General Discussion Thread #2

[shane13]

IO Botha stated at the bail hearing that there was no signs of trauma on her body, with the exception of the bullet wounds. Can he be charged with lying then???

Many possible answers from him. He is not forensics, evidence incomplete, didn;t understad the Q, etc. and maybe there was even cooperation with the Magistrate like in the movie "Dial M for Murder". Probably not, but I don't know their legal system and what they can do--like in the US cops, feds can lie their heads off to a suspect.

 

[lexycat]

The defense has some major problems. Why didn't he notice she wasn't in bed anymore? If you believe there is an intruder, don't you quickly scan the room for your girlfriend, to make sure she is safe?

Why didn't he call out to the person in the bathroom before shooting through the door? If it was her, just using the toilet, why didn't she answer?

Why did she lock the door and take cell phones into the bathroom? Sounds like she was afraid, and was not just using the toilet.

And if he did think there was an intruder, locked in his bathroom, why not call the cops, and stand outside the door with the weapon? You could easily shoot if they tried to come out and harm you. Why shoot 4 deadly shots w/out confirming the fact?

I think he is toast. :jail:

All good questions that I would like to know the answers to as well.

Was she afraid when OP yelled at the intruder, or was she afraid of him (OP)??

 

[lexycat]

My question is to anyone familiar with SA legal system...Can police officers lie to a magistrate at a bail hearing? i.e. stating no trauma when in fact her skull was crushed.

 

[joe jones]

I have significant doubts about the bat being used, Botha was asked if there were any other injuries under oath (that is perjury under any legal system and is a serious charge)

the autospsy had been done prior to the bail hearing and the defence would most likely have had a copy

if OP had bashed her with bat then he would surely have told his lawyers, and the affidavit would not have gone into details, he was not required at the bail hearing to provide many details about the event, all he had to do was show he was not a threat to the public or violent or a flight risk

why would her father say if OP story is true we may be able to forgive him if he has been told OP bashed his daughters head in

why would an experienced prosecutor not tell the Judge the fact that would have meant OP was denied bail

if he did hit her with bat then states case is proven, I wait to see if this is further speculation or fact

plus Botha said he attended autopsy which makes his lie under oath even more serious

 

[natsound]

Exactly, and whoever it was that told him not to wait for paramedics and take her to hospital obviously was unaware of the seriousness of her injuries. Anyone with any sense would not even attempt to carry a profusely bleeding person downstairs with blood pouring from her wounds (not to mention then have the intention of trying to get them out the door and into a car) absolutely unbelievable. She should have been tended to in the bathroom, especially since professional help was on its way.

I wonder if he did not disclose the injuries to that person over the phone. Either that, or he's blatantly lying in his affidavit. I don't understand the lying about things that can be easily proven/disproven.

 

[natsound]

I have significant doubts about the bat being used, Botha was asked if there were any other injuries under oath (that is perjury under any legal system and is a serious charge)

the autospsy had been done prior to the bail hearing and the defence would most likely have had a copy

if OP had bashed her with bat then he would surely have told his lawyers, and the affidavit would not have gone into details, he was not required at the bail hearing to provide many details about the event, all he had to do was show he was not a threat to the public or violent or a flight risk

why would her father say if OP story is true we may be able to forgive him if he has been told OP bashed his daughters head in

why would an experienced prosecutor not tell the Judge the fact that would have meant OP was denied bail

if he did hit her with bat then states case is proven, I wait to see if this is further speculation or fact

plus Botha said he attended autopsy which makes his lie under oath even more serious

I'm with ya. I'm very skeptical about this new claim.

 

[whitedove]

I have significant doubts about the bat being used, Botha was asked if there were any other injuries under oath (that is perjury under any legal system and is a serious charge)

the autospsy had been done prior to the bail hearing and the defence would most likely have had a copy

if OP had bashed her with bat then he would surely have told his lawyers, and the affidavit would not have gone into details, he was not required at the bail hearing to provide many details about the event, all he had to do was show he was not a threat to the public or violent or a flight risk

why would her father say if OP story is true we may be able to forgive him if he has been told OP bashed his daughters head in

why would an experienced prosecutor not tell the Judge the fact that would have meant OP was denied bail

if he did hit her with bat then states case is proven, I wait to see if this is further speculation or fact

plus Botha said he attended autopsy which makes his lie under oath even more serious

The experianced prosecuter is up for murder charges himself, he may be short of cash and OP says, get me off and I will give you some cash to fight your case, we now know OP's brother is also up for a murder charge, can we believe anything anymore....

http://news.sky.com/

 

[onthecounter]

Has it been confirmed that she was shot through the hand? And that this was with the same bullet that went through her head?

If this is the case, she was already in a defensive position to protect herself from being shot in the head, I would assume she would only assume this defensive position after already having been shot at at least once (either the bullet that missed her or the one to the hip).

So given this, she must have been conscious before the shot to the head, so she must have screamed giving away her identity to OP before he shot her in the head.

MOO

 

[danzn16]

I have a dumb question. Maybe it cannot be answered until trial and evidence though.

Didn't OP's attorney say they found a shell casing in the loo?

Wouldn't all the casings be where OP was standing? Guess one could get knocked in during the time of getting her and carrying downstairs. Or, is the loo the sink part before the toilet cubicle?

Wouldn't LE look for how many according to the holes in the door and the bullet wounds? Did they collect that amount? Were more bullets shot?

You make many good points some of which I haven't thought of yet. And I don't think some others have thought of or understand because they don't know how semi auto firearms work. A shell casing is what comes out of the back/top of the gun when a gun fires. It usually flies out to the side or behind the shooter. It is not the bullet which would be lodged in whatever you intended to shoot, the casings are a separate part that fly a separate way (they aren't a danger). OPs lawyer said there was a shell casing in the loo which Is the toilet. The only way this could be would be a shot occurred will OP was in the bathroom with the door open. Otherwise all the casings would be outside be bathroom door. Did they focus on this at trial??? This is major. Did they confirm his story that all bullets went through the door or not?

 

[natsound]

Nair "also said the accused must not return to scene of the shooting, he cannot talk to residents except Stander family and contractors."

Who are the Stander family? Why can OP talk to them?

Why would he need/want to talk to contractors?

Stander is the property official that OP spoke with over the phone that night. It's in the affidavit.... not sure of exact wording.

 

[natsound]

Has it been confirmed that she was shot through the hand? And that this was with the same bullet that went through her head?

If this is the case, she was already in a defensive position to protect herself from being shot in the head, I would assume she would only assume this defensive position after already having been shot at at least once (either the bullet that missed her or the one to the hip).

So given this, she must have been conscious before the shot to the head, so she must have screamed giving away her identity to OP before he shot her in the head.

I remember hearing right hip, right elbow, and head. No shot to the hand.

 

[joe jones]

The experianced prosecuter is up for murder charges himself, he may be short of cash and OP says, get me off and I will give you some cash to fight your case, we now know OP's brother is also up for a murder charge, can we believe anything anymore....

http://news.sky.com/

Botha is a police officer, I meant the prosecutor who was arguing for the state to try to prevent OP from getting bail

 

[natsound]

I believe that the locked bedroom door he is talking about is the one leading to the rest of the house.

In looking at the floor plan, it appeared that the bedroom leads into a hallway/wardrobe area that has no door. In turn, the hallway/wardrobe pathway winds into the bathroom area.

Anyone remember or have a link to the floor plan?

I watched the CNN video, and I am only seeing one door, between the bedroom and the hall. Am I missing something?

 

[Carol70]

My question is to anyone familiar with SA legal system...Can police officers lie to a magistrate at a bail hearing? i.e. stating no trauma when in fact her skull was crushed.

Absolutely not. That is perjury and Botha will land up in serious trouble.

And a quick point re Carl Pistorius, it is standard procedure to initally charge someone with culpable homicide in the event of an accident when someone is killed, regardless if it was your fault or not.

 

[JTribley]

The only account of the events is from OP. His account must stand an onslaught of scrutiny. The truth will always withstand it where as a fabricated story will crumble to pieces.

Because Reeva is not here to provide some accountancy to the events the investigation must rely on the evidence to match with that written in the account (affidavit).

OP has done a good job of addressing a lot of situations but I don't think he remember to do one thing. Clear the ipads browsers. If he did it still creates an issue, why clear the browser that time of the morning?

See the web browser always documents the page and time you hit enter in its history file. If that browser has a time point anywhere between 3:00 am and 3:19 then there was ambient light in the room. Also the location of Reeva found and would refute the blacked out room scenario.

The just "waking up in the early morning to move the fan" account would just crumble. The screen saver timer would establish a potential blackout time from the last key entry to black out que.

A stated before everything placed in the affidavit has some relevance although it may the inverted. His establishing 22:00 as a time point has significance. He actually started the clock. The question is how long did Reeva take for her Yoga session. 1/2 hour or 1 hour.

22:00 to 23:00

The ipad could establish time points. If interaction with the ipad starts another event sequence that data could eventually lead into the shouting that started at 2:00 till 3:00.

Remember a basic action time line could be the foundation to his affidavit. Meaning every thing that occurred in real life is replaced with a fabricated event. The only difference is the fabricated event leaves no trail.

Let take his account and invert it in a manner that incriminates him and see if the evidence can align itself. If something does not fit one way flip it over and see if it fits the other way.

For example. 10:00 they prepare for bed. He watches TV. She does her Yoga he fall asleep. She jumps on line. He wakes up. See's her on line and an argument ensues. He grabs the ipad, see something and becomes infuriated. She see that it is going out of control and heads to bathroom. He grabs the gun, shoots 4 times. Comes to his senses and realizes what he has done.

This covers every element in his affidavit without the added rhetoric. Every element in his affidavit is inverted the other way and it too is plausible.

The ipad could be the conduit that triggered the events leading to her death.

Inobu

Take solace in that he may be free on bail but he is not free from his conscience.

This is amazing. I've always thought since reading the iPad was found on the ground, that this was the trigger for the argument heard.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Cherwell]

You make many good points some of which I haven't thought of yet. And I don't think some others have thought of or understand because they don't know how semi auto firearms work. A shell casing is what comes out of the back/top of the gun when a gun fires. It usually flies out to the side or behind the shooter. It is not the bullet which would be lodged in whatever you intended to shoot, the casings are a separate part that fly a separate way (they aren't a danger). OPs lawyer said there was a shell casing in the loo which Is the toilet. The only way this could be would be a shot occurred will OP was in the bathroom with the door open. Otherwise all the casings would be outside be bathroom door. Did they focus on this at trial??? This is major. Did they confirm his story that all bullets went through the door or not?

There hasn't been a trial yet.

Very little information has been disclosed by the prosecution, let alone "confirmed".

 

[whiterum]

You make many good points some of which I haven't thought of yet. And I don't think some others have thought of or understand because they don't know how semi auto firearms work. A shell casing is what comes out of the back/top of the gun when a gun fires. It usually flies out to the side or behind the shooter. It is not the bullet which would be lodged in whatever you intended to shoot, the casings are a separate part that fly a separate way (they aren't a danger). OPs lawyer said there was a shell casing in the loo which Is the toilet. The only way this could be would be a shot occurred will OP was in the bathroom with the door open. Otherwise all the casings would be outside be bathroom door. Did they focus on this at trial??? This is major. Did they confirm his story that all bullets went through the door or not?

I thought it was a projectile, found in the toilet bowl, that would be a spent bullet, think so anyway.

 

[weeeva]

You seem to conviniently forget that in order to get his gun, he had to go back to the bed. Since he was keeping his gun under his bed.
So how is that he didn't see she was not in bed when he was getting his gun from under the bed?

No I did not conveniently forget. I believe that after he heard the noise in the bathroom his mind would go into emergency mode. It was a life or death situation, sheer panic. His concentration would be on locating the gun his eyes would be on the floor. Nobody would behave normally if their very life was at stake. Also if he is to be believed, it was very dark and he was afraid to put the lights on.
On the evidence we have I can't find any flaws in his statement. That is not to say there may be more evidence to implicate him during his trial.

 

[Cherwell]

No I did not conveniently forget. I believe that after he heard the noise in the bathroom his mind would go into emergency mode. It was a life or death situation, sheer panic. His concentration would be on locating the gun his eyes would be on the floor. Nobody would behave normally if their very life was at stake. Also if he is to be believed, it was very dark and he was afraid to put the lights on.
On the evidence we have I can't find any flaws in his statement. That is not to say there may be more evidence to implicate him during his trial.

And you seriously don't think he would check to see that his girlfriend was safe in the bed - the woman he claims to be so in love with.

 

[weeeva]

gitana1 "Like the prosecution argued, what burglar comes to use your toilet?"



Exactly. Burglars come to rob and sometimes kill. That is why OP reacted the way he did.