General Gun Violence/Gun Control

[Kaley Smith]

BBM. I don't believe it will take that long.

When I see photos of politicians and their families gathered around the Christmas tree grinning while clutching assault weapons, that is a clear sign we gotta BIG problem in the U.S. and the way to solve it is at the voting booth.

JMO

I sure hope it won't take a generation or two. Gun control laws DO work. Other countries have proven it. The problem is there are far too many Americans still not ready to accept them and not enough states willing to enforce them. Their population is also so much larger, and that really does complicate trying to get the majority on board. It's also too much of a political issue there. I'm just very sad and frustrated about the whole thing... and I don't even live there. I wonder if those of us outside the USA see and read more articles like the one below than American citizens do? One of my American friends, female and owner of many guns, says while they know far more about guns than we do, we are probably more educated about gun violence (eg stats and studies about it) than the average American is. Mark Bryant counts US shootings. He no longer remembers the names

 

[AngTxGal]

If we take the Secret Service assessment as a guide (which is limited to school killings), the people who shouldn't have guns are people who have any combination of:

- an interest in violent topics
- social stressors involving peers and/or romantic partners
- negative home life factors
- a victim of bullying
- a history of disciplinary actions
- having prior contact with law enforcement
- concerning behaviours (whatever that is ... killing small animals? hurting their siblings? spitting at their parents? drug use?)
- psychological, behavioural, or developmental symptoms (which covers a very broad range)

Adding:
- a job grievance
- commit domestic violence
- anger at the way casinos are treating them, despite being a high roller
- seeking notoriety

Secret Service Assessment - there is no profile of a school attacker
Texas gunman who killed 7 was fired from job on day of rampage
New Study: Majority of Mass Shootings Linked to Domestic Violence
Insight into mindset of 2017 Las Vegas mass shooter
Fame-seeking mass shooters in America

If this list could be turned into a RedFlag law where multiple systems overlapped then a shooting could be prevented- they can’t fall through the cracks.
These systems/ locations/ entities should be given power they currently don’t have or use.

- schools K-12, universities, private and public, church schools
- employers
- churches, synagogues, temples
- any public retail store
- person’s interacting on social media
- mass transit- lots of nutcases on video who should be RedFlagged
- physicians based on diagnosis of mental health issue related to violence
- spouse, family member in household, estranged spouse, ex spouse or significant other
- anyone who witnesses violence

The only system like this is the free anonymous call anyone can make to CPS to report suspected child abuse. What I don’t know is how long the system takes to react- and send LE to go check it out. Caller to legal system to Judge, to LE to knock on door.
Maybe a Violent Offender database like our system for RSOs. Anyone with a repeated history of violence becomes public record- I could check online to see if my neighbor once served time for domestic violence or was RedFlagged in the past but that was just lifted.

Just curious how many of us have encountered someone in public that we would call in to report and RedFlag?
I can think of a few young men I’ve encountered- drivers on the road who had a death wish and didn‘t care if they took others out with them. I’ve reported license plates- they should be RedFlagged if they are driving recklessly.

Could this get wings? Maybe, as it doesn‘t impact most law abiding gun owners.
It does ask the system to react on violence without a law having to be broken And charges filed. Systems do that now for suspected child abuse in any form- with anonymous hotlines.

JMO

 

[SouthAussie]

RSBM

Just curious how many of us have encountered someone in public that we would call in to report and RedFlag?
I can think of a few young men I’ve encountered- drivers on the road who had a death wish and didn‘t care if they took others out with them. I’ve reported license plates- they should be RedFlagged if they are driving recklessly.

JMO

I honestly couldn't anticipate a person who might commit a shooting. There seem to be just too many variables to know who will shoot and who will not.

But I do remember, when we lived in the US, a guy used to come over on occasion, and sometimes I would get a flash of his gun tucked into the rear of the waistband of his jeans, under his jacket.

I always stayed away from him. I don't want to be near anyone who is carrying a gun.

 

[AngTxGal]

I sure hope it won't take a generation or two. Gun control laws DO work. Other countries have proven it. The problem is there are far too many Americans still not ready to accept them and not enough states willing to enforce them. Their population is also so much larger, and that really does complicate trying to get the majority on board. It's also too much of a political issue there. I'm just very sad and frustrated about the whole thing... and I don't even live there. I wonder if those of us outside the USA see and read more articles like the one below than American citizens do? One of my American friends, female and owner of many guns, says while they know far more about guns than we do, we are probably more educated about gun violence (eg stats and studies about it) than the average American is. Mark Bryant counts US shootings. He no longer remembers the names

I think Americans have been able to keep their heads in the sand because for a time mass shootings didn’t happen near them, or to people like them, or in places where they go.

We can’t say that anymore, mass shootings happen everywhere, to people of all walks of life, in public places where the murderer and the murdered do not know each other.

Now people are becoming desensitized or deaf as they likely
- don‘t believe the media, news outlets anymore
- feel left out of the political process that could make a change
- are too stressed in their own lives to watch the news
- have seen this hot potato issue tossed around for two decades, don’t see an end in sight
- found other things to watch that aren’t bad news or politics and lost track of current events

JMO

 

[AngTxGal]

I honestly couldn't anticipate a person who might commit a shooting. There seem to be just too many variables to know who will shoot and who will not.

But I do remember, when we lived in the US, a guy used to come over and sometimes I would get a flash of his gun tucked into the rear of the waistband of his jeans, under his jacket.

I always stayed away from him.

I don't want to be near anyone who is carrying a gun.

Interesting, my husband, brother, sister’s husband, and friend’s husband carry if we are out in the evening with the general public.
If I went where no one was carrying a gun, few places I could go, and I couldn’t stay home.
Have a witnessed anyone ever pull a gun on another person? No.

JMO

 

[SouthAussie]

Interesting, my husband, brother, sister’s husband, and friend’s husband carry if we are out in the evening with the general public.
If I went where no one was carrying a gun, few places I could go, and I couldn’t stay home.
Have a witnessed anyone ever pull a gun on another person? No.

JMO

The very fact that someone is carrying a gun changes my whole impression of them.
I didn't like this guy, I am sure it was because he carried a gun.

I see a gun as nothing but a killing tool. Which makes the person carrying a potential killer. IYKWIM and absolutely no offence intended. Just trying to express the viewpoint of many in a non-gun culture.

I know that does not fit into your culture, that's why I don't live there any more. Thankfully I had a choice.

 

[seasideForest]

This Politico article you’ve posted is by far the best explanation of the eleven historical ideologies across the US. This shows why state lines are not ideological lines and why powers remain with the states instead of with the federal gov’t.

The article also explains the diversity in Texas- which has four of the eleven regions.
Map of American Regions is in color scroll down quite a bit

Also, our current polarization of our two parties imply a binary, it is a spectrum.
“Yet the gulf that separates Republicans and Democrats sometimes obscures the divisions and diversity of views that exist within both partisan coalitions – and the fact that many Americans do not fit easily into either one.”
Beyond Red and Blue Political Typology- Pew Research

RSBM
Thanks for the links, they make for an interesting read for me. I understand more where you're coming from.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

13,386 Americans shot dead so far this year:

Mark Bryant counts US shootings. He no longer remembers the names

After years of counting the dead, Mark Bryant says he's grown numb to the toll of US gun violence.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[SouthAussie]

13,386 Americans shot dead so far this year:

Mark Bryant counts US shootings. He no longer remembers the names

After years of counting the dead, Mark Bryant says he's grown numb to the toll of US gun violence.

www.bbc.co.uk

Thanks for the article, I have never read about the man behind the data before.


Interesting that an independent non-profit person (and his crew) sitting behind a computer screen gathering data is the one that "most major US media outlets, lawmakers and even the Supreme Court" go to for the gun death statistics.

He says he is just a "data nerd" who could see that no-one was really gathering accurate statistics.

"I don't understand what makes people that way"
"There's a lot of anger and hate."
"There's a level of irresponsibility in guns that needs to be solved so people don't die"
"I want to stop the violence."

 

[branmuffin]

Interesting, my husband, brother, sister’s husband, and friend’s husband carry if we are out in the evening with the general public.
If I went where no one was carrying a gun, few places I could go, and I couldn’t stay home.
Have a witnessed anyone ever pull a gun on another person? No.

JMO

The men in your life go to movies and restaurants, church and stores wearing a gun? Why? And why only the men?

 

[MyBelle]

If this list could be turned into a RedFlag law where multiple systems overlapped then a shooting could be prevented- they can’t fall through the cracks.
These systems/ locations/ entities should be given power they currently don’t have or use.

- schools K-12, universities, private and public, church schools
- employers
- churches, synagogues, temples
- any public retail store
- person’s interacting on social media
- mass transit- lots of nutcases on video who should be RedFlagged
- physicians based on diagnosis of mental health issue related to violence
- spouse, family member in household, estranged spouse, ex spouse or significant other
- anyone who witnesses violence

The only system like this is the free anonymous call anyone can make to CPS to report suspected child abuse. What I don’t know is how long the system takes to react- and send LE to go check it out. Caller to legal system to Judge, to LE to knock on door.
Maybe a Violent Offender database like our system for RSOs. Anyone with a repeated history of violence becomes public record- I could check online to see if my neighbor once served time for domestic violence or was RedFlagged in the past but that was just lifted.

Just curious how many of us have encountered someone in public that we would call in to report and RedFlag?
I can think of a few young men I’ve encountered- drivers on the road who had a death wish and didn‘t care if they took others out with them. I’ve reported license plates- they should be RedFlagged if they are driving recklessly.

Could this get wings? Maybe, as it doesn‘t impact most law abiding gun owners.
It does ask the system to react on violence without a law having to be broken And charges filed. Systems do that now for suspected child abuse in any form- with anonymous hotlines.

JMO

BBM. That isn't the way Red Flag laws work. A complete stranger has no standing to go before a Judge and request confiscation of guns on an emergency basis. A mere "hunch" isn't evidence.

JMO

 

[PrairieWind]

BBM. That isn't the way Red Flag laws work. A complete stranger has no standing to go before a Judge and request confiscation of guns on an emergency basis. A mere "hunch" isn't evidence.

JMO

But a third party can notify LE who can then bring the action based upon "information and belief."

 

[MyBelle]

But a third party can notify LE who can then bring the action based upon "information and belief."

I seriously doubt LE would respond to a complaint from a complete stranger. When they respond to a 911 call for domestic violence if there is no visible sign of injury they tell the couple to distance themselves, but no arrests are made.

JMO

 

[AngTxGal]

The very fact that someone is carrying a gun changes my whole impression of them.
I didn't like this guy, I am sure it was because he carried a gun.

I see a gun as nothing but a killing tool. Which makes the person carrying a potential killer. IYKWIM and absolutely no offence intended. Just trying to express the viewpoint of many in a non-gun culture.

I know that does not fit into your culture, that's why I don't live there any more. Thankfully I had a choice.

I am not offended, arguing with a person’s feelings or gut instinct shows intellectual laziness, and an unwillingness to find common ground- wouldn’t you say?
There is no part of me intending to change anyone’s mind. I don’t judge people by their opinions, I haven’t lived your life.

On a date I rode with three guys while they took one man’s children for a ride around their rural property. The kids were with me in the back seat. The driver saw a deer and proceeded to stop the truck, roll down the window, pulled out a pistol and shot several times with bullets too small to kill a deer. One pulled out a flask and they passed it around, then stepped out and urinated in front of two little girls not his daughters. It was a ‘first date’ for me, and the last time I saw any of them. I told the mom of the two little girls what had happened and asked my date to take me home. The mom was furious, all hell was about to break loose.
Most of my family does not drink. My Dad would have removed the children to safety then called the cops and reported the men.
When you see the loud obnoxious idiots demanding gun rights, trying to intimidate others with their AR-15s or the gun on their belt- know I am disgusted. Those children with beards are not men, IMO, they are an embarrassment and do not represent me, the Texas I know, or the gun culture I respect.
It wasn’t just the alcohol, shooting after dark, or from a moving vehicle, or the behavior with children alone… everyone should account for the path of every bullet out of their gun. Those idiots should have been banned from guns for rest of their lives IMO.

FYI
JMO

 

[AngTxGal]

BBM. That isn't the way Red Flag laws work. A complete stranger has no standing to go before a Judge and request confiscation of guns on an emergency basis. A mere "hunch" isn't evidence.

JMO

Of course, which means it would take days to weeks to get the evidence then to a judge to be signed, then to LE to confiscate guns. That means some human would drop the ball. It happens in CPS cases, someone puts it off and doesn‘t investigate soon enough to stop the abuse before it is too late.
While I support RedFlag Laws, I would have to see evidence to believe they could make a dramatic difference. There isn’t funding in most cities for new positions to cover the added work this makes for LE and judges- to catch the few that could end up harming someone.

JMO

 

[AngTxGal]

The men in your life go to movies and restaurants, church and stores wearing a gun? Why? And why only the men?

I didn’t list any of specific places, I said ‘evening’ and with general public. Yes, movies and restaurants. I’m not a church goer, and I typically don’t shop with my husband.

Just guessing… my husband feels like he is being protective so he carries. All of them have concealed carry lidense- passed all the background checks and shooting tests. In Texas you no longer have to have a CCL, but these men have had permits for many many decades. My sister’s husband is LE, my friend’s husband was in the service.

It may not be only the men, I carry in my car when I travel. Yes, I’ve passed all the tests etc. My sister may have a little Derringer in her purse, she is licensed.

I don’t ask the men, I know them well, and know where to look.
A holster under their clothing, the gun is under their left armpit.
Others in the mid of their back, left side on the belt, or inside of the ankle on left leg.

Where we live there is almost zero crime, I grew up in the country and so did my husband. We typically gather in someone’s home in the country but do go out sometimes.
My husband always tells me if he is carrying, and asks if I mind or think he should. If he feels like he wants to- I have no issues with it And want to know where it is.

JMO

 

[AngTxGal]

I seriously doubt LE would respond to a complaint from a complete stranger. When they respond to a 911 call for domestic violence if there is no visible sign of injury they tell the couple to distance themselves, but no arrests are made.

JMO

And yet that is one more reason why so many die due to DV. Men learn to hit women and children where it doesn’t show- not in the face.
There should always be an arrest, IMO and if there are witnesses to the violence then it makes sense weapons would be taken- problem is a kitchen knife can be a weapon.
1/3 Texans are victims of DV, more women than men
On avg about 400-500 deaths in Texas per year due to DV WFAA News
About 200 women, most are African American, and Houston is the city with the most

One more reason not to live in Houston, or any large city

JMO

 

[MyBelle]

Of course, which means it would take days to weeks to get the evidence then to a judge to be signed, then to LE to confiscate guns. That means some human would drop the ball. It happens in CPS cases, someone puts it off and doesn‘t investigate soon enough to stop the abuse before it is too late.
While I support RedFlag Laws, I would have to see evidence to believe they could make a dramatic difference. There isn’t funding in most cities for new positions to cover the added work this makes for LE and judges- to catch the few that could end up harming someone.

JMO

No, it does not take days. It is similar to obtaining an Emergency Order of Protection involving domestic violence which can be obtained in a matter of a few hours. I have posted many links.

So far, plenty of evidence shows Red Flag laws have made a dramatic difference. If I have a loved one or a friend showing signs of mental instability, extreme depression, I don't want them anywhere near a gun.

Can ‘red flag’ laws curb gun violence? Here’s what the research says.

There is research showing red flag laws may be effective in preventing suicides, along with a growing body of research on mass shootings.

journalistsresource.org

 

[AngTxGal]

No, it does not take days. It is similar to obtaining an Emergency Order of Protection involving domestic violence which can be obtained in a matter of a few hours. I have posted many links.

So far, plenty of evidence shows Red Flag laws have made a dramatic difference. If I have a loved one or a friend showing signs of mental instability, extreme depression, I don't want them anywhere near a gun.

Can ‘red flag’ laws curb gun violence? Here’s what the research says.

There is research showing red flag laws may be effective in preventing suicides, along with a growing body of research on mass shootings.

journalistsresource.org

Here an Emergency Order of Protection follows an arrest due to domestic violence.
There are several types of documents that are similar, Temporary Restraining Orders, SA Protective Orders, Trafficking Protective Orders, DV Protective Orders, Peace Bonds.
It looks like a person can file a Temporary Restraining Order that is to give them protection until they go to a hearing, in two weeks to present evidence for a Protective Order.
I find no estimation of time from filing application to getting a Temporary Restraining Order. The application is extensive, requires a notary to witness signature, then viewed by a judge.
Protective Orders are public info, a person can search to find the status and when one is granted in the Texas Protective Order Registry.
I would say that the process is multiple hoops to jump through, if I was in danger I would want a place to go that is safe first- like a shelter.
Texas Orders of Protection

Yes, RedFlags seem like they would help.
For the shootings where many knew there were issues, lots of documentation, and nothing happened as a result- RedFlag laws would help If acted upon immediately.

Oxford High School- His dad bought the gun for him, he was too young only 14. He practiced shooting at a range with his mother. He got gun and ammo took it to school with the intent to use it. He wrote threats on a Math paper. The teacher took the paper to the counselor. They brought him to the counselor. His parents were called and came to the school. His parents were asked to take him home, they left him at school. He shot and killed four people, injured seven with the gun that was in his backpack the entire time.
Would RedFlag laws have prevented Oxford? No. They take too long, and no who was willing to provide evidence knew he had a gun.
Just maybe his parents will be just the first to serve time, then others won’t assume their child is an angel. They will get them real help.

JMO

 

[MyBelle]

Here an Emergency Order of Protection follows an arrest due to domestic violence.
There are several types of documents that are similar, Temporary Restraining Orders, SA Protective Orders, Trafficking Protective Orders, DV Protective Orders, Peace Bonds.
It looks like a person can file a Temporary Restraining Order that is to give them protection until they go to a hearing, in two weeks to present evidence for a Protective Order.
I find no estimation of time from filing application to getting a Temporary Restraining Order. The application is extensive, requires a notary to witness signature, then viewed by a judge.
Protective Orders are public info, a person can search to find the status and when one is granted in the Texas Protective Order Registry.
I would say that the process is multiple hoops to jump through, if I was in danger I would want a place to go that is safe first- like a shelter.
Texas Orders of Protection

Yes, RedFlags seem like they would help.
For the shootings where many knew there were issues, lots of documentation, and nothing happened as a result- RedFlag laws would help If acted upon immediately.

Oxford High School- His dad bought the gun for him, he was too young only 14. He practiced shooting at a range with his mother. He got gun and ammo took it to school with the intent to use it. He wrote threats on a Math paper. The teacher took the paper to the counselor. They brought him to the counselor. His parents were called and came to the school. His parents were asked to take him home, they left him at school. He shot and killed four people, injured seven with the gun that was in his backpack the entire time.
Would RedFlag laws have prevented Oxford? No. They take too long, and no who was willing to provide evidence knew he had a gun.
Just maybe his parents will be just the first to serve time, then others won’t assume their child is an angel. They will get them real help.

JMO

I'm not familiar with Texas law. Here, an ex-parte emergency order of protection can be obtained prior to an arrest. Photos, text messages, witnesses are used to persuade a judge. That is the entire point: to protect the victim from further violence. That is the entire point of Red Flag laws.

JMO