General Discussion Thread #2

[21merc7]

I don't think with the world looking on that the prosecution at least did not do some prep time with Botha.

However, if it comes out that he was wrong about anything, as he certainly was about distances, it could be said that his statements were all simply his observations, not completed forensic evidence.

If the need arises, which it usually does in a murder trial, would either side call Botha as a witness?

 

[natsound]

Shane, thanks for that..and I really do appreciate everyone's opinions. I am under no delusions that OP was a saint..But as it stands now, I find his statement absolutely plausible and a possibility but you have seen me post negative articles that I have found too so I'm not in total denial. Hehe, the trial is going to be interesting to say the least and I will be more than willing to eat my words if evidence proves beyond reasonable doubt that OP had every intention to murder Reeva.

I appreciate everyone's opinions as well, as long as they're not hostile toward another poster (these boards can get ugly sometimes). I'll be honest... I think OP's story is hogwash, however I see there is lots of support for his story at this point. I think his prior tweet regarding "full combat mode" at noises in the laundry room, as well as the fact that he sleeps with guns for protection, will help his defense.

I don't buy his story because there are so many "it just so happens that..." instances. :twocents:

1. It just so happens that he slept on the side of the bed Reeva normally sleeps on that night (the side where her night bag was found).
2. It just so happens that it was pitch dark in the room so he couldn't see her.
3. It just so happens that she slipped into the bathroom while he was pulling in the fan, and he didn't notice.
4. It just so happens that she didn't say anything or make a sound as she slipped into the bathroom.
5. It just so happens that she didn't hear him screaming at the alleged intruder when he walked down the hall.
6. It just so happens that he didn't try to find out who was in the toilet before he fired.
7. It just so happens that she didn't say anything, before or after taking the first bullet.
8. It just so happens that she was wearing a vest and shorts, not bed clothes.

There are probably more, they just don't come to mind as I sit at my desk at work!

 

[cityslick]

I don't think with the world looking on that the prosecution at least did not do some prep time with Botha.

However, if it comes out that he was wrong about anything, as he certainly was about distances, it could be said that his statements were all simply his observations, not completed forensic evidence.

If the need arises, which it usually does in a murder trial, would either side call Botha as a witness?

I think he's a pivotal witness no matter who calls him. He was one of the first on the scene, his observations are critical, especially because at the time they were being made in an official capacity.

The usual rule with WS is that things to be discussed need to come from MSM. Are any of these sources that continue to talk about the bat verified MSM? I know it gets more dicey due to this being an international crime but most of the major news outlets are not running with the cricket bat angle that I know of.

Another question is how long do autopsy's take in SA. Here in the states, once a body is found it's usually no more than a day or two at the most.

 

[Carol70]

Thanks again.
It will be interesting. Do you--like me--feel some type of remorse that now the police/prosecution will probably not present much or anything tothe public until trial, which I have a feeling will get delayed from June 4. Are we suffering from withdrawal?

And did you see that Nigerian blogger's satire piece on OP's afidavit, that was posted here a day or 2 ago? Obviously only satire, not evidence, but it was on point. I just think that so many claims, actions etc in OP's affidavit are improbable, along with such things as the 17 minute gap, and his behavior in court.

But I guess the bottom line is that his affidavit claims are not impossible. Maybe with the right lawyers etc in the USA, some juries would arrive at the "reasonable doubt" level."

That reminds me--what is the standard of innocence in SA? Is it any resonable doubt, as in the USA?

Oh yes, the wait will be terrible however....it wouldn't surprise me in the least if official documents etc are leaked(read sold) to the press while we wait for trial, so we will have something to work with until then. Yes, the case will be remanded/ postponed numerous times before the trial actually starts. Expect sometime next year. As for reasonable doubt, it's supposed to be.

Now, as for the 17 minute theory(unconfirmed i might add )I would just love to know why no one bothered to call security after hearing those first shot/s?? In such a security conscious estate not one witness called to report hearing the gunshots? Hmm..

 

[popsicle]

The light colored top is seen in the third photo that is of Oscar not Reeva. There were two photos of Reeva showing the black straps of what appear to be a tank top then a third person in a light colored top with their face slightly obscured - that is Oscar.

Miss Steenkamp is seen grinning as security guards let her drive her Mini Cooper into the Silver Woods estate on the outskirts of Pretoria just before 6pm.
Ten minutes later, Paralympic champion Pistorius is also shown arriving in his white BMW.
He uses a lane that is further away from the CCTV camera and it does not capture his facial expression.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2283822/Last-picture-Reeva-shows-smiling-Valentines-Day-arrives-Pistoriuss-home.html

Maybe we are looking at different pictures. The third photo does not appear to be a white car and is the same distance from the CCTV as the first two jmo

 

[21merc7]

The only thing clear to me in the photo is that she looks very happy and smiling. A happy smile, not the fake for the cameras kind of smile.

 

[Carol70]

I think he's a pivotal witness no matter who calls him. He was one of the first on the scene, his observations are critical, especially because at the time they were being made in an official capacity.

The usual rule with WS is that things to be discussed need to come from MSM. Are any of these sources that continue to talk about the bat verified MSM? I know it gets more dicey due to this being an international crime but most of the major news outlets are not running with the cricket bat angle that I know of.

Another question is how long do autopsy's take in SA. Here in the states, once a body is found it's usually no more than a day or two at the most.

Re autopsy, same this side. I would imagine Reevas was done that afternoon or early the next morning, her body still needed to be identified and shipped back to her hometown so they would have moved on it.

 

[cityslick]

I appreciate everyone's opinions as well, as long as they're not hostile toward another poster (these boards can get ugly sometimes). I'll be honest... I think OP's story is hogwash, however I see there is lots of support for his story at this point. I think his prior tweet regarding "full combat mode" at noises in the laundry room, as well as the fact that he sleeps with guns for protection, will help his defense.

I don't buy his story because there are so many "it just so happens that..." instances. :twocents:

1. It just so happens that he slept on the side of the bed Reeva normally sleeps on that night (the side where her night bag was found).
2. It just so happens that it was pitch dark in the room so he couldn't see her.
3. It just so happens that she slipped into the bathroom while he was pulling in the fan, and he didn't notice.
4. It just so happens that she didn't say anything or make a sound as she slipped into the bathroom.
5. It just so happens that she didn't hear him screaming at the alleged intruder when he walked down the hall.
6. It just so happens that he didn't try to find out who was in the toilet before he fired.
7. It just so happens that she didn't say anything, before or after taking the first bullet.
8. It just so happens that she was wearing a vest and shorts, not bed clothes.

There are probably more, they just don't come to mind as I sit at my desk at work!

I agree that points 5 and 6 (maybe 7 unless the first shot hit her head) are huge holes in his story. As for the others, some questions I had:

1 - How often does Reeva sleep there to where she's on 'her' side? Note they were only dating for 3 months.
2 - Do we know if it's normally pitch black in the room?
3 - This bothers me too, with one caveat. Is it possible she wasn't in the bed when he got up to get the fan, just didn't notice it?
4 - Not surprising, many times my spouse gets up to go to the bathroom and I don't hear nothing. Note that unless he was on the balcony for awhile, he should of saw her before hearing her if she got up at the same time.
8 - There's been a lot of discussion on this, is it verified what exactly she was wearing?

 

[Waddles]

I think that last photo is Oscar. So looking at those two photos it appears that at the time the crime was committed they both were still wearing the same clothes they arrived at the house in. Reeva in a black tank top and Oscar in a white t-shirt. I think this is VERY significant and blows a hole in OP's story. I mean - how many of you would go to sleep in the exact same clothes you wore out and about all day???

The man she was living with Cecil Myers said she had intended to come home that night but it got too late so she texted to say she was staying over. It puzzled me as police said they had found an overnight bag implying she had planned to stay but then maybe she always carried a bag of toileteries etc.
I'll look for the link

ETA
Mr Myers told South Africa’s City Press: “Then Reeva sent the [text] message, 'Hi guys, I’m too tired. It’s too far to drive. I’m sleeping at Oscar’s tonight. See you tomorrow’.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...t-image-of-Reeva-Steenkamp-alive-emerges.html

 

[cityslick]

Re autopsy, same this side. I would imagine Reevas was done that afternoon or early the next morning, her body still needed to be identified and shipped back to her hometown so they would have moved on it.

Thank you. If true, that means the state (and Botha) should of had that information by the time of the bail hearing. So Botha testifying that there were no other wounds would of been lying if the autopsy claimed otherwise.

 

[Norwegian]

The only thing clear to me in the photo is that she looks very happy and smiling. A happy smile, not the fake for the cameras kind of smile.

She was a model and I'm sure she could smile through anything...

 

[cityslick]

She was a model and I'm sure she could smile through anything...

There is no evidence that she was unhappy with OP. Her tweets right before her death only further confirm this.

 

[Carol70]

I want to ask if anyone has seen someone shot dead before?

I was discussing this with someone who once witness to a shooting after a bar fight gone wrong. Person was shot in the shoulder first and then chest, killing him. My friend told me that after the first shot into the shoulder, the victim didn't scream, cry, try to move away etc...he apparently just stood there with a look of utter shock and disbelief on his face for 2 seconds before the second shot killed him. Do you think it's at all possible that that's what happened to Reeva if the first shot didn't render her unconscious? Hence her reason for not shouting out? Has anyone got info for this?

 

[Waddles]

I want to ask if anyone has seen someone shot dead before?

I was discussing this with someone who once witness to a shooting after a bar fight gone wrong. Person was shot in the shoulder first and then chest, killing him. My friend told me that after the first shot into the shoulder, the victim didn't scream, cry, try to move away etc...he apparently just stood there with a look of utter shock and disbelief on his face for 2 seconds before the second shot killed him. Do you think it's at all possible that that's what happened to Reeva if the first shot didn't render her unconscious? Hence her reason for not shouting out? Has anyone got info for this?

I thought of this too. And that the very first shot may have been so crippling that she could no longer speak or scream, maybe lost consciousness immediately or something

 

[Dryad]

The man she was living with -her best friend's father I forgot his name, said she had intended to come home that night but it got too late so she texted to say she was staying over. It puzzled me as police said they had found an overnight bag implying she had planned to stay but then maybe she always carried a bag of toileteries etc.
I'll look for the link

I wrote the same thing last night. It was reported early on that an overnight bag was found in the bedroom, meaning she was planning to stay over or hoping to stay over and had it with her just in case. I don't understand these "reports" that she was trying to get away from him. She bought a Valentine's gift that seemed very personal and hopeful. If correct, it was a photo frame with their picture inside of it. That is not a gift you buy when about to break up with someone or about to distance yourself, quite the opposite.

 

[shane13]

Oh yes, the wait will be terrible however....it wouldn't surprise me in the least if official documents etc are leaked(read sold) to the press while we wait for trial, so we will have something to work with until then. Yes, the case will be remanded/ postponed numerous times before the trial actually starts. Expect sometime next year. As for reasonable doubt, it's supposed to be.

Now, as for the 17 minute theory(unconfirmed i might add )I would just love to know why no one bothered to call security after hearing those first shot/s?? In such a security conscious estate not one witness called to report hearing the gunshots? Hmm..

Well I am sure the defense will question the earwitnesses as to why they did not call the cops.

Ultimately though that aspect is irrrelavent and may be part of what has become known in the USA (at least) as Kitty Genovese Syndrome.

See wiki e.g., in 1964 a woman was repeatedly stabbed for some 30-45 minutes, by an apartment complex IIRC in Queens, NYC. NY Times reported 38 people heard her cries for help and did not call the cops. (Later claims have decreased the # of witnesses.) The perp even drove away and came back for seconds. The poor young woman was also raped as she was dying.

In addition to KG Syndrome also known as "Bystander effect" or "defusion of responsibility." So maybe precisely because the sound seemed to emanate from far away that the witnesses so far found presumed others must have called the cops.

Ultimately though IMHO that these earwitnesses did not call the cops is basically irrelevant to what they heard.

 

[natsound]

I agree that points 5 and 6 (maybe 7 unless the first shot hit her head) are huge holes in his story. As for the others, some questions I had:

1 - How often does Reeva sleep there to where she's on 'her' side? Note they were only dating for 3 months.
2 - Do we know if it's normally pitch black in the room?
3 - This bothers me too, with one caveat. Is it possible she wasn't in the bed when he got up to get the fan, just didn't notice it?
4 - Not surprising, many times my spouse gets up to go to the bathroom and I don't hear nothing. Note that unless he was on the balcony for awhile, he should of saw her before hearing her if she got up at the same time.
8 - There's been a lot of discussion on this, is it verified what exactly she was wearing?

This came from Botha :doh::


"I found the deceased at the bottom of the stairs (leading up from the entrance hall to the bedroom and bathroom where the shooting happened.) She was already dead. She had on a pair of white shorts and a black vest and she was covered with towels."

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/wor...-bail-hearing-article-1.1268575#ixzz2LwTGd600

Perhaps RS was not in the bed at all when OP got up, as he says. But I personally believe they weren't in bed immediately before this all went down anyway.

 

[Carol70]

The man she was living with Cecil Myers said she had intended to come home that night but it got too late so she texted to say she was staying over. It puzzled me as police said they had found an overnight bag implying she had planned to stay but then maybe she always carried a bag of toileteries etc.
I'll look for the link

ETA
Mr Myers told South Africa’s City Press: “Then Reeva sent the [text] message, 'Hi guys, I’m too tired. It’s too far to drive. I’m sleeping at Oscar’s tonight. See you tomorrow’.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...t-image-of-Reeva-Steenkamp-alive-emerges.html

Yep, that puzzles me too. OP states they planned to spend the evening together, she arrived with a bag including slippers but it is very possible she carried a bag in her boot. Also, I've read numerous reports about Reeva having a flatmate? So she shared a flat with someone and wasn't a permenant fixture in Mr Myers home or the flat was on his property which is also a likely scenario.

 

[shane13]

I want to ask if anyone has seen someone shot dead before?

I was discussing this with someone who once witness to a shooting after a bar fight gone wrong. Person was shot in the shoulder first and then chest, killing him. My friend told me that after the first shot into the shoulder, the victim didn't scream, cry, try to move away etc...he apparently just stood there with a look of utter shock and disbelief on his face for 2 seconds before the second shot killed him. Do you think it's at all possible that that's what happened to Reeva if the first shot didn't render her unconscious? Hence her reason for not shouting out? Has anyone got info for this?

When one is in a state shock from physical and/or mental factors, silence will probably be the reaction of many. Maybe even more so from an assault or shooting from a supposed loved one.

 

[shane13]

I thought of this too. And that the very first shot may have been so crippling that she could no longer speak or scream, maybe lost consciousness immediately or something

And IIRC the alleged earwitnesses said that there was no screaming after the first shots, and until the final shots 17 minutes later. But plenty of shouting before the first shots.