Identified! Greece - LIVING 4 year old, with Roma couple, Oct'13 - #2

[MissMarple]

Yes. And let me clarify. While the majority of Roma do not commit crimes, a significant minority in some groups, do, as in the case of many poor people's. But the types of crimes they commit are generally limited. Child abduction of non-Gypsies and prostitution of themselves are not among Roma crimes.

Yes in Serbia and Montenegro. I will find the article on it

 

[gitana1]

And now, this Gypsy is going to turn off her phone for mass.

 

[MissMarple]

Very interesing movie on Roma in Bulgaria Hotel Paradise on Vimeo

 

[badhorsie]

I was adopted out of a Roma family in 1964. They wanted me but had no chance. I hate the demonization of gypsies as that is where my heart is. The Roma that are my family would never give their babies away, even now I have found them they value me. There is more to this agenda that we know about. Roma want their own babies, not other peoples

 

[Brightbird]

I think some should take off the rose colored glasses and face reality for what it is. JMO.

And who's reality would that be? I don't think it's that straight forward.

 

[Wendy101]

And who's reality would that be? I don't think it's that straight forward.

it's just that i don't think any culture should be put up on a pedestal like some posters are doing here.

We are all human, we all bleed red blood, we all sin and we all die.

We do not know what the Gyspy women do, we can read about it, but who wrote about it. if it was a Gyspy that wrote it please remember it is in their culture to lie. Now what? Do we believe the books that are written?

Some like to talk about crime and the facts.. How many crimes go unknown? How many are reported? does it mean it is NOT happening?

There IS a possibility that there is a SMALL group of Gyspys at are into child trafficking, child rape. And all the other horrible crimes that take place through out the world.

There IS a possibility that some women have figured out they can charge money for sex..

Gyspy culture is not above all other nor are they perfect citizens they break their own laws too, obviously like what just happened in this case, an UNLAWFUL adoption. Sorry but the LAW is the LAW. These particular Gyspys chose to break their own law, and have probably done it prior to Maria.. There is a reason those teens are now running and hiding out...

 

[MissMarple]

it's just that i don't think any culture should be put up on a pedestal like some posters are doing here.

We are all human, we all bleed red blood, we all sin and we all die.

We do not know what the Gyspy women do, we can read about it, but who wrote about it. if it was a Gyspy that wrote it please remember it is in their culture to lie. Now what? Do we believe the books that are written?

Some like to talk about crime and the facts.. How many crimes go unknown? How many are reported? does it mean it is NOT happening?

There IS a possibility that there is a SMALL group of Gyspys at are into child trafficking, child rape. And all the other horrible crimes that take place through out the world.

There IS a possibility that some women have figured out they can charge money for sex..

Gyspy culture is not above all other nor are they perfect citizens they break their own laws too, obviously like what just happened in this case, an UNLAWFUL adoption. Sorry but the LAW is the LAW. These particular Gyspys chose to break their own law, and have probably done it prior to Maria.. There is a reason those teens are now running and hiding out...

Exactly.

 

[Cappuccino]

it's just that i don't think any culture should be put up on a pedestal like some posters are doing here.

We are all human, we all bleed red blood, we all sin and we all die.

We do not know what the Gyspy women do, we can read about it, but who wrote about it. if it was a Gyspy that wrote it please remember it is in their culture to lie. Now what? Do we believe the books that are written?

Some like to talk about crime and the facts.. How many crimes go unknown? How many are reported? does it mean it is NOT happening?

There IS a possibility that there is a SMALL group of Gyspys at are into child trafficking, child rape. And all the other horrible crimes that take place through out the world.

There IS a possibility that some women have figured out they can charge money for sex..

Gyspy culture is not above all other nor are they perfect citizens they break their own laws too, obviously like what just happened in this case, an UNLAWFUL adoption. Sorry but the LAW is the LAW. These particular Gyspys chose to break their own law, and have probably done it prior to Maria.. There is a reason those teens are now running and hiding out...

Given the centuries old history of persecution meted out to the Roma in Europe, and Eastern Europe in particular, I'm not quite so willing as you are to discern guilt in a Roma who runs and hides. The mere knowledge that they're under suspicion would be enough to make them run and hide IMO.

 

[gitana1]

it's just that i don't think any culture should be put up on a pedestal like some posters are doing here.

We are all human, we all bleed red blood, we all sin and we all die.

We do not know what the Gyspy women do, we can read about it, but who wrote about it. if it was a Gyspy that wrote it please remember it is in their culture to lie. Now what? Do we believe the books that are written?

Some like to talk about crime and the facts.. How many crimes go unknown? How many are reported? does it mean it is NOT happening?

There IS a possibility that there is a SMALL group of Gyspys at are into child trafficking, child rape. And all the other horrible crimes that take place through out the world.

There IS a possibility that some women have figured out they can charge money for sex..

Gyspy culture is not above all other nor are they perfect citizens they break their own laws too, obviously like what just happened in this case, an UNLAWFUL adoption. Sorry but the LAW is the LAW. These particular Gyspys chose to break their own law, and have probably done it prior to Maria.. There is a reason those teens are now running and hiding out...

No one is putting Gypsies up on a pedestal for goodness sake. I'm trying to simply point out some facts that show they are not as bad as so many make them out to be. I'm proud of my heritage but no people ate any better or worse than others. Just different. But stereotypes about how the culture is based on criminality need to be addressed. That was what I was responding too, you know.

ETA: Some Gypsies are indeed involved in what is deemed child trafficking by the nations they live in. But these are their own kids being sent to beg or steal with other Gypsies. Usually to pay off a debt or to send money home. There has been no proven case yet of Gypsies being involved in trafficking of kids outside the culture. That's why I stated if that was the case with Maria, it would be a first.

 

[gitana1]

Given the centuries old history of persecution meted out to the Roma in Europe, and Eastern Europe in particular, I'm not quite so willing as you are to discern guilt in a Roma who runs and hides. The mere knowledge that they're under suspicion would be enough to make them run and hide IMO.

Ate we talking about the kids who ran when the authorities came to tàke them into care? How could that possibly be evidence of criminal activity? Most kids are horrified by the thought of foster care. And Gypsies do not like to be separàted from their people or confined.

 

[ktgirl]

I love the way she was a little blonde angel when people thought she'd been kidnapped. Now we know she's a Roma child and suddenly she's an aggressive beast. Lovely.

I still think she's an angel and I'd gladly raise her. I've said it before, she looks SO much like me when I was a child, although my hair was a little bit redder.

I emailed my mom today and asked her "are you & dad sure you didn't get me from a Bulgarian Roma woman?" She really looks like one of my Polish-Ukrainian cousins.

 

[gitana1]

Exactly.

I think I'm sensing a real confusion about how crime stats are compiled. They come from arrest records, crime reports and convictions, not from asking liars and criminals if they are liars and criminals.

True, much crime is unreported, but crime stats, just like any math or science, give us a fairly accurate understanding of the global picture. And when you combine crime stats with hundreds of years of culture studies, the picture is even greater. It's not about just asking questions. Because it is true. Many Gypsies will not tell the truth to outsiders. It is about actually living with them and studying their way of life, or coming from the culture oneself, like Ian Hancock, one of the foremost Gypsy researchers.

I know some distrust science or math but they can give an accurate enough picture that we rely on them to help us do things like cure disease, develop vaccines, track health trends and needs, etc. Same thing applies here.

As to placing anyone on a pedestal, how does it go from trying to clear up the serious negative stereotype that the Gypsy culture is based on crime, to vaulting an entire people as righteous?

If I was to say that vandalism is very low in Singapore and that crime rates overall are low there, am I putting them on a pedestal? If I say that the rates of child abductions by strangers is relatively low in Spain, am I putting the Spanish on a pedestal?

How about if I say that theft among the Amish is quite uncommon?

I mean, I don;t get the logic here. Some are saying that the Roma are immersed totally in crime, that it is a way of life for them all. Others bought into the hysteria that Gypsies were running around stealing white babies and thrusting them into a sex trafficking or adoption ring.

I am responding to that with actual facts. Compiled from actual data. It's not about saying they are great, sin free people. And a logical response to the stereotypes being refuted by math and evidence, does not seem to me to be, "Well, some crimes aren't reported!" Okay, but we are talking about whether the Gypsy culture is inextricably linked to crime and whether they are involved in large scale child trafficking operations involving non-Gypsy kids.

So let me be clear. Research and crime stats show the following:

1. Most Gypsies are not criminals.
2. The myth of the Gypsy child stealer, kidnapping non-Gypsy kids is just that: A myth. There has yet to be an actual, proven case of it. Including here.
3. Gypsies do not sell or tend to adopt their kids out of the culture. But, sometimes they are taken out and forcibly adopted. That happened a lot in Romania.
4. Some Gypsies have begun to be involved in sex trafficking or prostitution. But they do not prostitute themselves. A man or woman who would do such a thing would be cast out of the group.
5. Some Gypsies are involved in child trafficking, of their own kids to other Gypsies, in order to pay off debts or send money home to the family. These kids are then used to beg and steal. Again, there is no known case of Gypsies trafficking a non-Gypsy child. I mean, do you guys really think that poor women or corrupt hospitals, or orphanages or whatever, would deal with Gypsies? When there are so many people not living in huts they can deal with in illegal adoptions?
6. Gypsies are not saints. Some do commit crimes. But they do not tend to engage in violent crime involving outsiders. The crimes they tend to be involved in include bunco fraud scams and theft.

Have their ever been exceptions to these rules? I'm sure there have been isolated cases. But we are talking, again, about what the culture is based on and what large-scale crime operations they could be involved in.

 

[Wendy101]

I think I'm sensing a real confusion about how crime stats are compiled. They come from arrest records, crime reports and convictions, not from asking liars and criminals if they are liars and criminals.

True, much crime is unreported, but crime stats, just like any math or science, give us a fairly accurate understanding of the global picture. And when you combine crime stats with hundreds of years of culture studies, the picture is even greater. It's not about just asking questions. Because it is true. Many Gypsies will not tell the truth to outsiders. It is about actually living with them and studying their way of life, or coming from the culture oneself, like Ian Hancock, one of the foremost Gypsy researchers.

I know some distrust science or math but they can give an accurate enough picture that we rely on them to help us do things like cure disease, develop vaccines, track health trends and needs, etc. Same thing applies here.

As to placing anyone on a pedestal, how does it go from trying to clear up the serious negative stereotype that the Gypsy culture is based on crime, to vaulting an entire people as righteous?

If I was to say that vandalism is very low in Singapore and that crime rates overall are low there, am I putting them on a pedestal? If I say that the rates of child abductions by strangers is relatively low in Spain, am I putting the Spanish on a pedestal?

How about if I say that theft among the Amish is quite uncommon?

I mean, I don;t get the logic here. Some are saying that the Roma are immersed totally in crime, that it is a way of life for them all. Others bought into the hysteria that Gypsies were running around stealing white babies and thrusting them into a sex trafficking or adoption ring.

I am responding to that with actual facts. Compiled from actual data. It's not about saying they are great, sin free people. And a logical response to the stereotypes being refuted by math and evidence, does not seem to me to be, "Well, some crimes aren't reported!" Okay, but we are talking about whether the Gypsy culture is inextricably linked to crime and whether they are involved in large scale child trafficking operations involving non-Gypsy kids.

So let me be clear. Research and crime stats show the following:

1. Most Gypsies are not criminals.
2. The myth of the Gypsy child stealer, kidnapping non-Gypsy kids is just that: A myth. There has yet to be an actual, proven case of it. Including here.
3. Gypsies do not sell or tend to adopt their kids out of the culture. But, sometimes they are taken out and forcibly adopted. That happened a lot in Romania.
4. Some Gypsies have begun to be involved in sex trafficking or prostitution. But they do not prostitute themselves. A man or woman who would do such a thing would be cast out of the group.
5. Some Gypsies are involved in child trafficking, of their own kids to other Gypsies, in order to pay off debts or send money home to the family. These kids are then used to beg and steal. Again, there is no known case of Gypsies trafficking a non-Gypsy child. I mean, do you guys really think that poor women or corrupt hospitals, or orphanages or whatever, would deal with Gypsies? When there are so many people not living in huts they can deal with in illegal adoptions?
6. Gypsies are not saints. Some do commit crimes. But they do not tend to engage in violent crime involving outsiders. The crimes they tend to be involved in include bunco fraud scams and theft.

Have their ever been exceptions to these rules? I'm sure there have been isolated cases. But we are talking, again, about what the culture is based on and what large-scale crime operations they could be involved in.

This case is actually about a little girl that was found in a home where the people living there did NOT have legal custody of her. According to their laws, it is illegal. The LE went in and did what they needed to do, according to law. culture or no culture unfortunately the law is the law. I hope the LE continue the job they are doing... Their job.

 

[TorisMom003]

For me the problem with the talk of how Romas or Gypsy people would or would not do this, that or whatever else is that we are talking about two specific families here. Based on what has been discovered about these two specific families there are some, and I am one of them, that believe that not only Maria but all other children involved as well would be better off placed in other homes that are not full of criminals. If one looks at the "facts" that have come out about this case then one sees that both sides have told lies concerning how Maria came to be taken in by her "adoptive" family.

For starters her "adoptive" family has said that Maria's mother was a prostitute that gave Maria to them. Then we have Maria's mother say that she gave birth but could not afford to take Maria home so gave her to her roommate to take care of and send home later, but she can't remember the woman's name or when Maria was actually born. The "adoptive" parents have their own problems with the law, the husband has an armed robbery charge on his record and the wife filled papers for 6 children that were born in 10 months of one another. The birth mother, or someone with her same name has been charged twice with attempting to sell her children (babies) to other couples and skipped out before going to trial. The "adoptive" parents were involved in a sting operation where guns, drugs, etc were taken from their community. The biological parents left home with their younger children while leaving their 14 and 10 year old children behind because the parents "were afraid of being arrested".

Based on the above I can certainly understand why the two families involved in this case are being questioned and looked at. I can understand why there are people that feel that no child should be left in their care, biological or not. This does not involve all of the Roma or Gypsy people, this involves these two families.

MOO

 

[Wendy101]

For me the problem with the talk of how Romas or Gypsy people would or would not do this, that or whatever else is that we are talking about two specific families here. Based on what has been discovered about these two specific families there are some, and I am one of them, that believe that not only Maria but all other children involved as well would be better off placed in other homes that are not full of criminals. If one looks at the "facts" that have come out about this case then one sees that both sides have told lies concerning how Maria came to be taken in by her "adoptive" family.

For starters her "adoptive" family has said that Maria's mother was a prostitute that gave Maria to them. Then we have Maria's mother say that she gave birth but could not afford to take Maria home so gave her to her roommate to take care of and send home later, but she can't remember the woman's name or when Maria was actually born. The "adoptive" parents have their own problems with the law, the husband has an armed robbery charge on his record and the wife filled papers for 6 children that were born in 10 months of one another. The birth mother, or someone with her same name has been charged twice with attempting to sell her children (babies) to other couples and skipped out before going to trial. The "adoptive" parents were involved in a sting operation where guns, drugs, etc were taken from their community. The biological parents left home with their younger children while leaving their 14 and 10 year old children behind because the parents "were afraid of being arrested".

Based on the above I can certainly understand why the two families involved in this case are being questioned and looked at. I can understand why there are people that feel that no child should be left in their care, biological or not. This does not involve all of the Roma or Gypsy people, this involves these two families.

MOO

BBM: Exactly this. ITA!

 

[pieper4]

Very interesing movie on Roma in Bulgaria Hotel Paradise on Vimeo

I was unable to find subtitles for this film, so hard-pressed to weigh in on it. Did I miss something?

 

[Linda7NJ]

For me the problem with the talk of how Romas or Gypsy people would or would not do this, that or whatever else is that we are talking about two specific families here. Based on what has been discovered about these two specific families there are some, and I am one of them, that believe that not only Maria but all other children involved as well would be better off placed in other homes that are not full of criminals. If one looks at the "facts" that have come out about this case then one sees that both sides have told lies concerning how Maria came to be taken in by her "adoptive" family.

For starters her "adoptive" family has said that Maria's mother was a prostitute that gave Maria to them. Then we have Maria's mother say that she gave birth but could not afford to take Maria home so gave her to her roommate to take care of and send home later, but she can't remember the woman's name or when Maria was actually born. The "adoptive" parents have their own problems with the law, the husband has an armed robbery charge on his record and the wife filled papers for 6 children that were born in 10 months of one another. The birth mother, or someone with her same name has been charged twice with attempting to sell her children (babies) to other couples and skipped out before going to trial. The "adoptive" parents were involved in a sting operation where guns, drugs, etc were taken from their community. The biological parents left home with their younger children while leaving their 14 and 10 year old children behind because the parents "were afraid of being arrested".

Based on the above I can certainly understand why the two families involved in this case are being questioned and looked at. I can understand why there are people that feel that no child should be left in their care, biological or not. This does not involve all of the Roma or Gypsy people, this involves these two families.

MOO

My continued problem with this is the ever changing media reports that contradict each other and have evolved since the start.

We really don't KNOW much at all and certainly not enough to state with any certainty what the facts actually are.
We know for a fact that a white, blonde, blue eyed child was removed from her psychological family that's raised her and we now know who her biological mother is. That's basically it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free

 

[TorisMom003]

But we do have the words that both families have said to media. The "adoptive" parents did state at first that Maria was the child of a prostitute, then changed that story later. The biological mother did state that she left Maria with her roommate, but couldn't remember her name or Maria's exact birth date. Based on what both of the families have stated themselves there are lies involved. Because of this then Maria does need to be removed and placed with another uninvolved family until all of this is sorted out.

MOO

 

[Elley Mae]

But we do have the words that both families have said to media. The "adoptive" parents did state at first that Maria was the child of a prostitute, then changed that story later. The biological mother did state that she left Maria with her roommate, but couldn't remember her name or Maria's exact birth date. Based on what both of the families have stated themselves there are lies involved. Because of this then Maria does need to be removed and placed with another uninvolved family until all of this is sorted out.

MOO

One story after the other has emerged from both the bio mom and the woman that has had her. The only thing so far that had been consistent is that both have said no money changed hands. It's my opinion that is because they know that is what will put them in jail. I for one do not believe that children are being passed around to others for nothing. that's just me.

 

[pukasonqo2]

That's actually not true. Gypsies indeed talk about it. There are conferences, protests and other battles for recognition and reparations, folk songs handed down, articles, etc.

The problem with calculating the exact number is that a lot of Roma did (and do) lived outside social norms or regulations, and were nomadic. With the Jews, there were birth certificates, marriage certificates and property records that could be matched up with arrest records and other Nazi data or letters from friends and relatives explaining what happened to the person. That's wasn't the case with many Gypsies, who didn't own real estate, or have birth/marriage certificates or were that literate. And many were not registered by the Nazi's who simply shot then where they found them.

I just want to caution everyone that reading some things on the Internet may not give totally accurate info. I'm seeing some misinformation relayed as fact (no disclaimers at all). For example, the only large scale genetic testing of Gypsies have linked them to one another, traced their migration patterns and linked them to specific regions in India. No genetic testing gives actual percentages of ethnicity. Articles on the Internet can also often skew academic research data.

thanks gitana,i was going by what isabel fonseca wrote and what tony gatliff said in "vengo" regarding the roma woman describing the nazis taking people away, from memory, he commented that the roma do not speak in public about it which does not mean they don't speak about it among themselves.