Identified! Greece - LIVING 4 year old, with Roma couple, Oct'13 - #1

[~n/t~]

I think it very possible this girl is not missing at all. Possible she was born to a trafficked young woman, or a poor prostitute woman from another country in or around Greece "working".
Maybe she was born in a brothel not a hospital, and traffickers left the baby where the Roma would find her....Maybe the Roma women helped birth the baby? If they had her to sell her they would have while she was a baby. At least whoever responsible didn't leave her in the trash, throw her to the river or abort her. I feel someone cared enough to let her live.
I see many harsh comments about the Roma people stealing and begging and I don't believe it is all deserved. If I were cast from society as they are, no telling what I would do to feed my family?
I am thankful for a family that taught us not to judge by race or color of skin. Although the Roma couple/people may not be pure or "sinfree" WHO IS? This woman looks heartbroken.

I read she gave many versions of how they got the child. Why not just say the truth?

 

[greengables]

I;m not sure how a kid in "overall good health" can be considered abused or seriously neglected:

I would think that the social services are taking into account the child's emotional well being as well as her overall health, that she is well fed and in good health does not necessarily mean that she is not being abused physically or emotionally.

The fact that she is being used to beg and being exploited for financial gain can be classed as abuse alone.

 

[vlpate]

The suspects were also identified as 39-year-old Christos Salis and a 40-year-old woman who used the names Eleftheria Dimopoulou and Selini Sali.

http://news.yahoo.com/greek-police-release-photos-abduction-suspects-152806615.html

I don't know, I'm looking at these three and I see, in order: protective mother, ornery glint in Maria's eyes, and a very "oh s***t" expression from the man. I just don't sense evil here, at all. JMO

 

[whovillebaby]

Out of fear I would imagine....or to protect the girl. They are uneducated people.

 

[vlpate]

I would think that the social services are taking into account the child's emotional well being as well as her overall health, that she is well fed and in good health does not necessarily mean that she is not being abused physically or emotionally.

The fact that she is being used to beg and being exploited for financial gain can be classed as abuse alone.

Is there proof that she was being used for begging, etc.,? Not questioning you, I'm just not super familiar with this case. thanks.

 

[Inana]

Can anyone tell me why Hristos Salis has a criminal record? What has he done in the past?

 

[greengables]

I have a dear friend who is from the Roma community in UK so am in no way trying to paint the community in a bad light, but I do think that you cannot say that UK, Spanish and Irish Roma strictly behave the same as Greek, Bulgarian Roma etc, there must be some variation between tribes, countries etc.

I know of two attempted abductions that happened in Moraira, Spain a few years ago where Moroccan Gypsies were implicated but never caught. One was the attempted abduction of an infant from her high chair, her mother had nipped into another room and when she returned two women were trying to take the child out of the chair, stories like this happen but don't necessarily make international news.

 

[whovillebaby]

It is their custom to teach the girls to dance. It has also become their custom to teach the children to beg for money...sad but true. In certain rings the child traffickers are taking groups of Roma children to the city and teaching them to pick pocket and steal.
There is a difference in my mind at least...not a crime to dance and not a crime to beg, but stealing is stealing!

 

[whovillebaby]

I have a dear friend who is from the Roma community in UK so am in no way trying to paint the community in a bad light, but I do think that you cannot say that UK, Spanish and Irish Roma strictly behave the same as Greek, Bulgarian Roma etc, there must be some variation between tribes, countries etc.

I know of two attempted abductions that happened in Moraira, Spain a few years ago where Moroccan Gypsies were implicated but never caught. One was the attempted abduction of an infant from her high chair, her mother had nipped into another room and when she returned two women were trying to take the child out of the chair, stories like this happen but don't necessarily make international news.

certainly different ways of different tribes...

 

[vlpate]

What Madeline McCann has on her eye is called a coloboma. So I think we can say with high certainty that based on the eyes alone, Maria is not Madeline.

Agewise, it's totally off too.

I didn't follow the MM case closely, but I did listen to the news when it was being reported - I never knew this about her eye. This is something they should emphasize more - no mistaking her for someone else.

Heartbreakingly precious little girl.

 

[HauntsForHope]

She looks Albanian, likely from Kosovo. http://www.sos-childrensvillages.org/where-we-help/europe/kosovo

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/kosovo-can-you-imagine/

 

[greengables]

Is there proof that she was being used for begging, etc.,? Not questioning you, I'm just not super familiar with this case. thanks.

I'm not sure if the police have physical evidence, just the word of locals perhaps?

The charity received reports that the girl was forced to beg for money in the streets but its director, Costas Giannopoulos, said she was in good health.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/worl...-parents-of-girl-found-in-roma-camp-1.1566962

 

[HauntsForHope]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/27412590@N05/6322475029

 

[mrsward]

Is there proof that she was being used for begging, etc.,? Not questioning you, I'm just not super familiar with this case. thanks.

Hiya.. in one of the links i posted it claimed the family sold fruit and baskets (though looking at the siezed goods photo i think it was a little more than fruit they was selling !!)

 

[Owutatangledweb]

Tried to Quote and it didn't work. My message here pertains to the list in a prior post of alleged gypsy kidnappings in the past. ONe of them out of New York (old article) says the child was taken in Missouri.

I find it more than odd that when I read about the potential of a gypsy kidnapping, the State of Missouri is mentioned. Is there some kind of high population of Gypsies there?

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=F1091EF93D5512738DDDA10994D9415B868CF1D3

Also Elisabeth Gill allegations. And, we've talked about Lisa Irwin here (also in Missouri).

Just weird to me.

 

[mjak]

You make some excellent points, and I agree with most, but they cannot send a child back to people who are implicated in criminal activity and have not legally adopted the child or legally become her guardians.

Absolutly Gitana if these people are implicated in criminal behavior than than this child should not be returned to them. I do not dispute that all. The issue I have is for these people how they obtained this child in there community it may not be seen as criminal. We are so fast to judge other by our western norms and that can result in us jumping to unfair conclusions. No child should ever live in an abusive environment, no child should ever be stolen or sold. However, we don't know that either of these situations applies to this child. The fact the neighbors went thru the trouble of staging the home for photos is telling to me. None of us can tell from a few photos, most taken on the day the child was removed from the only home she ever knew if she was abused or not. We can not look at this family through our western lens and judge them. We need a lot of research, exploration and study before we can judge and not the kind we can do on the internet, IMO. Trial by media is very faulty.

 

[looks like rain]

Hiya.. in one of the links i posted it claimed the family sold fruit and baskets (though looking at the siezed goods photo i think it was a little more than fruit they was selling !!)

I didn't see the seized goods photo. Can someone post that for me? TIA

 

[gitana1]

Ok, but my main concern was seeing the actual articles, not about being an insider as I just thought you misspoke about that.



Ok, I see what you are saying about a few of these cases, esp the Travelers (although I'm not certain you can say any Adams is a gypsy nor that everyone else is just making things up because they dislike gypsies (not that they don't do that). However, just because no one is arrested or it is not proven doesn't mean it hasn't happened either - it would be more difficult, I think, to document cases in such a culture anyway. And, it may not be direct kidnapping but looking for children and babies they can take on - who knows how or what else is connected.

As I said, to me, the major point is child exploitation no matter how they get the kids. It's not ok to kidnap kids either just because they are from your same broad cultural group. But, I know, I know, we are talking about this because it is a blonde fair skinned girl.

Two publications are in Spanish (sorry), but one is also in English. I'm proud of my publications and wish I could link them. The mods have my info. But I'm simply not comfortable linking my personal info in an open forum.

Anyhow, I am explaining various portions of my research here. I suppose I could try to link to a redacted version of the one in English, if you would like.

 

[whovillebaby]

It is their custom to teach the girls to dance. It has also become their custom to teach the children to beg for money...sad but true. In certain rings the child traffickers are taking groups of Roma children to the city and teaching them to pick pocket and steal.
There is a difference in my mind at least...not a crime to dance and not a crime to beg, but stealing is stealing!

I would like to add that my heart hurts that they, as a society are looked down upon and treated like less, but bringing bad karma on yourself and claiming children in multiple places as her own for monetary benefits is wrong. This is where I see how some a very bad opinion of Roma clans.

Maybe some are grandchildren or relatives she is looking after, but cmon they are not all hers.
Of course I don't know how child welfare is in Greece, but you would think there would be a system in place by now to account for men, women, and children in the Roma village. The Greek Counsel just takes the Roma's word for it that they have 14 kids, and puts them on the dole? No documents?

 

[factchecker]

I don't know either but the chances of this child being kesse's is slim to none. Getting JK to Greece would be impossible. If she was trafficked there would be a better chance of her being in Mexico or South America.

I wish people could keep and open mind. There's another part of this I haven't yet stated. I'm trying to gauge if this is a typical internet forum, or a superlative one where people want to come together to help the families. I'm hoping it's the latter.