Identified! Greece - LIVING 4 year old, with Roma couple, Oct'13 - #1

[gitana1]

I understand. I think they could have just been linked without comment that you were the author or linking related studies so we have an opportunity to see the date published, the type of journal, other publications where they are cited as well as differing opinions and so forth. It's not proving you are the author and I am certainly not contesting you are a verified attorney (I think you mistakenly said insider), it's about other posters being able to read and evaluate the information for themselves.

I think the main point here is the exploitation of children and how many and how extensive is it. Exploiting their own children as well as the many criminal charges against them that do not have to do with Maria is as important as finding this child in my opinion. I know that there may, in fact, not be all the children they were claiming. It would be great if more missing children are found and there is still a possibility of that.

No problem. I will get the proof to a mod ASAP.

 

[dotr]

Is there still the assumption that her dad is Canadian? If so how do they know?

These events happened to many pregnant, young Canadian females..
bbm
http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/0...sedly-stillborn-babies-were-stolen-from-them/


"“I never wanted to give up any child of mine for adoption,” the Edmonton mother swore in an affidavit before her recent death. “I went through my entire life believing that the baby I carried in 1963 had died…. I believe that I was lied to and my baby was stolen from me.”

Since the National Post launched an investigation earlier this month into coerced adoptions between the 1940s and 1980s, dozens of mothers have said they were forced by social workers, medical staff and churches into surrendering their child because they were young and unmarried.

But some of these women say they never surrendered their child at all: They say they were told their child was stillborn or died shortly after birth, when in reality they allege their baby was adopted or essentially handed to a married couple.

“In those days, it was just said the child was dead because that way the mother wouldn’t look for it,” said Lise Pageau, a regional director at Mouvement Retrouvailles supporting adoptees and natural parents, adding that she has personally spoken with at least a half-dozen mothers who allege this happened to them. “[Nurses and doctors] would show the mother a very, very, very sick baby and say the child would not pull through the night. Sometimes the child was already promised to a couple.”

The Edmonton mother’s daughter, who cannot be identified because of a publication ban, is suing the woman who raised her and the hospital where she was born, alleging that her adoptive mother and a doctor wrongfully arranged for her adoption some 40 years ago.

The daughter found her natural mother in 2004, but her mother thought she was “crazy,” court documents say. A DNA test later confirmed they were kin.

It is difficult to know for certain how often Canadian women were lied to about their baby dying. Unless a woman was contacted by her child later in life, she would not know that her allegedly dead child was actually alive"

 

[SweetT]

Do they still use ink to fingerprint people? The last several times that I have gotten fingerprinted, it has been done with a scanner, though admittedly, it has all been in the US.

I was thinking it looks similar to the dye in her hair, which may have been dip dyed more recently.

The last time I was fingerprinted it was a scan also, but the time before that in a different state for licensing purposes for my job, about three yrs ago it was done with the ink. And it looked exactly like this little girls fingers. So I guess it depends on where its done and if they have the scanner or not yet. Like I said mine was fairly recent within the last few yrs.

 

[gxm]

One of the differences, genetically speaking, is that people (who claim to be Roma "experts") keep insisting that the Roma don't blend/marry/procreate with people outside their community. Whereas, a Greek (or other European) person is much more mixed than the Roma bloodline allegedly is.

IMO, we need to stop comparing Roma physical features with other ethnic/regional cultures that are not as consanguine. If Roma people are as insular as some are claiming, there will not be the same amount of physical variation as seen in other cultures. Further, there should also be more congenital disease, autosomal recessive disorders, than seen in populations that intermix.

Whatever any of this has to do with these poor children this couple has been using for public assistance is anyone's guess. Little M**** is not related to these two, that has already been proven with a DNA test. And it's a fairly safe bet that more than a few of the dark-haired children they have accumulated are not related to them either.

 

[vlpate]

This article is from a police magazine published online. Not sure if it's ok to source, but taking a chance. Pretty much all factual history and information about gypsies. Aside from their total disinterest in having names, I found most interesting the story kids are told from an early age and how it explains a gypsy child's enthusiasm for stealing:

(Gypsies: Kings of Con, excerpt)A Gypsy child is raised being told the tale of the young Gypsy boy who saved the life of Jesus. The tale (with some variation) tells of four nails made to be used in the crucifixion: one each for the hands of Jesus, one for his feet and the fourth, a nail of gold, for his heart. Late at night the Gypsy boy stole the golden nail, so when the crucifixion took place the next day, only three nails remained. God appears to the young Gypsy boy telling the child his act of thievery saved Jesus from having the nail plunged through his heart. In payment for the boy's deed, God allowed the Gypsies the right to steal with no moral consequences ... forever and ever.

 

[SweetT]

One of the differences, genetically speaking, is that people (who claim to be Roma "experts") keep insisting that the Roma don't blend/marry/procreate with people outside their community. Whereas, a Greek (or other European) person is much more mixed than the Roma bloodline allegedly is.

IMO, we need to stop comparing Roma physical features with other ethnic/regional cultures that are not as consanguine. If Roma people are as insular as some are claiming, there will not be the same amount of physical variation as seen in other cultures. Further, there should also be more congenital disease, autosomal recessive disorders, than seen in populations that intermix.

Whatever any of this has to do with these poor children this couple has been using for public assistance is anyone's guess. Little M**** is not related to these two, that has already been proven with a DNA test. And it's a fairly safe bet that more than a few of the dark-haired children they have accumulated are not related to them either.

Quite honestly we could guess and guess all day long about her ethnicity or origin. I mean I can say honestly that I see some very German features about the girl. In the end it will be DNA that determines exactly, who and where she came from.

 

[time]

Thanks, I wasn't aware. I tend to think they're telling the truth about the girl being left with them. Seems it is common for them to take care of children who have been abused/neglected/left behind. I've only heard of one kidnapping in the states by gypsies and IIRC, the child was a relative they snatched from a foster family.

Interesting info gitana, thanks.

I think this is the story you are referring to:
Arizona Gypsy Who Raised Stolen Toddler Says Girl Was Well

There are others stories. I think it's the 'documented' or whether they faced legal arrest and conviction that comes into play here:

http://www.columbiamagazine.com/index.php?sid=10343
http://www.columbiamagazine.com/index.php?sid=10333
(alleges boy was taken by gypsies but they found them and retrieved him)

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=F1091EF93D5512738DDDA10994D9415B868CF1D3
(child held for a year)

http://twocircles.net/node/72549
The violence broke out following the alleged kidnapping of a local child by a 16-year-old Roma girl. According to the child's mother, the Roma girl entered the house while the door was unlocked, picked up the child and tried to escape, but was subsequently caught.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/my-hell-at-hands-of-gypsies-1700669
(adults kidnapped for forced labor)

There's another story about a woman who is now quite old who was kidnapped by gypsies, she never knew her real name....can't find that link right now.

I think it is documented that at least some significant portion of Roma/Gypsies exploit children to beg and/or steal and/or get public assistance for. So, I am not sure they are getting these 'extra' children because they care about them. I'm not painting them all with a broad brush, however, I don't think they are all doing good either.

 

[forthelost]

I've only heard of one kidnapping in the states by gypsies and IIRC, the child was a relative they snatched from a foster family.

There's also Jesse Kaslov.

 

[SweetT]

I do believe it possible after some thought that this child was kidnapped, but not necessarily by these people. The kidnapper could have delivered the child to the waiting/adoptive/people who paid for the child and then after discovering she was not perfect (Due to an eye problem) they could have said they didn't want her. Then this would leave an area open to where these people took her in. As I don't see these people being able to afford going to such trouble.

 

[~n/t~]

I think if the dad is Canadian, he was probably a tourist who impregnated a prostitute and the child sold to these folks. He probably doesn't even know this child is his. Assumptions only

 

[modesty blaise]

Thanks, I wasn't aware. I tend to think they're telling the truth about the girl being left with them. Seems it is common for them to take care of children who have been abused/neglected/left behind. I've only heard of one kidnapping in the states by gypsies and IIRC, the child was a relative they snatched from a foster family.

Interesting info gitana, thanks.

i agree with you...... at i least i think that's closest to the truth.

 

[KariKae]

There's a picture of the couple.

Roma couple say mother gave up mystery girl to them in Greece
http://news.yahoo.com/roma-couple-mother-gave-mystery-girl-them-greece-140955277.html

OMG - No wonder the police were suspicious!

What happens if the birth parents are not located?

 

[factchecker]

Jennifer Kesse and her parents:

Since no parent or relative has come forward to claim the Greek girl, I'm thinking the child could be an offspring of someone being held captive. The captive woman can't come forward and the relatives wouldn't know there is a child.

My suggesting a connection to Kesse is not such a shot in the dark. A few years ago someone from Greece went on Wikipedia and made a very slight correction to Jennifer Kesse's bio. Why would someone in Greece be correcting a small detail on the Kesse entry? The person made only one other contribution to Wikipedia, a correction to the current age of Morgan Nick, a girl who was abducted 15 year earlier. Why would this same person in Greece suddenly know to correct Morgan's age on wikipedia right after her birthday? The case had been cold for over a decade.

 

[dotr]

"We had been seeking details for a girl aged 4. So the fact that she is older changes the nature of the search," charity director Costas Yannopoulos said. "One thing that has impressed us is that the little girl is not asking for anyone ... She is relaying the kindness she has been shown for the last three days to her dolls."

In Britain, tabloid newspapers drew parallels with missing girl Madeleine McCann, who disappeared at age 3 from a Portuguese resort six years ago. The mother of Ben Needham, a British boy missing in Greece since 1991, said she was thrilled by the news of the girl's recovery. Her toddler was 21 months old when he vanished.

Interpol, the international police agency, has 38 girls younger than 6 on its missing persons database but none of them reportedly fit the mystery girl's description.

Police have raided dozens of Gypsy settlements across Greece in the last few weeks, including four more camps Monday in Athens and Thessaloniki -- triggering concern by human rights groups that the Gypsy community as a whole was being targeted for an alleged crime involving a few of its members"

Read more: http://www.cp24.com/world/police-release-photos-of-suspected-maria-abductors-1.1505778#ixzz2iNvi3hiC

 

[~n/t~]

How would kesse end up in Greece?

 

[~n/t~]

"We had been seeking details for a girl aged 4. So the fact that she is older changes the nature of the search," charity director Costas Yannopoulos said. "One thing that has impressed us is that the little girl is not asking for anyone ... She is relaying the kindness she has been shown for the last three days to her dolls."

In Britain, tabloid newspapers drew parallels with missing girl Madeleine McCann, who disappeared at age 3 from a Portuguese resort six years ago. The mother of Ben Needham, a British boy missing in Greece since 1991, said she was thrilled by the news of the girl's recovery. Her toddler was 21 months old when he vanished.

Interpol, the international police agency, has 38 girls younger than 6 on its missing persons database but none of them reportedly fit the mystery girl's description.

Police have raided dozens of Gypsy settlements across Greece in the last few weeks, including four more camps Monday in Athens and Thessaloniki -- triggering concern by human rights groups that the Gypsy community as a whole was being targeted for an alleged crime involving a few of its members"

Read more: http://www.cp24.com/world/police-release-photos-of-suspected-maria-abductors-1.1505778#ixzz2iNvi3hiC

Thanks for that. I'll stop searching Interpol

 

[nola]

The suspects were also identified as 39-year-old Christos Salis and a 40-year-old woman who used the names Eleftheria Dimopoulou and Selini Sali.

http://news.yahoo.com/greek-police-release-photos-abduction-suspects-152806615.html

 

[mjak]

This child doesn't belong to these people. She isn't biologically related to them and was not legally adopted.
For somebody to suggest she should be returned to them simply boggles my mind.

I understand how it could boggle your mind. Things are not always black and white. I think the likilihood that some parents are missing there child is small. Of course that needs to be throughly evaluated. It is not acceptable to hand over children to strangers to raise or sell children. However, this practice in this case maybe more a reflection of cultural differences than criminal behavior. Of course these people have to be made to understand that they must comply with the law and these behviors must cease. However, for this child if she had not been mistreated in anyway and these folks can provide for her and they do love and want her ripping her from them IMO is not in her best interest. There is lots that needs to be found out before one could even consider returning her to them but IMO the bonds she has with these folks and there cultural norms do need to be considered when evaulated what is in the best interest of the child and how this couple should be treated. The bottom line unequivicly is the wellbeing of this child.

 

[gitana1]

I understand. I think they could have just been linked without comment that you were the author or linking related studies so we have an opportunity to see the date published, the type of journal, other publications where they are cited as well as differing opinions and so forth. It's not proving you are the author and I am certainly not contesting you are a verified attorney (I think you mistakenly said insider), it's about other posters being able to read and evaluate the information for themselves.

I think the main point here is the exploitation of children and how many and how extensive is it. Exploiting their own children as well as the many criminal charges against them that do not have to do with Maria is as important as finding this child in my opinion. I know that there may, in fact, not be all the children they were claiming. It would be great if more missing children are found and there is still a possibility of that.

No problem. I will get the proof to a mod ASAP.

I sent the proof to Salem and Tricia.

One of the differences, genetically speaking, is that people (who claim to be Roma "experts") keep insisting that the Roma don't blend/marry/procreate with people outside their community. Whereas, a Greek (or other European) person is much more mixed than the Roma bloodline allegedly is.

IMO, we need to stop comparing Roma physical features with other ethnic/regional cultures that are not as consanguine. If Roma people are as insular as some are claiming, there will not be the same amount of physical variation as seen in other cultures. Further, there should also be more congenital disease, autosomal recessive disorders, than seen in populations that intermix.

Whatever any of this has to do with these poor children this couple has been using for public assistance is anyone's guess. Little M**** is not related to these two, that has already been proven with a DNA test. And it's a fairly safe bet that more than a few of the dark-haired children they have accumulated are not related to them either.

I kind of sense a negative attitude about my "claims" to be a Roma expert. I am sorry if I;m upsetting people. I think I have been very polite. If not, please let me know.

There are blondes and redheads among Gypsies. They have been in Europe for 2000 years. There is bound to be some genetic mutation at some point and once in a while, an Irish Traveller has been accepted into the clan. But they become Gypsies, totally and are no longer considered outsiders. Gypsies would not marry outsiders.But can it ever be said that there was one or two cases in 2000 years of a Gypsy woman falling for a local and doing something behind her families' back, then trying to pass the child off as her husband's? Sure.

This article is from a police magazine published online. Not sure if it's ok to source, but taking a chance. Pretty much all factual history and information about gypsies. Aside from their total disinterest in having names, I found most interesting the story kids are told from an early age and how it explains a gypsy child's enthusiasm for stealing:

I can verify that this legend is actually told to many Gypsy kids.

I think this is the story you are referring to:
Arizona Gypsy Who Raised Stolen Toddler Says Girl Was Well

The child was another Gypsy child. Remember, my "claim" was related to the kidnapping of non-Gypsy kids by Gypsies.

There are others stories. I think it's the 'documented' or whether they faced legal arrest and conviction that comes into play here:

http://www.columbiamagazine.com/index.php?sid=10343
http://www.columbiamagazine.com/index.php?sid=10333
(alleges boy was taken by gypsies but they found them and retrieved him)

This was a "story" told by a couple in 1934 or 1934. It has not been proven.

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=F1091EF93D5512738DDDA10994D9415B868CF1D3
(child held for a year)

This is an article from 1906 and has to do with Gypsies stealing other Gypsy kids. Adams is a very well known Gypsy name in the U.S.

http://twocircles.net/node/72549
The violence broke out following the alleged kidnapping of a local child by a 16-year-old Roma girl. According to the child's mother, the Roma girl entered the house while the door was unlocked, picked up the child and tried to escape, but was subsequently caught.

No one was arrested or charged with attempted kidnapping in this case and it is well known that thin excuses and false allegations are made against Gypsy clans by skin heads and other locals in Italy who want an excuse to raid and remove Gypsies from a local encampment.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/my-hell-at-hands-of-gypsies-1700669
(adults kidnapped for forced labor)

These are not Gypsies. They are Irish Travellers who have zero genetic of cultural relation to Gypsies.

There's another story about a woman who is now quite old who was kidnapped by gypsies, she never knew her real name....can't find that link right now.

I think it is documented that at least some significant portion of Roma/Gypsies exploit children to beg and/or steal and/or get public assistance for. So, I am not sure they are getting these 'extra' children because they care about them. I'm not painting them all with a broad brush, however, I don't think they are all doing good either.

My responses in green.

 

[gitana1]

I understand how it could boggle your mind. Things are not always black and white. I think the likilihood that some parents are missing there child is small. Of course that needs to be throughly evaluated. It is not acceptable to hand over children to strangers to raise or sell children. However, this practice in this case maybe more a reflection of cultural differences than criminal behavior. Of course these people have to be made to understand that they must comply with the law and these behviors must cease. However, for this child if she had not been mistreated in anyway and these folks can provide for her and they do love and want her ripping her from them IMO is not in her best interest. There is lots that needs to be found out before one could even consider returning her to them but IMO the bonds she has with these folks and there cultural norms do need to be considered when evaulated what is in the best interest of the child and how this couple should be treated. The bottom line unequivicly is the wellbeing of this child.

You make some excellent points, and I agree with most, but they cannot send a child back to people who are implicated in criminal activity and have not legally adopted the child or legally become her guardians.