General Discussion Thread #1 -Bail Hearing

[Carol70]

It was in the affidavit ( see http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/19/world/africa/south-africa-pistorius-affadavit/index.html ). These are the specific parts I'm referring to:

"I felt trapped as my bedroom door was locked and I have limited mobility on my stumps."

"I went back into the bedroom and grabbed my cricket bat to bash open the toilet door. A panel or panels broke off and I found the key on the floor and unlocked and opened the door."

Last word then I really going to bed haha..

It would not be seen as unusual to have his bedroom door locked...besides the usual security around the perimeter of the homes here, a lot of homes separate the sleeping areas from the lounge/dining areas with security gates and slam locks in the event of an invasion during the night, the intruders can have access to the lounge areas etc but not the bedrooms where the families lie asleep.

 

[Carol70]

yep yep yep!

and if one is that afraid of intruders and violent crime, why would you leave a ladder outside if left by workers? wouldn't you put it in the garage or just ask the workers to not leave them lying around? more bs imo

I know, very questionable!!!

 

[redheadedgal]

It would not be seen as unusual to have his bedroom door locked...besides the usual security around the perimeter of the homes here, a lot of homes separate the sleeping areas from the lounge/dining areas with security gates and slam locks in the event of an invasion during the night, the intruders can have access to the lounge areas etc but not the bedrooms where the families lie asleep.

so he locked the bedroom door for safety but 1) left the sliding glass door open 2) with ladders lying around outside?

if one is so viligent about attempting to be safe, this doesn't make any sense imo.

 

[NocturnalLady]

These are the things that really bother me:

1. He knows there are ladders (plural) left around by contractors, so he's worried about someone coming in through the bathroom window, but has no hesitation about leaving a sliding glass door open.
2. He manages to drag a fan in, close a sliding glass door, blinds, and curtains without any issues ("limited" mobility my *advertiser censored*), but with all that light coming in he doesn't notice his girlfriend isn't in his bed? It clearly wasn't dark when he first got up or else he wouldn't have had to close all those things besides the door.
3. I know a lot about gun safety, and even in your own house you don't have the right to shoot to kill. In fact, shooting to kill is only really allowed when your life is in imminent danger, not just when you think there *might* be an intruder.
4. So he shouts out for her to call police, but then he shoots her, and then puts his legs on, and then breaks down the door, and then calls a friend or calls for someone, and then decides that waiting for an ambulance would take too long, so he'll carry her downstairs and start doing CPR instead? Ok, so he has faith that the police will get there quickly, but not an ambulance?

I think they got into a fight and he killed her. I don't know if he planned to kill her before the evening began, but I sure as hell don't buy the intruder theory.

I agree. If he's someone so paranoid and traumatized by previous robberies that he sleeps with a gun under his bed (as he states have happened to him) then why on earth would he leave windows and sliding glass doors to balconies open? Balconies are an OBVIOUS entry point for intruders.

Also, the sequence of the calls he made does not make sense to me. If this was a true accident I think he would have called the equivalent of 911 first.

Also he has a dog. Where was the dog? Why didn't he wonder why the dog was not barking like it might have at an intruder?

What about the reports we have heard that the police were called to the house about 4 hours before the shooting? The neighbors heard a big fight then and the police said it was a domestic violence call.

 

[cityslick]

These are the things that really bother me:

1. He knows there are ladders (plural) left around by contractors, so he's worried about someone coming in through the bathroom window, but has no hesitation about leaving a sliding glass door open.
2. He manages to drag a fan in, close a sliding glass door, blinds, and curtains without any issues ("limited" mobility my *advertiser censored*), but with all that light coming in he doesn't notice his girlfriend isn't in his bed? It clearly wasn't dark when he first got up or else he wouldn't have had to close all those things besides the door.
3. I know a lot about gun safety, and even in your own house you don't have the right to shoot to kill. In fact, shooting to kill is only really allowed when your life is in imminent danger, not just when you think there *might* be an intruder.
4. So he shouts out for her to call police, but then he shoots her, and then puts his legs on, and then breaks down the door, and then calls a friend or calls for someone, and then decides that waiting for an ambulance would take too long, so he'll carry her downstairs and start doing CPR instead? Ok, so he has faith that the police will get there quickly, but not an ambulance?

I think they got into a fight and he killed her. I don't know if he planned to kill her before the evening began, but I sure as hell don't buy the intruder theory.

BBM

I thought the same thing (about shooting if only in danger) but this scenario actually happened in the states and apparently it sounds like it's not a forgone conclusion this person is in the wrong. I guess it depends on the law (state law).

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/201...s-kills-intruder-climbing-through-window?lite

Police said the shooting is a Castle Doctrine case and the Dallas County Grand Jury will decide whether or not the homeowner faces any charges.

 

[redheadedgal]

about those ladders--

in one of the online articles (guardian or mail or sun i think) there was video of a flyover of his house... it did not look like work was being done nor could i see any ladders but of course it might not have seen by the camera angle. his house and property looked pretty complete compared to a property nearby...

does anyone know where that video can be found? thx

 

[MissDiva]

BBM

I thought the same thing (about shooting if only in danger) but this scenario actually happened in the states and apparently it sounds like it's not a forgone conclusion this person is in the wrong. I guess it depends on the law (state law).

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/201...s-kills-intruder-climbing-through-window?lite

Police said the shooting is a Castle Doctrine case and the Dallas County Grand Jury will decide whether or not the homeowner faces any charges.

I understand what you're saying, but I looked up gun laws in South Africa, and even they have to have a reasonable belief that their life is in imminent danger.

And he has no excuse for not knowing the laws if he had at least one gun and was applying for permits for several more.

 

[redheadedgal]

South African law gives far more leeway to the use of force in self defence than many other countries. Anyone can respond with force if their life is in danger.

but, his life was NEVER "in danger"... will that be enough for the prosecution?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...er-charge-South-African-self-defence-law.html

 

[cityslick]

I understand what you're saying, but I looked up gun laws in South Africa, and even they have to have a reasonable belief that their life is in imminent danger.

And he has no excuse for not knowing the laws if he had at least one gun and was applying for permits for several more.

I agree, I think he's in trouble even if his story is 100% accurate. If he was ultra paranoid like that where any sound would set him off to start shooting, he probably shouldn't have owned a gun in the first place.

 

[Zinn]

Last word then I really going to bed haha..

It would not be seen as unusual to have his bedroom door locked...besides the usual security around the perimeter of the homes here, a lot of homes separate the sleeping areas from the lounge/dining areas with security gates and slam locks in the event of an invasion during the night, the intruders can have access to the lounge areas etc but not the bedrooms where the families lie asleep.

I totally accept that is the reality for many there. I just wanted to point out that, according to the affidavit, Oscar felt trapped in the bedroom due to the locked bedroom door. Therefore, it stands to reason Reeva was trapped in the bedroom, as well. So, hypothetically speaking, if Reeva felt threatened for whatever reason, the bathroom would have been the only place to hide, and all reports have stated the bathroom door was locked from the inside. Hopefully the State's response to the affidavit will shed light on whether Reeva had reason to feel threatened and hide somewhere. We don't yet know if it was a coincidence that the only potential hiding place for Reeva was locked by her from the inside prior to her death.

All of the above is JMO.

 

[Wondergirl]

I don't even know where to begin, that affidavit makes me so mad.

 

[scapa]

With respect, should this thread now be in the Crimes and Trials forum along with the criminal hoi-polloi? With so much attention on the differential treatment of celebrity defendants shouldn't OP be just another accused murderer here on the (very democratic) Websleuths?

Best,

S

 

[LJKaust]

It's very easy to fall asleep unintentionally and leave a balcony door open. I assumed that the door he was closing and the fan he was getting weren't in the bedroom??

 

[LJKaust]

With what we have heard officially, I believe him. If he bashed down the door with the bat, he could've been unaware that he was still holding it when he returned to the bedroom. I have been known to walk around the house looking for something that I am already holding/wearing :blushing:

Either way, he killed someone and should be punished.

 

[Estelle]

With what we have heard officially, I believe him. If he bashed down the door with the bat, he could've been unaware that he was still holding it when he returned to the bedroom. I have been known to walk around the house looking for something that I am already holding/wearing :blushing:

Either way, he killed someone and should be punished.

IMO once he bashed the door down with the cricket bat, surely he would have put it down there and rushed in to see if she was still breathing. He claims she was (but was she?) so surely he would have been in a hurry to phone security and an ambulance. So maybe he took the cricket bat back to the bedroom and left it at the bottom of the bed (as shown in City News diagrams) on his way to get his mobile? Then he went back to carry her down the stairs.

 

[jjenny]

I agree, I think he's in trouble even if his story is 100% accurate. If he was ultra paranoid like that where any sound would set him off to start shooting, he probably shouldn't have owned a gun in the first place.

Probably? He knew that he was not alone in the apartment. He knew the girl was in there. Yet when he hears noise in the bathroom he doesn't think she could be using the bathroom? I find that very bizarre.

 

[jjenny]

BBM

I thought the same thing (about shooting if only in danger) but this scenario actually happened in the states and apparently it sounds like it's not a forgone conclusion this person is in the wrong. I guess it depends on the law (state law).

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/201...s-kills-intruder-climbing-through-window?lite

Police said the shooting is a Castle Doctrine case and the Dallas County Grand Jury will decide whether or not the homeowner faces any charges.

That looks to be a completely different scenario, so I am not sure where is the parallel? In the Dallas case, the homeowner presumably shot an intruder climbing through the window. While Mr. Pistorius shot and killed his own girlfriend, who he knew was in his apartment.

 

[CountryGirl]

I want to see the forensics. IF she was in the bathroom (which we know she was--she was shot in there) and he truly yelled at her to call the police and yelled for the intruder to leave -- why would she be silent? She never opened her mouth before he started shooting through the door?

I want to see the angles of the bullets, crime scene photos of the open bathroom window (It is closed in the picture--when was it taken? Blinds don't look disturbed), how dark that bedroom really is...the bathroom door was open (main door), right? The window near the tub looks to be large enough to bring light into the room.

Anyone else/neighbors see ladders on his house before that night? Still there when police arrived?

I read a shell casing was found in the bedroom.

 

[onthecounter]

Maybe OP didn't use the cricket bat to gain entry to the bathroom, otherwise why would he replace it in the bedroom? Saying he used it for this may have been the only excuse he could come up with for there being blood on it.

What is not in question is that Reeva's blood is in the bedroom, whether or not she was shot in here. If the bat was moved from the bathroom to the bedroom there would be a trail of blood spots or even bloody footprints leading up to the bat. If the bat never left the bedroom and OP never returned to the bedroom then there wouldn't be this trail.

 

[LJKaust]

IMO once he bashed the door down with the cricket bat, surely he would have put it down there and rushed in to see if she was still breathing. He claims she was (but was she?) so surely he would have been in a hurry to phone security and an ambulance. So maybe he took the cricket bat back to the bedroom and left it at the bottom of the bed (as shown in City News diagrams) on his way to get his mobile? Then he went back to carry her down the stairs.

Bashes door down, walks in holding bat and sees that it's Reeva and of course this would likely get blood on the bat, goes back out of bathroom still holding bat, puts it down in bedroom and makes calls etc?