General Discussion Thread #1 -Bail Hearing

[Waddles]

Yep I know...this is why one needs to see the layout of the house. I find it very strange that the toilet was so small...in a house(mansion) the main bedroom, being Oscars, would no doubt have a full bathroom on suite...how was she shot in a small 1.4 toilet?? Unless she was in a guest loo AWAY from the main bedroom. In majority of homes, there is main bedroom with its own bathroom...and then a family bathroom which is a bath,shower, basin and a separate loo next to it. The size of the loo really throws me???

Where did you see it was a small 1.4 toilet? I saw pictures of a room that was quite spacious with large handbasin area to the right, will have another look

 

[Patticake]

Linked this a.m.

(((Two links not showing up in the quote ... )))

It has widely been reported that she was shot before going into the bathroom, and possibly hit with the bat.

What I was trying to ask was "were these reports brought up in this morning's bail hearing"? Because I don't think there was any official report of the first shot to the hip and the bat beating.

Since I missed the first part of the bail hearing, I may have missed it.

.

 

[Carol70]

Where did you see it was a small 1.4 toilet? I saw pictures of a room that was quite spacious with large handbasin area to the right, will have another look

I saw it this morning during the prosecutors arguments..said she had no where to move...anyhow, finally found a layout of the bathroom, not what I expected.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...itated-murder-girlfriend-Reeva-Steenkamp.html

Very usual layout.

 

[21merc7]

This may have already been posted, apologies if so. It explains the system somewhat and how it will all take place:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/feb/18/oscar-pistorius-legal-q-and-a

 

[cityslick]

Apparently here in the US it's possible to shoot an intruder simply for being an 'intruder'

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/201...s-kills-intruder-climbing-through-window?lite

Where is the story of the bloody cricket bat coming from? Did they allude to that this morning because I don't think I heard it. Also, being shot before the bathroom, where is that being verified from because they didn't mention she was shot outside the bathroom. They said he went up to the bathroom and shot her.

My biggest issue with making judgements based off of sketchy facts is sometimes those 'facts' are nothing of the sort.

 

[Lola]

yes, the prosecutor said the bathroom was 1.4m by 1.4m but on citypress.za they show a layout where the toilet was in a little room with door seperate from tub, shower and sinks. looking for the link...can't find it but it showed where they thought the shots were fired from.

i'm listening to the BBC now and the reporter said that the defense argued "even if there was an argument" which surprised me...so the prosecutor must have witnesses or something with respect to the call made earlier about a disturbance.... and here in citypress citypress

sorry but this OP claims not to be violent, yet he has at least a couple of guns and outstanding applications for licenses for SIX more?

 

[Sarahlou]

this tweet from today - City Press Online @City_Press

RT @karynmaughan: Nel: Were 2 people in house. The deceased planned to stay over that night. Deceased shot 3 times in toilet #OscarPistorius

there were only 3 shots fired or they found evidence of one or more in the bedroom. perhaps we'll hear more tomorrow.

I think we'll have to wait until the trial to hear all the exact details. A lot seems to be missing.

 

[Alyce]

I thought about that. Which made me think, okay she locked the door b/c they were new lovers and she was still bashful about bathroom activities. However, doing yoga in front of someone would fall into new lover bashfulness, and really, who believes they had only dated 2 months and suddenly he is watching t.v. while she does yoga - in the bedroom on Valentine celebration????

That is one part I find hard to believe........ they were still a new couple, they had, allegedly, each changed their plans of being with others, in order to spend the night before Valentines together. Reeva had been tweeting about Valentines Day and asking others what surprises they had planned so it is fair to assume she was excited about the day itself.

And yet, we are supposed to believe she did yoga - presumably in a separate room from him..........and he watched TV ?

Add to that........ surely anyone knows that the last thing you do, with a severely injured person, is move them ........ but not only does he move Reeva from her position in the bathroom, he picks her up and carries her downstairs, which would surely compound any internal injuries she has sustained ?

 

[Carol70]

I've just read his full statement, it sounds very plausible were it not for speculation regarding earlier calls to security etc etc... It also clears up inconsistencies about kicking/ bashing door with bat and a few other things...
For anyone who wants to read it:
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/in-full-oscar-pistoriuss-defence-affidavit-8501265.html

 

[Patticake]

The thing that doesn't work is that the cricket bat was found bloodied but in the bedroom -does he return to the bedroom to drop off the bat?
That's what I don't get, where the bat was found

I remember reading a couple of days ago that the bat was found at the bottom of the bed.

I can't verify how accurate the report is.

 

[ontariolynn]

Wouldn't he call out to her to or to whoever was in the bathroom first to find out where his girlfriend was? It seems instinctive that someone would call out "Reeva?" to see if it was her in there, even if he was "scared." He is toast as was stated earlier.

Would he not call 911 or security on the grounds first, as so he says he heard a noise from the bathroom, not even the bathroom in his bedroom, I could see someone using a gun when they see someone in the room, but they are not even in the room, it is all so very fishy, and starting to be well staged by his Legal Team I do hope his team is not as good as Johnny C. OJ's Lawyer, but look where OJ is spending the rest of his life and has been for a few years, and will till he dies!
Who thinks he will get bail, I do not, I think the judge is going to play out this entire scene, then who knows??

 

[gitana1]

OK his family is making me furious .. and his past is making me furious. Here we have a guy that because he is FAMOUS and some kind of HERO because he can run fast on blades (which frankly I always thought gave him a massive unfair advantage) was given a pass on many incidents which showed that he had a violent streak and should have been taken as a warning sign. PERHAPS if his stupid family wasn't so invested in enabling him he wouldn't have committed this horrible crime and Reeva would still be alive. I hope they wake up to themselves at some stage in the future and admit he is not the great hero they wish the world to think he is, admit that they played a large part in creating a monster, and come down from their high horse, and show some humility.

If they keep going down the road they are on they are only going to alienate themselves from society even more.

Your son has committed a horrible crime, he had shown a propensity for violence before this horrible crime that he failed to address and that you helped him sweep under the rug, a girl has died. He needs to take responsibility for that, and you need to take responsibility for enabling him his entire life.

I'm sorry but I think this is horribly unfair. I also don't think it's right to call his family "stupid". There was a probable murder by their son. How do you glean from that that they were "enabling him his entire life"? Do you know this family?

All I see is a father who stated that the public takes as much glee building someone into a hero as they do tearing them down. Thats true. Schadenfreude exists The father doesn't come right out and says his son is 100% innocent in that quote. In fact, he says they are realistic and know what he faces.

I'm not sure why they should bashed for their statements or for Oscars actions.

Read from his affadavit into court:



http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Oscar-describes-how-Reeva-died-20130219

So let me get this straight. Reeva's in bed. He goes out to the balcony (he says he has mobility on his stumps), hears a noise, must go back to the bed to get his gun....but doesn't notice that Reeva isn't there? Wouldn't he think to wake her up or say "did you hear that?"

I would love to see a layout of the house. Where is the balcony? Where is the bathroom?

What kind of burglar locks themselves in the toilet? That just doesn't make sense to me.

Wouldn't he call out to her to or to whoever was in the bathroom first to find out where his girlfriend was? It seems instinctive that someone would call out "Reeva?" to see if it was her in there, even if he was "scared." He is toast as was stated earlier.

There are a lot of men who would not call out or ask their mate, "did you hear that"? One of my brothers and my law partner are two such men. They view protection of the home and the family as their domain. They take the responsibility very seriously. Both have described to me walking quietly around their homes with a gun or a bat, leaving a sleeping wife in the bed while they check for intruders and check all possible entries. I warned the one who was carying a gun about accidentally shooting a child or their wife in the night. That almost happened to my godfather in fact. He heard anoise, jumped out of bed, grabbed his gun and almost shot what hE thought was an intruder in the kitchen until the figure said, "Al, it's me!". It was his wife.

Accidental shootings of family happen like this all the time. And South Africa is a vastly more dangerous country than the U.S. so people there are even more prone to instant fear of an intruder and rushing to defend the home.

That being said, the facts suggest this was not an accident.

But I wanted to point out that for many men, their first instinct would not be tO check on their supposedly sleeping wife or to ask their women to confirm a scary noise. It is to jump up and defend. Frankly, I think that comes from worry over the responsibility of protecting their family and home and fear they may not be up to the task.

 

[cityslick]

That's pretty much why I'm hesitant to jump to any conclusions. At face value, it certainly appears that his story is weak but there is a ton that we do not know and even some of things we do know hasn't been verified as fact yet. I brought up the steroids angle a few posts ago because I think it's a legitimate scenario and in that sense it could of played out exactly how he said or pretty close to it. This would be the only other way to explain his grief outside of the obvious 'he's faking it'.

Using the word accident would still be pretty weak though, he's responsible for his actions, the same way a drunk driver never means to kill someone with a car. I'm sure they are pretty sorry and never meant to hurt a fly, but yet there it is. Could be not that much different here if steroids were involved.

 

[Carol70]

I agree gitana. Also, I would like to point out that in SA, it is quite common for intruders to gain entry via bathroom windows...home owners are quite lax with security on these as they are normally small...the modis operandi is to push a child through them who then goes and opens up other points of entry.

 

[Cherry]

I still dont understand; there are claims that a friend arrived and witnessed him carrying her down the stairs; so is the bathroom upstairs or down? I need a better lay out of the home; from the inside. It's so hard to follow this case too because it's international.

 

[Cherry]

Oh; Thanks for the article I jst scrolled back and read it.

I'm sorry; I don't believe him at all. I believe the crime scene will tell another story all together. Blood always does. I for one; hope he doesn't attain bail. This is just me; but at the Olympics several things that happened really turned me off of him; totally. It was attitude, first impressions, things he said...his over all demeanor. I actually disliked him. Now this.

 

[Inobu]

When a story is fabricated its perspective is dynamic but layout is one dimensional. The author only sees the event from a self preservation perspective and created the events based on the direction they want the story to go or look.

Here is his affidavit

Pistorius describes going to bed and waking up in the early hours of Feb. 14. He said he went out to the balcony to bring in a fan and close the sliding doors and blinds, according to the Associated Press, which obtained the affidavit.

He heard a noise in bathroom, and "felt a sense of terror rushing over me," the affidavit said.

Pistorius, who is a double amputee, said he was not wearing his prosthetic, but he has mobility on his stumps.

"I believed that someone had entered my house," the affidavit said. "I was too scared to switch a light on. I grabbed my 9mm pistol from underneath my bed."

He said he screamed to Steenkamp to call the police, thinking she was still in bed. He noticed the bathroom window was open, and he thought an intruder was hiding in the separate enclosed toilet, according to the affidavit.

"As I did not have my prosthetic legs on and felt extremely vulnerable, I knew I had to protect Reeva and myself," the affidavit said. "I believed that when the intruder/s came out of the toilet we would be in grave danger."

Pistorius said he fired shots and shouted again at Steenkamp. When he realized she wasn't in bed, "it dawned on me that it could have been Reeva who was in the toilet," the affidavit said.

Pistorius then said he put on his prosthetic legs, broke the toilet door open with a cricket bat and found Steenkamp shot inside, then ran downstairs with her.

Because the story is fabricated it is one dimensional and he is the only person presented in the story.

He had three point of interaction or acknowledgment of Reeva's presents and none presented itself as being odd.

1. Leaving the Bed to retrieve the fan.
2. Returning to the bed for the gun,
3. Instruction to call 911 with no response.

In reality he would have had to repeat his instruction to call the police to Reeva. There is a transition from the sleep state to the coherent state. The command "Call 911 or what ever " would not have been processed by a sleeping person on the first statement. Reeva would have started a communication sequence with OP. He would have had to posed the situation brief to her (Someones in the house!) and and reiterate the "Call 911" command. This dialog would have verified Reeva location also identifying her location from her voice. This would have prevented her from being caught in the middle of the situation.

A non response would have initiated another dimension to the event. Which sets up an entirely different event sequence. Her non response would start another thought process placing her in the bathroom which would either be a lower threat or elevated threat which would pose a hostage situation.

In any case the story does not reflect a multi dimensional perspective. It is expressed in a singular perspective with no interaction with a second person (Reeva).

OP indicated that he suspected an intruder based on the open window in the bathroom. The toilet is in a secondary room of the bathroom. This means that the "intruder" would have been trapped in the smaller toilet room.

Most fabricated stories unravel because the mind does not register time. The elapsed time between events are not tracked even in real life.

Have you ever noticed on "Cops" that people are often bare footed during these crisis events. Why? because they don't have time to put on their shoes. The time to put on a prosthetic leg or two is longer than putting on a pair of slippers or untied sneakers.

In any case the sequence of events, the time laps and the lack of interaction with Reeva does not match up. The story is segmented and sets up a hypothetical situation

His need for a prosthetic leg hinders his story as it induces laps in time opening the door for thought processes that should have reduced the notion of an intruder.

I think the sequence of events is more in line with

The bat was first. The gun was second and the intruder story was last.

Inobu

 

[stumpybear]

First I like to say I am so glad I found this site. A lot of facts still to see. Early reports stated that Reeva was shot in the bedroom and may have found refuge in the toilet room. If so wouldnt blood splatter be found in the bedroom.? Secondly, was reading that there was some discussion on premeditated murder at the bail hearing. OP stands at the bathroom door and fires 3 shots into the door. My thinking he is intending to harm or kill a
nyone on the other side. Still alot of questions need answered. Hope they have a good forensics department.
Inobu...That is great stuff!!

 

[Carol70]

I think mention should be made that he has the best of the best on his team from private forensics to his lawyers....I imagine that they would never submit his statement with any details that couldn't be backed up or refuted? I'm curious to see what information the defence requested from the prosecution to be handed over first thing tomorrow?? Must be some kind of evidence that can back up his version of events??

 

[ontariolynn]

Was a shot in the bedroom mentioned this morning? I thought they only alluded to the bat being used on the door?

.

No not mentioned, bat only as used for breaking down the bathroom after he fired shots, I think we are hearing a lot of things that are pure speculation, I am only going on what was presented today in court by both legal teams!