GUILTY GA - Jorelys Rivera, 7, Canton, 2 Dec 2011 - #5

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Can you sue the DOC as the parent of an adult, non-dependant offspring? He was over 18, living on his own, never going to be a financial provider for the family; they could never hope to be dependant on a LWOP offspring.

I found this:

"This question is important, because cases interpreting Article III of the Constitution prohibit federal courts from hearing suits by plaintiffs who have not themselves suffered some kind of injury as a result of a defendant's misconduct. The Supreme Court has also placed further, prudential limits on who among the injured parties is entitled to bring a cause of action."

and later in same article...

"It is therefore virtually always going to be the state's violation of the adult child's rights themselves (rather than a direct attack on the parent's right to run her child's life) that will result in injuries to parents that might lead the parents to sue. And the predictable case in which such an injury would occur is when the government has used excessive, deadly force against a child and left the parents bereft of their offspring.


"Therefore, to the extent that parents of minor children have been granted standing to sue for the deaths of their children, the question becomes what one understands that loss to consist of.

"If one accepts the view that the age of majority extinguishes any constitutional right to a relationship with one's children, then one must assume that the essential ingredient of parental rights is control. Once a person has lost the right to control a child's activities and whereabouts, the killing of that child no longer deprives the parent of anything that is constitutionally cognizable. "

http://writ.news.findlaw.com/colb/20031231.html


I interpret that as, Ryan's parents (birth or adoptive, or his siblings) were not themselves injured by the DOC, therefore, their suit will not be heard. I don't think pain and suffering of the Brunns counts as injured, but I'm no lawyer.

And the DOC didn't kill him. No deadly force by a DOC employee. He killed himself. Voluntarily.

Personally, considering adoptive mama just filed bankruptcy, I'm wondering who'd volunteer to serve as the family lawyer. Mom and Dad aren't charged for any crimes so they don't get a lawyer pro-bono like Ryan did if they want to sue, assuming this is even a case that would be heard.

(And perhaps because of the reasons stated above, that's why RBs lawyer stated 'it's over'.)

But I'm no lawyer! :crazy: :seeya:

Anybody can sue anybody, doesn't mean they are going to win. I think the key would be the mental examination RB took on Wednesday showing that the state didn't have to put him on suicide-watch. There has to be certain criteria and supposedly RB didn't meet it.

As for personal injury attorneys, I don't know if they take cases where they ONLY get a percentage of the outcome....in other words, client pays nothing but attorney takes large percent after trial.
 
Anybody can sue anybody, doesn't mean they are going to win. I think the key would be the mental examination RB took on Wednesday showing that the state didn't have to put him on suicide-watch. There has to be certain criteria and supposedly RB didn't meet it.

As for personal injury attorneys, I don't know if they take cases where they ONLY get a percentage of the outcome....in other words, client pays nothing but attorney takes large percent after trial.

Crud, I am trying to find the post, but somewhere on FB, there was a lady who did rb's medical intake and she said it was weird because he was so calm and collected. Very polite and cooperative.

He said he knew right from wrong. It sounded like it was partially his idea to confess. I really think they thought he was ok, and gave no indication of needing to be on suicide watch.
 
IMO his family will submit a lawsuit against DOC because he was not on suicide watch. Attorney Cannon's statement "It's over" was sooooooo incorrect.

Has an obituary come out in the papers yet? Wonder if Ryan's birth-mother knows? Can a birth-mother sue the adoptive/foster parents? We need an attorney on this site.

Yes. A birth mother can sue, as in the case of Lisa Steinberg who was killed by her adoptive father, although the adoption was never finalized.

I can't imagine what grounds she would have to sue, in this case, though.
 
Anybody can sue anybody, doesn't mean they are going to win. I think the key would be the mental examination RB took on Wednesday showing that the state didn't have to put him on suicide-watch. There has to be certain criteria and supposedly RB didn't meet it.

As for personal injury attorneys, I don't know if they take cases where they ONLY get a percentage of the outcome....in other words, client pays nothing but attorney takes large percent after trial.

Sorry about the unintentional double post. I think the websleuths server had a siezure last night. When I could get on this morning, it was too late to delete or even edit. :crazy:

I agree with your post. Additionally, even if a case would be presented, it'd be a civil suit, I believe, which means a jury. I don't know how well (positively towards RB and his family) this whole kit and kaboodle would play out to a jury.

I did see this article last night.

http://chronicle.augusta.com/news/m...jorelys-rivera-committed-suicide?v=1327105615

Mental health staff at the Jackson prison evaluated him Wednesday and opted not to place him on suicide watch, according to Kristen Stancil, a Department of Corrections spokeswoman.

Failure to prevent suicide only violates the Constitution if a prison official or officials knew the prisoner was likely to take his life but deliberately disregarded it,she said.

Of course there is a profiler weighing in (in the article) implying (to me) he should have automatically been on suicide watch, but RB was put on a suicide watch for two weeks, he attempted nothing, gave no indication he was suicidal, and was again examined just the day before he killed himself, and still not found to be suicidal.

Ah well. It is what it is. If they (RBs family) attempt to sue, I'll be disgusted. :puke: That's the bottom line for me personally.
 
Crud, I am trying to find the post, but somewhere on FB, there was a lady who did rb's medical intake and she said it was weird because he was so calm and collected. Very polite and cooperative.

He said he knew right from wrong. It sounded like it was partially his idea to confess. I really think they thought he was ok, and gave no indication of needing to be on suicide watch.

BBM, he also said at the hearing when the judge asked if he would like to plead insanity 'No, I know right from wrong'. IMO, he planned his suicide for sometime. He knew at some point he would have an opportunity.

I wish we could hear more from his lawyers and other inmates he may have come in contact with in Cherokee. If only Dahmer, Gacy and Bundy had his attitude/conviction...
 
I'm not sure if this has been answered or not, was there a note left by him, stating why he commited sucide? I just don't know why they would keep him under watch and then let him go-unless the therapist didn't think he needed to be under watch again.

Also read an article stating the Police Cheif quit, or was terminated because the way the case was handeled, is that true too?? Sorry if these questions have already been answered, really need to go back and read the posts, just working all the time!!! Have a good day everybody!
 
I'm not sure if this has been answered or not, was there a note left by him, stating why he commited sucide? I just don't know why they would keep him under watch and then let him go-unless the therapist didn't think he needed to be under watch again.

Also read an article stating the Police Cheif quit, or was terminated because the way the case was handeled, is that true too?? Sorry if these questions have already been answered, really need to go back and read the posts, just working all the time!!! Have a good day everybody!


Yes, he did resign..

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/news/local/report-canton-police-violated-procedures-missing-g/nGTrL/
 
I'm not sure if this has been answered or not, was there a note left by him, stating why he commited sucide? I just don't know why they would keep him under watch and then let him go-unless the therapist didn't think he needed to be under watch again.

Also read an article stating the Police Cheif quit, or was terminated because the way the case was handeled, is that true too?? Sorry if these questions have already been answered, really need to go back and read the posts, just working all the time!!! Have a good day everybody!

Nothing reported yet about any note.
 
I'm not sure if this has been answered or not, was there a note left by him, stating why he commited sucide? I just don't know why they would keep him under watch and then let him go-unless the therapist didn't think he needed to be under watch again.

Also read an article stating the Police Cheif quit, or was terminated because the way the case was handeled, is that true too?? Sorry if these questions have already been answered, really need to go back and read the posts, just working all the time!!! Have a good day everybody!

I doubt he left a suicide note. Only 1/3 of the people who commit suicide leaves notes behind.

Yes, the Police Cheif resigned over his handling of this case. I am sure it was a pressured resignation.

Since he did not try to commit suicide in Cherokee County they probably thought he was ajusting to being locked up and saw no need to put him on suicide watch in Jackson especially since he had voluntarily plead guilty to the crimes.

Imo, he had this planned out before he confessed. He knew he was going to be a target once he got to Jackson which holds some very scary hardcore violent criminals with nothing to lose. Even though they had him in a cell by himself for his own protection I imagine the inmates where yelling threats to him from the time he got there until shortly before he died.

I dont think he killed himself because he was wrought with guilt. I think he was a cowardly weasle and was afraid of what his life was going to be like among prisoners who would hate his guts and would be looking for every opportunity they had to take him down.

He couldnt stand the thought of him being attacked and possibly killed but he sure didnt give one whit about Jorelys being terrified and scared to death of him as he was torturing and burtalizing her before he murdered her.:furious:
 
RIght, this is what I am curious about as well..was "unfounded" a LE remark or a media way of saying "the parents or other parties involved didn't take it seriously"

"Unfounded" is a term used in child protective investigations to indicate having not enough evidence proving allegations.

Child Protective Services Reports

Substantiated An investigation disposition by a CPS investigator concludes, based on a preponderance of evidence collected, that the allegation of mistreatment, as defined by state law and CPS procedure requirements, is true.

Unsubstantiated An investigation disposition by a CPS investigator concludes that, under state law and CPS procedure requirements, there is either no collected evidence or less than a preponderance of evidence to substantiate that maltreatment occurred.

Screened-Out Referral This is a report to CPS that does not contain the components of a CPS report. The report is logged, documented on Form 453 (Child Abuse/Neglect Worksheet) and an IDS form (Internal Data System) is completed. A referral to available resources may be made.


NOTE: For comparisons to previous years, Substantiated cases were Confirmed, and Unsubstantiated is the total of the previous categories of Unconfirmed and Unfounded cases

http://www.dfcsdata.dhr.state.ga.us/glossary.htm
 
Hi all,
There is just a "little" part of me that wonders how a 20 yo could do this. His suicide says to me that he couldn't live with himself. Good. Most perps don't care at all - they just move on to the next victim. Just wondering if anyone had insight into his childhood or life experiences. TIA. 47 pages makes me think I will not be able to catch up, so I'm asking for input! Tx!
 
I think that he could've lived with himself easily had he not gotten caught and totally nailed by the evidence. I think that he couldn't live as a convicted child molester and killer in prison, which is a totally different thing.

I do hope more comes to light about his past though. His past is such a blank.
 
Hi all,
There is just a "little" part of me that wonders how a 20 yo could do this. His suicide says to me that he couldn't live with himself. Good. Most perps don't care at all - they just move on to the next victim. Just wondering if anyone had insight into his childhood or life experiences. TIA. 47 pages makes me think I will not be able to catch up, so I'm asking for input! Tx!

IMO, RB showed sociopathic tendencies and was a pedophile and a sadist. Some of Jorelys injuries indicated he enjoyed abusing and torturing her before he smashed her face and skull by repeatedly beating her over the head with her own rollerskate. He planned her abduction, molestation and torture and, likely her death, ahead of time. He'd been looking forward to this, IMO, since he moved out on his own for the first time the month before.

He showed no emotion at his arrest or at his first hearing. When the evidence against him started coming back (plentiful physical evidence pointing directly at him) he decided to plead guilty. I believe, as some others do, that he planned to kill himself the moment he plead guilty. He's a coward, fearful of prison and his potential pain and suffering there. I think he also thought of it as a '*advertiser censored** you' to the world at large.

GRAPHICHe candidly and very matter of factly explained to a courtroom at large, the judge, and Jorelys mother how he lured her, molested her (well, he lied and said he didn't actually touch her, made her touch herself), slashed her throat (left out how he stabbed her in the chest and FACE), went to get garbage bags to dump her in, saw she still wasn't dead, so he beat her repeatedly over the head with her own roller skate. Then he dumped her in the garbage compactor and ran it again and again. He explained all this like he was describing how his first day at work went. His "I'm sorry" sounded as heartfelt as you'd say "Guzundheit" to a stranger on a bus.

IMO, you can't molest, torture and beat a seven year old girl to death and actually have a conscience. There are molesters who kill suddenly out of fear of getting caught. Many will smother or strangle the victim. Horrible, but quick and far less painful than what RB did. All indications are that molesting was only part of his pleasure. He enjoyed watching her suffer, he enjoyed her terror, he enjoyed inflicting pain. (Why stab someone repeatedly in the face?)

He's a sociopath (IMO) who doesn't feel empathy for other people. Therefore, he can't feel guilt. He only thinks in terms of himself. IMO, he was scared spitless of his future in max security prison. He wanted to check out on his own terms. And he wanted it over quickly. All of these things (fear, terror and a quick death) are things he took great joy in depriving from his victim.

Also, if he had a conscience, IMO, his guilt would have begun immediately. He wouldn't have gone shopping with friends, smoked pot and meth, watched football, pretended to help look for Jorelys, yaddah, yaddah, yaddah that weekend while everyone was looking for Jorelys. He'd have confessed or killed himself over that weekend. All my opinion here.

What we know about him ...
RB was a foster child who was adopted. We don't know exactly why and when he was given up and or adopted. His adoptive parents took in/adopted a BUNCH of foster kids all at one time, or close to it, and it looks like mom was living off the stipend checks and did not work. Mom supposedly homeschool, but RB 'dropped out' in the 10th grade. RB played football and basketball with a league for a few years before dropping out, but the coach said his parents never came to the games/practice. Coach said it was odd because homeschooled kids' parents are usually VERY involved.

They originally lived in NY but came to Georgia 'hoping things would get better.' We have no idea what was 'bad' in NY. They also lived in VA a few years ago, but there was a molestation allegation against RB in VA, a female child relative. Perhaps not so welcome in VA anymore after that.

Neighbors in Dahlonega have said they've called the cops on the Brunn boys a lot for smoking pot on their front porch, punching their own dog, domestic violence issues. There is a new allegation of child molestation against Brunn in Lumpkin county that came to light when the GBI went investigating.

Mom was receiving adoption stipends from NY through last year. Just declared bankruptcy the day RB killed Jorelys.

None of his siblings or parents (adoptive, step or birth) showed up at a single court hearing from what we can tell.

Did I leave anything out?
 
I think that he could've lived with himself easily had he not gotten caught and totally nailed by the evidence. I think that he couldn't live as a convicted child molester and killer in prison, which is a totally different thing.

I do hope more comes to light about his past though. His past is such a blank.

Lol, you said that better, and with a lot less words, than I did. Kudos!

Oh, and I agree 100%. :seeya:
 
IMO, RB showed sociopathic tendencies and was a pedophile and a sadist. Some of Jorelys injuries indicated he enjoyed abusing and torturing her before he smashed her face and skull by repeatedly beating her over the head with her own rollerskate. He planned her abduction, molestation and torture and, likely her death, ahead of time. He'd been looking forward to this, IMO, since he moved out on his own for the first time the month before.

He showed no emotion at his arrest or at his first hearing. When the evidence against him started coming back (plentiful physical evidence pointing directly at him) he decided to plead guilty. I believe, as some others do, that he planned to kill himself the moment he plead guilty. He's a coward, fearful of prison and his potential pain and suffering there. I think he also thought of it as a '*advertiser censored** you' to the world at large.

GRAPHICHe candidly and very matter of factly explained to a courtroom at large, the judge, and Jorelys mother how he lured her, molested her (well, he lied and said he didn't actually touch her, made her touch herself), slashed her throat (left out how he stabbed her in the chest and FACE), went to get garbage bags to dump her in, saw she still wasn't dead, so he beat her repeatedly over the head with her own roller skate. Then he dumped her in the garbage compactor and ran it again and again. He explained all this like he was describing how his first day at work went. His "I'm sorry" sounded as heartfelt as you'd say "Guzundheit" to a stranger on a bus.

IMO, you can't molest, torture and beat a seven year old girl to death and actually have a conscience. There are molesters who kill suddenly out of fear of getting caught. Many will smother or strangle the victim. Horrible, but quick and far less painless than what RB did. All indications are that molesting was only part of his pleasure. He enjoyed watching her suffer, he enjoyed her terror, he enjoyed inflicting pain. (Why stab someone repeatedly in the face?)

He's a sociopath (IMO) who doesn't feel empathy for other people. Therefore, he can't feel guilt. He only thinks in terms of himself. IMO, he was scared spitless of his future in max security prison. He wanted to check out on his own terms. And he wanted it over quickly. All of these things (fear, terror and a quick death) are things he took great joy in depriving from his victim.

Also, if he had a conscience, IMO, his guilt would have begun immediately. He wouldn't have gone shopping with friends, smoked pot and meth, watched football, pretended to help look for Jorelys, yaddah, yaddah, yaddah that weekend while everyone was looking for Jorelys. He'd have confessed or killed himself over that weekend. All my opinion here.

What we know about him ...
RB was a foster child who was adopted. We don't know exactly why and when he was given up and or adopted. His adoptive parents took in/adopted a BUNCH of foster kids all at one time, or close to it, and it looks like mom was living off the stipend checks and did not work. Mom supposedly homeschool, but RB 'dropped out' in the 10th grade. RB played football and basketball with a league for a few years before dropping out, but the coach said his parents never came to the games/practice. Coach said it was odd because homeschooled kids' parents are usually VERY involved.

They originally lived in NY but came to Georgia 'hoping things would get better.' We have no idea what was 'bad' in NY. They also lived in VA a few years ago, but there was a molestation allegation against RB in VA, a female child relative. Perhaps not so welcome in VA anymore after that.

Neighbors in Dahlonega have said they've called the cops on the Brunn boys a lot for smoking pot on their front porch, punching their own dog, domestic violence issues. There is a new allegation of child molestation against Brunn in Lumpkin county that came to light when the GBI went investigating.

Mom was receiving adoption stipends from NY through last year. Just declared bankruptcy the day RB killed Jorelys.

None of his siblings or parents (adoptive, step or birth) showed up at a single court hearing from what we can tell.

Did I leave anything out?
Hi Magdalyn, and thank you for all that info. I didn't know the details as well as you. As I started reading your reply I had to get up for a drink and a cigarette, and I don't smoke anymore. Absolutely horrifying and disgusting. Thanks again for taking the time to fill me in. And I agree with you - jail, especially PRISON scared the **** out of him. As another poster said (sorry for not naming the poster) the other prisoners were yelling at him - he would be safe NOWHERE. They are all cowards.
 
Magdalyn:

:goodpost: :thumb:

Great summary of the case, and I especially appreciate this part:

IMO, you can't molest, torture and beat a seven year old girl to death and actually have a conscience. There are molesters who kill suddenly out of fear of getting caught. Many will smother or strangle the victim. Horrible, but quick and far less painless than what RB did. All indications are that molesting was only part of his pleasure. He enjoyed watching her suffer, he enjoyed her terror, he enjoyed inflicting pain. (Why stab someone repeatedly in the face?)

For a brief second, I was starting to wonder if mayyyybe rb did get freaked out and kill her because he was afraid she would tell and he would get caught. But yeah, there have been other molesters/rapists who killed their victims more *ahem* "humanely" than this idiot did. Strangle, shoot, smother. He was a sick *advertiser censored*.
 

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