General Discussion Thread #2

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whiterum said:
The defence have a cheek to complain, didn't they hold on to vital evidence, OPs phone that he used that night. Weird that he didn't volunteer to give that phone to police, especially when he knew they were collecting as evidence various phones from his property.
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I was amazed at that revelation too and also about the bullet in the toilet.

I wondered if OP had shot her in the bedroom and threw the bullet or casing in the toilet himself.

I have also wondered whether because Botha let OP off charges before, whether he was bribed and even whether Botha could have been bribed again secretly on the day of the murder with a wad of cash put into his pocket to make sure OP got bail.
 
natsound said:
This is an article that came out before testimony started. No one mentioned a casing in the bedroom at the hearing. But IMO, If the casing in the bedroom were true, it would have been mentioned, because it effectively proves premeditation, and torpedoes the intruder theory.
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IIRC, at the bail hearing it was stated that 3 casings were found in the bathroom and one was found in the passageway between the bathroom and bedroom. I believe the defense claimed OP shot 4 times from the entrance to the bathroom, meaning the place where the "passageway" meets the bathroom. The prosecution stated they believe shots were fired from the wash basin area, well within the bathroom. I don't remember them addressing the potential meaning of the one casing found in the passageway. In earlier news leaks, perhaps it's possible there was confusion about where the bedroom ends and the bathroom begins. Perhaps the passageway was interpreted as part of the bedroom since it's clearly not part of the bathroom.

Just my opinion.
 
Estelle said:
I was amazed at that revelation too and also about the bullet in the toilet.

I wondered if OP had shot her in the bedroom and threw the bullet or casing in the toilet himself.

I have also wondered whether because Botha let OP off charges before, whether he was bribed and even whether Botha could have been bribed again secretly on the day of the murder with a wad of cash put into his pocket to make sure OP got bail.
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Do you know Estelle that is exactly what I was thinking. The missed spent bullet in the toilet bowl is as unbelievable as OP's version of events.
 
whiterum said:
Do you know Estelle that is exactly what I was thinking. The missed spent bullet in the toilet bowl is as unbelievable as OP's version of events.
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Wouldn't a spent bullet in the toilet indicate that she was NOT using the bathroom when she was killed? It helps nobody in my opinion. The whole thing is a load of BS anyway, it seems to me that there have been so many lies and missteps on both sides that any chance of the truth is long gone.
 
soozieqtips said:
If he has now settled the claim against the girl he himself was apparently going to press charges against (?) - does this mean he can pay Reeva's family off and not face a trial? I don't know how SA law works if the accused offers to pay off any relatives as part of a settlement scheme.
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No I doubt it, the way I see it is that bribes would be paid to individuals in the court and police departments - to manipulate or 'lose' evidence, to minimise charges, and to minimise verdicts and punishment.

Surely if he can just hand out money to stop a case proceeding against him, then anyone with money can do the same and avoid justice? Does it work differently in the case of alleged murder? I'd have thought if he did offer Reeva's family money, then that could be construed as 'interfering with witnesses' if they were called to give evidence in court?
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You remember that he is a high profile white man in a country where they had to get rid of the jury system altogether so that white men could be convicted of ANY crime regardless of the evidence.

South Africa
The jury system was abolished in South Africa in 1969, and the last jury trial to be heard was in the District of Kimberley. One argument put forward to explain the abolition of the jury system in South Africa is that in the apartheid era, the former National Party moved to weaken the judiciary. Another explanation is that a system of whites-only juries (as was the system at that time) was considered inherently unfair at a time when the introduction of nonracial juries would have been a political impossibility. It has been argued that, apart from being a racially divided country, South African society was, and still is, characterized by significant class differences and disparities of income and wealth which could make the re-introduction of the jury system problematical. Arguments for and against the re-introduction of a jury system have been discussed by South African constitutional expert, Professor Pierre de Vos, in "Do we need a jury system?" in Constitutionally Speaking. [37]
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In other words, it's one law for the poor and black and another law for the rich and white.

Pardon my ignorance!
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Hey, I think this case has made me bitter and cynical so pardon ME for that.
 
Mrs G Norris said:
Wouldn't a spent bullet in the toilet indicate that she was NOT using the bathroom when she was killed? It helps nobody in my opinion. The whole thing is a load of BS anyway, it seems to me that there have been so many lies and missteps on both sides that any chance of the truth is long gone.
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Sorry, but do you mean "using the toilet"? I know that bathroom is used as a euphemism for toilet in the USA, but it's very important to distinguish between the two in this case.
 
Cherwell said:
Sorry, but do you mean "using the toilet"? I know that bathroom is used as a euphemism for toilet in the USA, but it's very important to distinguish between the two in this case.
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Yes .. same thing in my book ... using the bathroom means sitting on the toilet which means bullet doesn't end up down in the bowl.

Here's the pic http://s3.amazonaws.com/rapgenius/1361556367__65976826_pistorius_floor_plan624.gif as you can see no room to do anything else in there besides 'use the bathroom'.
 
Hmmm ...

Mind you, this comes from the man who shot himself in the testicles. The ANC says his comments are "worrying".


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-blames-South-Africas-gun-culture-on-ANC.html

Oscar Pistorius's father blames South Africa's gun culture on ANC

The father of Oscar Pistorius, the paralympian who shot his girlfriend dead on St Valentine's Day, has blamed the high number of South Africans who carry guns on the failure of the ANC government to bring down violent crime.

Henke Pistorius said he and other members of his family owned guns because they could not rely on the police to protect them against criminals.

He laid the blame for South Africa's violent crime rates, which are among the highest in the world with 15,000 people murdered last year, on the ANC government.

He also singled out crime against white South Africans. Many Afrikaners living in the rural areas fear they are being targeted because of an estimated 1,600 murders of white farmers since 1990.

His comments came after it was revealed that Mr Pistorius' father, grandfather and uncles own 55 guns between them.
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snip

.
 
Cherwell said:
Sorry, but do you mean "using the toilet"? I know that bathroom is used as a euphemism for toilet in the USA, but it's very important to distinguish between the two in this case.
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Well since, in this case, the toilet was in a room by itself, it becomes rather moot. The fact that the defence has brought into evidence that the bullet was found IN the toilet indeed could lead one to assume that Reeva was not using the toilet and perhaps that she was, in fact, hiding there....although it could also be that she had used it...wouldn't OP then have heard the toilet flush?
 
Zinn said:
IIRC, at the bail hearing it was stated that 3 casings were found in the bathroom and one was found in the passageway between the bathroom and bedroom. I believe the defense claimed OP shot 4 times from the entrance to the bathroom, meaning the place where the "passageway" meets the bathroom. The prosecution stated they believe shots were fired from the wash basin area, well within the bathroom. I don't remember them addressing the potential meaning of the one casing found in the passageway. In earlier news leaks, perhaps it's possible there was confusion about where the bedroom ends and the bathroom begins. Perhaps the passageway was interpreted as part of the bedroom since it's clearly not part of the bathroom.

Just my opinion.
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Oh boy! :doh: I was way off on what I considered "passageway" to mean. They're referring to the hallway thing. Gotcha. I was thinking more of a vent that connected both rooms.

So.... OP claims he stood in the hallway and fired the shots toward the door on his stumps. Nel and Botha claim he stood in a extreme corner by a sink and fired at an angle toward the toilet, wearing his legs. We need to see that door!
 
Zinn said:
IIRC, at the bail hearing it was stated that 3 casings were found in the bathroom and one was found in the passageway between the bathroom and bedroom. I believe the defense claimed OP shot 4 times from the entrance to the bathroom, meaning the place where the "passageway" meets the bathroom. The prosecution stated they believe shots were fired from the wash basin area, well within the bathroom. I don't remember them addressing the potential meaning of the one casing found in the passageway. In earlier news leaks, perhaps it's possible there was confusion about where the bedroom ends and the bathroom begins. Perhaps the passageway was interpreted as part of the bedroom since it's clearly not part of the bathroom.

Just my opinion.
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i agree that it was in the passageway which means IMO on her way possibly with fractured skull and damaged hip already to lock herself in the toilet. What would this distance have been approximately? 5-6 metres?

However, the media report of the neighbours said they heard this sequence:

screaming shouting ONE HOUR shot shot shot SILENCE FOR 17 MINUTES shot shot shot

What we have been told at the bail hearing only accounts for:

screaming shouting ONE HOUR shot SILENCE FOR 17 MINUTES shot shot shot

Some of you have argued that the first two "shot" sounds could have been OP hitting RS with the cricket bat

OR

did OP shoot 6 bullets but evidence of only 4 (or 5) has been found so far?

What if the police found 4 plus the one that Roux mentioned that was in the toilet? That accounts for 5. Maybe there was another one which OP picked up himself which would make the total of 6.
 
Just heard this on the news so quickly checked to see if there is any more info, this is all I could find.
http://ewn.co.za/2013/03/04/Cell-phone-records-of-little-help

So there was no jealous fight about messages etc. that has come to light yet. This also questions her supposed SMS to her friends family about sleeping over at OP as they said she sent the SMS at past 10 that evening. Disputable now if her last activity on her phone was at 8pm.
 
Mrs G Norris said:
Wouldn't a spent bullet in the toilet indicate that she was NOT using the bathroom when she was killed? It helps nobody in my opinion. The whole thing is a load of BS anyway, it seems to me that there have been so many lies and missteps on both sides that any chance of the truth is long gone.
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It is evidence that she was not sitting on the toilet when that particular bullet was fired.

IMO the investigation could have begun with corruption with that lawyer and the brother there before paramedics and police even arrived. I have never heard of that in my life.

Perhaps in that silence of that 17 minutes, OP phoned the lawyer to find out whether he should shoot her or not in the toilet, what his story should be to police when they arrived and how to cover up. Who has a lawyer they can phone at 3-4am who would get dressed and come over straight away at that time of the day?

I bet that PR guy, Stuart Higgins, his PR guy was called to come over on the next flight from the UK too before police were even called.

It is important in psychology to spread what you want people to believe from Day One especially in the media. It is called the "Primacy Effect". IMO that is also why he committed to his "cover up" story in the form of an affidavit for the bail hearing. He even put his affidavit up on his website! It is like brainwashing the masses first. He probably knows there are plenty of holes in his intruder story which will be found out when the case goes to trial but he was more concerned about protecting his reputation and income first with his lies which many people who have not delved into it have probably accepted at face value. IMO the intruder story (and possibly bribing Botha again to get him bail) might work for a rich celebrity in South Africa with its gun culture but it is too far-fetched for people lving in other countries where such a culture does not exist.

His moving her body down the stairs is something one should never do whether the person is alive or dead whatever reasons he gave. It looked like more cover up to me. IMO RS would have been dead by this stage. How could she still have been alive having gone through all that?
 
Lola said:
Well since, in this case, the toilet was in a room by itself, it becomes rather moot. The fact that the defence has brought into evidence that the bullet was found IN the toilet indeed could lead one to assume that Reeva was not using the toilet and perhaps that she was, in fact, hiding there....although it could also be that she had used it...wouldn't OP then have heard the toilet flush?
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Yes he would have heard the toilet flush but isn't that one of the sounds he could have heard when he was supposedly on his balcony? What other sound could he say he heard?

Perhaps she was crouching down beside the toilet on the side furthest away. He could probably tell by her voice if she was crying in pain exactly where she was if she was not already unconscious or dead.
 
Mrs G Norris said:
No I doubt it, the way I see it is that bribes would be paid to individuals in the court and police departments - to manipulate or 'lose' evidence, to minimise charges, and to minimise verdicts and punishment.

You remember that he is a high profile white man in a country where they had to get rid of the jury system altogether so that white men could be convicted of ANY crime regardless of the evidence.

In other words, it's one law for the poor and black and another law for the rich and white.

Hey, I think this case has made me bitter and cynical so pardon ME for that.
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I agree with you that he would not be able to bribe RS parents but IMO his family and others like him have been bribing police all their lives and getting away with it.

Perhaps RS parents want to take OP to a civil court for compensation and are not wealthy enough to find the money for a lawyer. Does SA have legal aid that they could use?

IMO RS parents would be entitled to a hefty sum but will have to wait until his premeditated murder case is over apparently. So how will they live in the meantime? Did RS have a life insurance policy? Wouldn't her brother help?

Of course, OP could offer a hefty sum to them now which they would feel entitled to uhder the circumstances with a caveat that they are not to seek more later in a civil court or go to the media.

But as he is trying to spin that he is innocent, and believes that he is going to get off scott-free, I think that giving them anything now would make him look guilty. Also, the parents are likely to get more if they wait and take it to a civil court.
 
Estelle, I hear you on the primacy and the importance of PR in a jury case, but since this will be tried by a judge (and from my understanding one higher than magistrate Nair) would it be reasonable to assume that PR will have little if any weight in this case?? SA posters, what say you?

How blind is justice in SA? i.e. will the facts and the law decide this case or are all the OP PR machinations worth the effort other than saving Oskie's career etc just in case he walks? Is that what this is about -- keeping the OP juggernaut a viable money-maker?
 
Carol70 said:
Just heard this on the news so quickly checked to see if there is any more info, this is all I could find.
http://ewn.co.za/2013/03/04/Cell-phone-records-of-little-help

So there was no jealous fight about messages etc. that has come to light yet. This also questions her supposed SMS to her friends family about sleeping over at OP as they said she sent the SMS at past 10 that evening. Disputable now if her last activity on her phone was at 8pm.
Click to expand...

The cellphone records showed the last activity on the handsets was at about 8pm on 13 February, the night before the Paralympian shot dead his girlfriend Reeva Steenkamp.

Cellphone data also shows no record of rugby player Francois Hougaard – Steenkamp’s former boyfriend - calling or sending a text message to any of the phones.

It was widely speculated that a text message from him might have sparked an argument between Pistorius and Steenkamp before the shooting, after neighbours claimed to have heard screaming before shots were fired in the athlete's Pretoria home.

Police seized three iPhones, one of them belonging to Steenkamp.

Pistorius only used one of his two phones to call for help after shooting her, it emerged during proceedings for his bail application.

Van Aardt will look into cellphone records and secure statements from witnesses, while waiting for the forensic evidence to be finalised.

http://ewn.co.za/2013/03/04/Cell-phone-records-of-little-help#sthash.ryHCqLy0.dpuf

My questions and comments to that is:

Roux told Botha that OP had another phone he used on the night. Did OP have three altogether? I don't think this third one would have been included in this research.

Have they checked for deleted phone calls and messages yet which they can retrieve? OP could have deleted them.

This cell phone record investigation does not include Reeva's iPad which was found on the floor at the bottom of the bed. I think they said it was still on?

I read that Hougaard sent Reeva a message on Facebook. You can also chat on the internet. Maybe Reeva sent Cecil Myers a message on Facebook or an email.
 
Hi!

I think you have brought up some good points. My reading was that there were two iphones found in the bathroom plus the iphone OP had on him that made the call for help. So I think that is the three iphones they are referring to.

But you are right - the telecom will only know about SMS/calls that went through the phone phone. Deleted calls still show up (at least on my phone bills! )

But it can't track messages (or deleted messages) on iphone/ipad social apps, like facebook, Skype, twitter, etc.

So more investigation needed on those phones and the apps on them.
 
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