Gun Control Debate #1

[K_Z]

I'm a proponent of no gun sales until age 21, although I also believe that not a thing would change because of it. Not a single life would be saved, IMO.

Those who want to commit murders with guns will still do it, and find the gun/s they want thru other means.

But it would be fairly easy to pass (age 21 limit), legislatively, except for the mandatory selective service registration, and young adults in the military, young veterans with honorable discharges, ROTC, or LEO training. They would have a very good argument to make that their job requires them to be extensively trained to shoot, therefore they should have the right to purchase a long gun or handgun before age 21. We could carve out an exemption for them.

We will never, ever (IMO) come to any kind of agreement on what constitutes a mental health "barrier" to purchase. I think it's worth debating openly in society, because we have to start somewhere. We also have to admit that mental health assessment and diagnosis is not a perfect science, and there are lots of ways to avoid the mental health system.

We also have to admit openly that there are definitely people in our society that *are* permanently disabled mentally/ psychologically/ socially, and unable to be rehabilitated. There are SOME (not all) people with congenital intellectual disabilities that should never be allowed to purchase or own a gun. I understand that is a very offensive idea for some to accept, and others worry that mental health diagnosis is stigmatizing-- which it is. We have to openly accept that there are SOME individuals afflicted with things like lead poisoning, autism, ODD, FAS, etc that display such worrisome, violent behaviors, and from a young age, that they should be permanently banned from gun purchase, IMO.

I think it should be MUCH easier to get *outpatient* commitment status and legal restrictions for those with intellectual disabilities, violent behaviors, and serious mental health issues. Not "all", but SOME. NK and AL both should have qualified for outpatient commitment, IMO.

This kid, NK, had a TON of contact with mental health, school authorities, social services, multiple school placements, etc. He had pretty much THE MOST intensive approach to behavior AND mental health management tha is available in our public schools and ordinary society-- and he STILL fell thru the cracks. Every day more distressing information about exactly how much was done to control him and his behavior comes out-- and it still wasn't enough. The only thing that would have stopped NK is a criminal history preventing purchase, and/ or long term residential placement, which I firmly believe he needed. (But couldn't get because he wasn't "ill" enough, or criminal enough.)

We have to STOP shielding these teens/ young adults from the criminal justice and legal system. It is PART of WHY NK was able to purchase an AR-15 legally. Thirty plus visits to the home for violent behavior, numerous weapon and assault issues at school, terroristic threats, etc-- and the "new" policies of schools are to re-label all of these kinds of crimes as simple "behavioral" events so that the student is never referred to law enforcement or arrested. School admin are not law enforcement or mental health professionals. Kids like NK should not be mainstreamed in public schools. IMO.

We desperately need a system of residential care/ commitment/ supervision for adolescents, IMO. And a mechanism to legally compel care, medications, and commitment when they have demonstrated worrisome behavior, like Adam Lanza and Nik Cruz. I would gladly have my taxes raised to develop a functional, compassionate, but secure system of residential mental health/ behavioral care facilities for teens and young adults.

What is outpatient commitment?

Outpatient commitment—also called Assisted Outpatient Treatment (AOT) or a Community Treatment Order (CTO)—refers to a civil court procedure wherein a judge orders an individual diagnosed with severe a mental disorder who is experiencing a psychiatric crisis that requires intervention to adhere to an outpatient treatment plan designed to prevent further deterioration that is harmful to themselves or others.

This form of involuntary treatment is distinct from involuntary commitment in that the individual subject to the court order continues to live in their home community rather than being detained in hospital or incarcerated. The individual may be subject to rapid recall to hospital, including medication over objection, if the conditions of the order are broken, and the person's mental health deteriorates. This generally means taking psychiatric medication as directed and may also include attending appointments with a mental health professional, and sometimes even not to take non-prescribed illicit drugs and not associate with certain people or in certain places deemed to have been linked to a deterioration in mental health in that individual.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outpatient_commitment

 

[K_Z]

Respectfully , it would be a helluva lot sadder if a teacher shot a terrorist who detonated a belt or a vest before dying.

Teachers cannot be trained to marksman level or take the authority to kill a gunman with a head shot in case he is actually a terrorist..

BBM. Why not? Certainly teachers, and others in "helping professions" like health care professionals, social workers, etc CAN be trained to be expert marksmen, if they have the desire and ability.

 

[kaen]

I wrote this on the last gun control thread--

I have worked in schools with metal detectors. They work. It is important to note that in order for the metal detectors to be effective you need safety officers to do the scans of the materials brought with students and scanning the students. One school I was in had over 4000 students. In order to scan the students in less than 20 minutes, there had be 6 machines with 2 officers on each machine and an extra lane for hand searches of children in wheelchairs or with metal walking aids. There was also an officer who escorted visitors toward signing in and watched the controlled seating area until visitors were met by school officials. Our building has no less than 20 officers each day at the building. After the morning scans, the detector area was broken down to two lanes that were supervised all day.


Our officers routine canvased the building to ensure that doors were locked and secure. There was a whole separate area for video surveillance of the outside perimeter.

I am now adding this....

Students don't all arrive at school at the same time. Scanning students and covering the perimeter of a building is doable but it costs money in machines and resource officers. Students in urban areas have been doing this action for a very, very, very long time.

When it comes to security we have to stop saying, "We can't afford it." I think the more we say that it leaves the solution to polar opposites. I am not for armed teachers but certainly could see having armed school resource officers with secured doors, secured outside areas, and metal detectors. I want our teachers to focus on teaching with professionals focused on security. I think our students are asking for visual cues that we are looking out for their safety.

I happen to agree that semi-automatic rifles and modifications to make them automatic-like should be outlawed. But at the very least --not to under 21, not to history of domestic or child abuse, no gun show loopholes, no history of mental illness, see a judge if there is a question of stability with police being able to secure your weapon, enhanced background checks, and mandatory training with a large safety component. In Parkland, this killer bought his own gun. However, we have had other shootings with semi-automatics where the question is asked how did the kid get the gun and I don't recall hearing the answer--- maybe I need to be more dogged in getting the answer. I also believe that if you own a gun you should be responsible for having ti secured and unavailable to anyone except the registered user -- jail time for those who don't secure their weapons in a safe that is mounted to a wall with a lock and locked safe with a loss of your ability to keep weapons after you are convicted.

Let's get serious all the way around.

 

[K_Z]

I'm a military veteran-- have extensive weapons training (for a health care professional!), and was issued a sidearm to protect my patients in certain military environments.

I've also had a gun pulled on me twice in my career while caring for patients-- once in a civilian ICU, and another time in a military ER.

I have a conceal carry permit now, but seldom choose to carry. I'm a pretty good marksman. If I was volunteering in a classroom, and had kids in the corner barricaded, and an active shooter got in, I'd definitely feel comfortable shooting him/ her. I hope I wouldn't miss because my hands were shaking, but no one is 100%. Even cops are only about 40-50%.

If I were in a classroom and an active shooter gained entry, we're probably going to be dead whether I was carrying or not, shooting or not. There is no "talking down" an active shooter. So I'd rather have the option to shoot the shooter and go down fighting, and maybe save some kids. That's my opinion.

 

[southernmimi]

BBM. Why not? Certainly teachers, and others in "helping professions" like health care professionals, social workers, etc CAN be trained to be expert marksmen, if they have the desire and ability.

I prefer that our teachers do what they were hired to do and that is teach. I was a social worker before retirement, and I can assure you I wouldn't have wanted to be trained to shoot nor carry a weapon. My son is an ER physician who is trained to heal and mend...not kill. Why can't we hire professional marksmen to patrol wherever there is a need and not expect professionals to take care of shooters? Any mass murderer has a significant mental illness and that is the starting point. No one will ever be able to control who does and who does not acquire a gun.

 

[MaryG12]

Placing retired LE and veterans at schools for security is actually a great idea IMHO and there's no shortage of retired LE and veterans in the state of Florida...

 

[MaryG12]

BBM. Why not? Certainly teachers, and others in "helping professions" like health care professionals, social workers, etc CAN be trained to be expert marksmen, if they have the desire and ability.

I am very much in favor of that, too.

 

[K_Z]

I prefer that our teachers do what they were hired to do and that is teach. I was a social worker before retirement, and I can assure you I wouldn't have wanted to be trained to shoot nor carry a weapon. My son is an ER physician who is trained to heal and mend...not kill. Why can't we hire professional marksmen to patrol wherever there is a need and not expect professionals to take care of shooters? Any mass murderer has a significant mental illness and that is the starting point. No one will ever be able to control who does and who does not acquire a gun.

BBM. We can certainly do that. Picture armed guards with rifles, wearing body armor, all thru our society, in schools, at museums, plazas, malls-- like in europe during various crises, or in airports when the threat level is high.

People hate seeing armed guards-- makes them nervous. They feel like the military is "occupying" them. Various groups protest when armed police with body armor are stationed to keep the peace at protests, riots, and demonstrations, and they protest the armored vehicles, too.

When all the security is in uniforms, it identifies WHO is armed to both the good guys and the bad guys. Air marshals on airplanes look just like regular passengers. I feel much safer knowing they're on some flights. Plain clothes armed security is everywhere now-- theme parks, malls, etc. The idea of arming plain clothes security is so that the bad guys never know exactly how many armed security there are, or where they are. That keeps them off their game, IMO. That's the idea behind allowing armed adult employees in schools. The bad guys may never know that the little bitty middle aged librarian with a limp is packing, and a very good marksman.

*Not suggesting "all" teachers would have to conceal carry as a mandatory thing-- just that those who WANT to, would be trained, compensated, and allowed to.

 

[K_Z]

Placing retired LE and veterans at schools for security is actually a great idea IMHO and there's no shortage of retired LE and veterans in the state of Florida...

We have a program in our district to recruit men, specifically, to be volunteers in the schools. Most of the volunteers are women/ moms/ grandmothers, and it is felt that having more males around in responsible mentoring roles would be good for the kids, as well as provide more "muscle" in case of catastrophe situations.

 

[rsd1200]

I think that Sha and Hatfield make good points. It's proactive, and it's been done, in a number of schools for many years prior to now. Is it fool proof? Likely not, but it is better than what we have now (a buzzer push and a smile for us...).

Ban modifying semis, with "bump stocks", trigger modifications, and any other modifications, that allow semis to fire like automatics. The reason that bump stocks were allowed through is that they didn't technically alter the firearm. There was really no category for them.

Because the bump stock merely mimics automatic firing capability but does not contain any other modifications, it would not be subject to the tight restrictions on automatic weapons, the ATF ruled.


“The stock has no automatically functioning mechanical parts or springs and performs no automatic mechanical function when installed,” said a 2010 letter from the ATF signed by John R. Spencer, head of the firearms technology branch.


“Accordingly, we find that the ‘bump-stock’ is a firearm part and is not regulated as a firearm under the Gun Control Act or the National Firearms Act,” Spencer wrote.

A sound analysis from the New York Times suggests the modification allowed Paddock to fire about 90 rounds in 10 seconds, about the rate of a fully automatic weapon.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/na...easy-obtain/5bnRRxYUg6qpyz3S4D9eFJ/story.html


The current POTUS is calling for a ban on bump stocks as of now, but, that may require a re-wording of the ATF description. Hopefully they will pull that together. However, only the Vegas shooter has used Bump Stocks. I hear that they're very scarce.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

I think that Sha and Hatfield make good points. It's proactive, and it's been done, in a number of schools for many years prior to now. Is it fool proof? Likely not, but it is better than what we have now (a buzzer push and a smile for us...).

Ban modifying semis, with "bump stocks", trigger modifications, and any other modifications, that allow semis to fire like automatics. The reason that bump stocks were allowed through is that they didn't technically alter the firearm. There was really no category for them.






https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/na...easy-obtain/5bnRRxYUg6qpyz3S4D9eFJ/story.html


The current POTUS is calling for a ban on bump stocks as of now, but, that may require a re-wording of the ATF description. Hopefully they will pull that together. However, only the Vegas shooter has used Bump Stocks. I hear that they're very scarce.

Also make all states require background checks and registration for all person-to-person sales. It’s a huge loophole.

Waiting periods for all guns.

Gun purchase age lifted to 21 (with exemptions of some kind for hunting seasons) for all firearms, not just handguns.

 

[Tillicum]

This is local to me. An 8 yr old was at school all day with a gun in his backpack. We need metal detectors now.

8-year-old found with a gun in his backpack at local elementary school

Police responded to Simon Kenton Elementary School at around 3:30 p.m. Tuesday and arrested the student in question. According to police the suspect will be charged with Illegal conveyance or possession of a deadly weapon in a school safety zone.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

This is local to me. An 8 yr old was at school all day with a gun in his backpack. We need metal detectors now.

8-year-old found with a gun in his backpack at local elementary school

Police responded to Simon Kenton Elementary School at around 3:30 p.m. Tuesday and arrested the student in question. According to police the suspect will be charged with Illegal conveyance or possession of a deadly weapon in a school safety zone.

Arrest the parents, who the hell allows an 8 year old to access a gun?!

Perhaps if a few irresponsible gun owners actually served some prison time, it might make people think more carefully about where to store the damn things.

 

[Blef]

So I was born and lived most of my life in the UK. The last mass shooting we had there was in 1996 in Dunblane. The government moved quickly and tightened up private gun ownership laws.

I now live in Canada and work with people who have been brought up hunting and who feel that gun ownership is a right.

I know some Americans hold their right to bear arms tightly. But I cannot see why most people in the US NEED guns. As an outsider the rules on gun ownership seem completely useless. You can buy a gun from a gunshow no questions asked. People can build up private arsenals of assault rifles. Who NEEDS an assault rifle? Especially in suburban America? Ok, I understand that some people need guns for hunting or as part of their jobs, but I can't think of one good reason for needing an assault rifle. The teenage boys (and it predominantly boys) shooting up schools are given unnecessary access to guns, by parents who are obviously not storing their guns or ammo in a safe enough way to keep them out of the way of these children.

There have been nearly as many mass shootings than days in the year, for nearly 5 years, in America.https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2017/oct/02/america-mass-shootings-gun-violence You often read of very small children picking up a handgun and shooting either themselves or someone else accidentally.

I literally can't understand how the right to own a gun can supersede other people's right to not get shot! Maybe it's a cultural thing, but the idea of having a gun in my house horrifies me. I can't ever imagine wanting to shoot one, even at a range

 

[Tillicum]

Arrest the parents, who the hell allows an 8 year old to access a gun?!

Perhaps if a few irresponsible gun owners actually served some prison time, it might make people think more carefully about where to store the damn things.

We don't know that his parents originally had the gun. Whoever he got it from though, I agree.

 

[MaryG12]

This is local to me. An 8 yr old was at school all day with a gun in his backpack. We need metal detectors now.

8-year-old found with a gun in his backpack at local elementary school

Police responded to Simon Kenton Elementary School at around 3:30 p.m. Tuesday and arrested the student in question. According to police the suspect will be charged with Illegal conveyance or possession of a deadly weapon in a school safety zone.

We had a local threat too

Student arrested in Manatee High School threat

http://wfla.com/2018/02/20/manatee-...arged-after-note-about-shooting-threat-found/

These kids need to understand why they cannot keep doing this, copycat or not, forget about bringing guns to school whether it's to impress, brag, or whatever.

And to concentrate on the books.

 

[rsd1200]

BBM. We can certainly do that. Picture armed guards with rifles, wearing body armor, all thru our society, in schools, at museums, plazas, malls-- like in europe during various crises, or in airports when the threat level is high.

People hate seeing armed guards-- makes them nervous. They feel like the military is "occupying" them. Various groups protest when armed police with body armor are stationed to keep the peace at protests, riots, and demonstrations, and they protest the armored vehicles, too.

When all the security is in uniforms, it identifies WHO is armed to both the good guys and the bad guys. Air marshals on airplanes look just like regular passengers. I feel much safer knowing they're on some flights. Plain clothes armed security is everywhere now-- theme parks, malls, etc. The idea of arming plain clothes security is so that the bad guys never know exactly how many armed security there are, or where they are. That keeps them off their game, IMO. That's the idea behind allowing armed adult employees in schools. The bad guys may never know that the little bitty middle aged librarian with a limp is packing, and a very good marksman.

*Not suggesting "all" teachers would have to conceal carry as a mandatory thing-- just that those who WANT to, would be trained, compensated, and allowed to.

I'd rather have plain clothes, trained security, roaming the halls, as "teacher's aids" or some other sort of title, than to have armed teachers. Parkland had obvious security and he got one of them, iirc. He was a man on a mission. Locking classrooms probably helped save lives, to some degree, but the chaos after the fire alarm was pulled helped him out a lot. He thought it out. He had that luxury.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/na...easy-obtain/5bnRRxYUg6qpyz3S4D9eFJ/story.html


The current POTUS is calling for a ban on bump stocks as of now, but, that may require a re-wording of the ATF description. Hopefully they will pull that together. However, only the Vegas shooter has used Bump Stocks. I hear that they're very scarce.

rbbm

Interesting. Where I live, friends ridicule bump stocks as a “novelty,” something to use for fun, and want to keep them. (Because the gun moves so much when it fires — not that sniper-like accuracy is required when your objective is injuring or killing almost 900 people in a crowd of 22,000 people.)

I looked up several sources, and you’re right. They’re not common.

Anyone only needs one if they’re going on a murderous rampage.

Why gun experts don’t support banning – or buying – ‘bump stocks’
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cs...s-don-t-support-banning-or-buying-bump-stocks

After Las Vegas mass shooting, 'bump stock' is hot at gun stores
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/05/after-vegas-shooting-bump-stock-is-hot-at-gun-stores.html

Just banning bump stocks is not NEAR ENOUGH to curb gun violence, imo.

 

[ohreally]

In The most recent shooting I believe armed personnl could of saved lives. Feis was a coach and security at the school. He died running to the danger and shielding students. If he had a gun he might of been able to stop the gunman.
Hixon was the schools athletic director and naval reservist. He was stationed in Iraq in 2007. He also ran to the danger and died protecting the students. If he had a gun he might of been able to stop the shooter and save lives.
I do worry about just allowing any school employee that has had a 12 hour class to be able to carry to carry a gun on campus. What I do agree with is just like this school many schools do have well trained (in shooting) staff that should be allowed to carry guns on capus for the protection of all.
It saddens me to think that these two hero's ran to the danger to protect thier students and died. Just maybe allowing them to carry at school may of saved them and students that died.

 

[Hatfield]

BBM. We can certainly do that. Picture armed guards with rifles, wearing body armor, all thru our society, in schools, at museums, plazas, malls-- like in europe during various crises, or in airports when the threat level is high.

People hate seeing armed guards-- makes them nervous. They feel like the military is "occupying" them. Various groups protest when armed police with body armor are stationed to keep the peace at protests, riots, and demonstrations, and they protest the armored vehicles, too.

When all the security is in uniforms, it identifies WHO is armed to both the good guys and the bad guys. Air marshals on airplanes look just like regular passengers. I feel much safer knowing they're on some flights. Plain clothes armed security is everywhere now-- theme parks, malls, etc. The idea of arming plain clothes security is so that the bad guys never know exactly how many armed security there are, or where they are. That keeps them off their game, IMO. That's the idea behind allowing armed adult employees in schools. The bad guys may never know that the little bitty middle aged librarian with a limp is packing, and a very good marksman.

*Not suggesting "all" teachers would have to conceal carry as a mandatory thing-- just that those who WANT to, would be trained, compensated, and allowed to.

JMO
I agree.
That is a common misconception that all teachers would immediately be carrying a weapon whether they are skilled or not. That is simply not true nor is anyone suggesting that. My guess is a small percentage of teachers would elect to carry and especially if there was required annual shooting training certificates that would need to be issued if one chooses to help protect themselves and the student body.

I am fine for just hired trained guards too if the school can afford the funding of that or if government pays for it.

The air marshalls on airplane flights is a good example of what I think has been a success story. It makes the bad guys wonder now who may be there to take them out if they try to pull something.

It helps a lot when the bad guys dont know who or who is not possibly carrying a weapon and it helps the funding because a school may only hire 1 armed plain clothes security guard but the next crazed student who thinks they are going to be marching into their school will not know there is only 1. They may finally be concerned enough that there could be 5 or 10 of them and that may be enough of a deterrent where they dont carry out their planned attack.

Im all for requiring any armed personnel to pass some sort of shooting test to be certified in order to even conceal carry on school grounds. This is also not hard to accomplish as there already exists many shooting classes in many states. It would just have to be fomalized to provide an annual certification certificate. It could be annual training to make sure the person is as skilled as they can be.