Identified! Greece - LIVING 4 year old, with Roma couple, Oct'13 - #1

[gitana1]

I've read stories of the gypsies maiming children to garner sympathy, IOW, more earning potential. I wonder how true this is.

I've heard of this in India, among child slaves, but with Gypsies, I doubt it, although I have heard the rumors. The tribes are all interrelated and everyone knows one another. The people who allow their kids to be trafficked will see their children again and likely do several times a year for weddings and funerals. It is not unusual for older kids to be hit, slapped, etc., but more serious abuse would be frowned upon, in general, and anyone who maimed a child would likely be killed. However, there are many accidents and birth defects among Gypsies, especially poorer ones and some authorities may believe a child had been maimed. Some might even claim they had to garner more sympathy for begging purposes.

Even among my own people, despite their relative prosperity, you see more than the average amount of defects and conditions. That is attributable to continual intermarriage within a small population.

 

[time]

I sent the proof to Salem and Tricia.

Ok, but my main concern was seeing the actual articles, not about being an insider as I just thought you misspoke about that.

My responses in green.

Ok, I see what you are saying about a few of these cases, esp the Travelers (although I'm not certain you can say any Adams is a gypsy nor that everyone else is just making things up because they dislike gypsies (not that they don't do that). However, just because no one is arrested or it is not proven doesn't mean it hasn't happened either - it would be more difficult, I think, to document cases in such a culture anyway. And, it may not be direct kidnapping but looking for children and babies they can take on - who knows how or what else is connected.

As I said, to me, the major point is child exploitation no matter how they get the kids. It's not ok to kidnap kids either just because they are from your same broad cultural group. But, I know, I know, we are talking about this because it is a blonde fair skinned girl.

 

[gxm]

I sent the proof to Salem and Tricia.



I kind of sense a negative attitude about my "claims" to be a Roma expert. I am sorry if I;m upsetting people. I think I have been very polite. If not, please let me know.

There are blondes and redheads among Gypsies. They have been in Europe for 2000 years. There is bound to be some genetic mutation at some point and once in a while, an Irish Traveller has been accepted into the clan. But they become Gypsies, totally and are no longer considered outsiders. Gypsies would not marry outsiders.But can it ever be said that there was one or two cases in 2000 years of a Gypsy woman falling for a local and doing something behind her families' back, then trying to pass the child off as her husband's? Sure.



I can verify that this legend is actually told to many Gypsy kids.



My responses in green.

You are not the only commenter claiming to be a Roma "expert." I used scare quotes because it is my word, to the best of my knowledge no one has actually called themselves an expert. What I find frustrating is that y'all keep contradicting each other.

Regardless, clearly Roma people are intermixing even they are doing it in secret. However, none of this has anything to do with M**** who has been tested and is not related to the people who claim she is their daughter.

 

[gxm]

I understand how it could boggle your mind. Things are not always black and white. I think the likilihood that some parents are missing there child is small. Of course that needs to be throughly evaluated. It is not acceptable to hand over children to strangers to raise or sell children. However, this practice in this case maybe more a reflection of cultural differences than criminal behavior. Of course these people have to be made to understand that they must comply with the law and these behviors must cease. However, for this child if she had not been mistreated in anyway and these folks can provide for her and they do love and want her ripping her from them IMO is not in her best interest. There is lots that needs to be found out before one could even consider returning her to them but IMO the bonds she has with these folks and there cultural norms do need to be considered when evaulated what is in the best interest of the child and how this couple should be treated. The bottom line unequivicly is the wellbeing of this child.

M**** was described as being physically and psychologically neglected. She is not their daughter either genetically or legally. There is no way she should be returned to a life of poverty and neglect with these grifters. IMO, I see no evidence of bonding. The poor child looks withdrawn and distant in every photo we've seen, even the pictures taken before she was found.

 

[raeann]

I understand how it could boggle your mind. Things are not always black and white. I think the likilihood that some parents are missing there child is small. Of course that needs to be throughly evaluated. It is not acceptable to hand over children to strangers to raise or sell children. However, this practice in this case maybe more a reflection of cultural differences than criminal behavior. Of course these people have to be made to understand that they must comply with the law and these behviors must cease. However, for this child if she had not been mistreated in anyway and these folks can provide for her and they do love and want her ripping her from them IMO is not in her best interest. There is lots that needs to be found out before one could even consider returning her to them but IMO the bonds she has with these folks and there cultural norms do need to be considered when evaulated what is in the best interest of the child and how this couple should be treated. The bottom line unequivicly is the wellbeing of this child.

This child can not be returned to parents who are likely going to be in jail soon on drug and weapons charges, not to mention defrauding government assistance programs. Add to that the fact that she was found filthy and neglected and there were signs of abuse! IF there is no match to parents who have filed a missing child report, perhaps a concerned relative WILL identify the child and the child can be placed with that person. The cultural bonds would be considered IF the child was actually from that culture. However, there is no indication that is the case. Therefore, her REAL cultural heritage should be identified and taken into consideration in her future placement. The child appears to be neither bonded NOR happy in any of the photos where she is shown with the false "parents", nor does she appear comfortable or joyful in any way during the video of her forced participation in the "cultural" dance.

jmo

 

[Cherry]

She needs to be ran for Madelienes DNA. No ifs ands or buts. I couldn't read back; going afk but just need to say that they must find her relatives, no matter who they are. She does appear totally neglected to me. Braids or no braids. Could be hair dye could be henna; could be wine grapes for all I know!

hehe So If DNA has been done to compare to Madeleine just slap me upside the head, I'll feel it, lol!

They need to run the familial dna; to narrow things down. Can you imagine, all these kids; just given "up" to them? I don't even want to imgaine the horrors for 1 sec; after seeing their photos.

 

[Inana]

I'm only on page 14 of this thread, but found this and thought interesting. Please excuse me if it has been discussed.

Though first described as a four-year old, the head of the Greek charity Smile of the Child, which has been caring for her, told local media dental checks suggest Maria is between five to six years old.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/greece/10393394/Maria-mystery-Roma-couple-charged-with-child-abduction.html

Also, regarding the little girl bedroom that was set up for media, it sure looked to me like all those shoes were different sizes.

 

[~n/t~]

She needs to be ran for Madelienes DNA. No ifs ands or buts. I couldn't read back; going afk but just need to say that they must find her relatives, no matter who they are. She does appear totally neglected to me. Braids or no braids. Could be hair dye could be henna; could be wine grapes for all I know!

hehe So If DNA has been done to compare to Madeleine just slap me upside the head, I'll feel it, lol!

They need to run the familial dna; to narrow things down. Can you imagine, all these kids; just given "up" to them? I don't even want to imgaine the horrors for 1 sec; after seeing their photos.

Madeleine would be 10 years old. This child is 6 or 7 years old. She is not madeleine. Also I'm sure Scotland Yard would be all over this case if it was Maddie

 

[gitana1]

I forgot about a thread we had in the parking lot which was solely about Gypsy culture and missing children. It's from 2011. It may be of benefit here (or not). You can find it in the Jury Room. It's called: Gypsy Heritage and Its Relevance to the Missing.

 

[gitana1]

This child can not be returned to parents who are likely going to be in jail soon on drug and weapons charges, not to mention defrauding government assistance programs. Add to that the fact that she was found filthy and neglected and there were signs of abuse! IF there is no match to parents who have filed a missing child report, perhaps a concerned relative WILL identify the child and the child can be placed with that person. The cultural bonds would be considered IF the child was actually from that culture. However, there is no indication that is the case. Therefore, her REAL cultural heritage should be identified and taken into consideration in her future placement. The child appears to be neither bonded NOR happy in any of the photos where she is shown with the false "parents", nor does she appear comfortable or joyful in any way during the video of her forced participation in the "cultural" dance.

jmo

I;m not sure how a kid in "overall good health" can be considered abused or seriously neglected:

The young girl found in the Roma settlement had been registered in Athens, from where the couple had obtained a birth certificate. Giannopoulos' charity said none of the children declared missing in Greece matched the girl's profile, and that she is undergoing medical examinations though she seems in overall good health. http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162...-gypsy-camp-sparks-child-trafficking-worries/

 

[Norwegian]

She needs to be ran for Madelienes DNA. No ifs ands or buts. I couldn't read back; going afk but just need to say that they must find her relatives, no matter who they are. She does appear totally neglected to me. Braids or no braids. Could be hair dye could be henna; could be wine grapes for all I know!

hehe So If DNA has been done to compare to Madeleine just slap me upside the head, I'll feel it, lol!

They need to run the familial dna; to narrow things down. Can you imagine, all these kids; just given "up" to them? I don't even want to imgaine the horrors for 1 sec; after seeing their photos.

What Madeline McCann has on her eye is called a coloboma. So I think we can say with high certainty that based on the eyes alone, Maria is not Madeline.

Agewise, it's totally off too.

 

[gitana1]

You are not the only commenter claiming to be a Roma "expert." I used scare quotes because it is my word, to the best of my knowledge no one has actually called themselves an expert. What I find frustrating is that y'all keep contradicting each other.

Regardless, clearly Roma people are intermixing even they are doing it in secret. However, none of this has anything to do with M**** who has been tested and is not related to the people who claim she is their daughter.

I don't know of anyone else claiming to be an expert. But you are right, she is not their daughter. The discussion was about the slim possibility that she is a Gypsy kid, hence the discussion about intermixing. Based on my experience and research, intermixing is "mahrime" and doesn't happen much among tribes like this one. Among my own people, who have not been nomadic for 200 years, there is intermixing, but in the old days, either they were cast out or the outsider was adopted in.

One part of the discussion had to do with whether or not a Gypsy woman could have had an affair with a Canadian, for example and given birth to this baby. My opinion is no way. Not among these Gypsies especially, who are much more rigid with tradition than my people.

 

[factchecker]

How would kesse end up in Greece?

I don't know. How do any traffickers move their victims around?

 

[Curious Me]

Interesting BBC documentary re Romanian Gyspy children. A blonde child would stand out like a sore thumb in the midst of these children....attract more attention during "expeditions" into stores, etc.

I had no idea this kind of fearless stealing went on anywhere. Mere children robbing people at ATMs. Children being encouraged to steal out of strangers backpacks. Young teens boasting of the money they can make stealing. It really saddens and upsets me.

That's it, I have nothing intelligent to say.

 

[Kaliste]

Is anyone familiar with the Greek child social services? I see this little girl is with (what I've been assuming) a private organization at the moment. If her parents or natural relatives aren't found will she go into foster cafe? Be adopted out right away? Stay with the organization until she ages out? Live in an orphanage type care setting?

I'm so curious as to how this works.

 

[Curious Me]

Thanks Norwegian for posting - What Madeline McCann has on her eye is called a coloboma. Being on here is always a learning experience. BBM


Coloboma - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The incidence of coloboma is estimated at around 0.5 to 0.7 per 10,000 births, making it a relatively rare condition."

 

[~n/t~]

I don't know. How do any traffickers move their victims around?

I don't know either but the chances of this child being kesse's is slim to none. Getting JK to Greece would be impossible. If she was trafficked there would be a better chance of her being in Mexico or South America.

 

[killarney rose]

She needs to be ran for Madelienes DNA. No ifs ands or buts. I couldn't read back; going afk but just need to say that they must find her relatives, no matter who they are. She does appear totally neglected to me. Braids or no braids. Could be hair dye could be henna; could be wine grapes for all I know!

hehe So If DNA has been done to compare to Madeleine just slap me upside the head, I'll feel it, lol!

They need to run the familial dna; to narrow things down. Can you imagine, all these kids; just given "up" to them? I don't even want to imgaine the horrors for 1 sec; after seeing their photos.

She doesn't look anything like Madeline.

 

[whovillebaby]

I think it very possible this girl is not missing at all. Possible she was born to a trafficked young woman, or a poor prostitute woman from another country in or around Greece "working".
Maybe she was born in a brothel not a hospital, and traffickers left the baby where the Roma would find her....Maybe the Roma women helped birth the baby? If they had her to sell her they would have while she was a baby. At least whoever responsible didn't leave her in the trash, throw her to the river or abort her. I feel someone cared enough to let her live.
I see many harsh comments about the Roma people stealing and begging and I don't believe it is all deserved. If I were cast from society as they are, no telling what I would do to feed my family?
I am thankful for a family that taught us not to judge by race or color of skin. Although the Roma couple/people may not be pure or "sinfree" WHO IS? This woman looks heartbroken.

 

[dotr]

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/n...abducting-mystery-girl-released-29677699.html
bbm

"Roma, a poor people in a country devastated by an economic crisis, try to make a living on the outskirts of Farsala by selling fruits, carpets, blankets, baskets and shoes. They are already stereotyped by some in Greece and elsewhere in Europe as social outcasts, thieves and beggars - and now fear they will be stigmatised as child traffickers as well.

The president of the local Roma community, Babis Dimitriou, hopes there is no backlash against the 2,000 Roma living in the community.

The case "doesn't reflect on all of us," he said yesterday.

But regional police chief Lt Gen Vassilis Halatsis said the authorities have found "dozens" of child trafficking cases involving Bulgarian Roma in Greece"