Gun Control Debate #1

[kaen]

Imo.. guns and the 2nd amendment arent going anywhere in this day in age, nor should they. The real issue here which is much harder to address and takes alot longer, is cultural. Mental illness no doubt plays its part, but when you have a nation like the United States, which has literally lost its cultural identity over decades of being balkanized, these things happen. Rather than focus on the common tool being used to commit the crime, we, in general, need to step outside the box the presstitutes and politicians put us in and see the bigger picture.

Also.. The term, “Assault weapon” is a red herring.. its very misleading to those who dont know or care for guns. People genuinely need to understand that for the sake of the 2nd amendment. You either have semi-automatic or automatic.

As this country continues to become more and more diverse, I fear that the word "cultural" may be seen as something you don't intend. Can you explain Balkanized and what you mean by cultural identity?

I do think that gun violence is an issue that goes beyond any cultural issue. I am a firm believer that semiautomatic weapons are not needed by regular citizens using a weapon designed for warfare is not needed in a society not at war. I have clearly heard many hear disagree but I am not yet dissuaded.

We have less and less ability to handle many societal issues today. I think it is a combination of things.

I don't feel boxed by anyone in my response/belief about guns. I know enough to be informed or find out how to get informed when there is a gap.

 

[kittythehare]

As this country continues to become more and more diverse, I fear that the word "cultural" may be seen as something you don't intend. Can you explain Balkanized and what you mean by cultural identity?

I do think that gun violence is an issue that goes beyond any cultural issue. I am a firm believer that semiautomatic weapons are not needed by regular citizens using a weapon designed for warfare is not needed in a society not at war. I have clearly heard many hear disagree but I am not yet dissuaded.

We have less and less ability to handle many societal issues today. I think it is a combination of things.

I don't feel boxed by anyone in my response/belief about guns. I know enough to be informed or find out how to get informed when there is a gap.

i found balkanized.. I had to look it up
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/balkanize

You know, it is not something that is generally known or understood outside of America..
I'm only seeing it for the past couple of years.. and that's just polarities- the tendency to think if you are not a gop person you must be a liberal and with no shades in between.. but, of course I know there are many shades and hues and colours in this vast kaleidoscope that is America..
And each state has different gun laws..
So one shade does not fit all..
I don't understand why guns should remain but I do appreciate that they can be made more safe.. with training, learning, practice and exams in proficiency..
So I have shifted a little while still wanting them banned and confiscated..
I don't really believe the people are crazier than they are in Europe.. so I'm not convinced they are necessary for protecting self, family or belongings..
Is it a thing that the cops take too long to come when called or that there are not sufficient in number?

 

[Footwarrior]

Also.. The term, “Assault weapon” is a red herring.. its very misleading to those who dont know or care for guns. People genuinely need to understand that for the sake of the 2nd amendment. You either have semi-automatic or automatic.

My semi automatic deer rifles has a 5 round internal magazine. To reload requires inserting rounds one by one. An AR-15 has a 30 round magazine that can be swapped in a couple of seconds for a full magazine. It can fire 30 rounds as fast as the user can pull the trigger and repeat it after only a short pause. The combination of large capacity easy swapped magazines and semi automatic action make these weapons especially attractive to spree killers. They can produce a sustained rate of fire that gives victims little chance to rush the shooter or escape.

The term assault weapon started out as an industry marketing term. Used to sell firearms that were basically semi automatic versions of select fire military rifles or handguns. (Select fire weapons have a switch that allows semi automatic or fully automatic fire).

The definition of assault weapon is a bit confused. California's original Assault Weapon Ban listed the banned firearms by model number. Manufacturers responded by making minor changes and releasing a new model that wasn't on the list. The second round tried to describe these weapons with a list of features. The industry modified weapons once again to get around the ban. Finally they came up with a definition that made more sense. Focusing on the combination of a center fire cartridge and large magazines that can be quickly swapped.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Imo.. guns and the 2nd amendment arent going anywhere in this day in age, nor should they. The real issue here which is much harder to address and takes alot longer, is cultural. Mental illness no doubt plays its part, but when you have a nation like the United States, which has literally lost its cultural identity over decades of being balkanized, these things happen. Rather than focus on the common tool being used to commit the crime, we, in general, need to step outside the box the presstitutes and politicians put us in and see the bigger picture.

Also.. The term, “Assault weapon” is a red herring.. its very misleading to those who dont know or care for guns. People genuinely need to understand that for the sake of the 2nd amendment. You either have semi-automatic or automatic.

It’s not a red herring. The AR-15 is the semi-automatic version of the U.S. military’s M-16 rifle, designed for jungle warfare during the Vietnam War. Add a bump stock like the Vegas shooter did and, voila!, it’s a quasi M-16.

I don’t think there’s a general confusion about that. To the contrary, imo.

Respectfully, by definition, it’s not a red herring at all.

If they aren’t designed for combat (or, as some colloquially say, “assault”), then what’s their intended purpose? Home safety? Deer hunting in a jungle?

Realistically, people don’t use an AR-15 for home protection, just like they wouldn’t load a shotgun full of buckshot to hunt quail. Some might say that’s common sense.

Some might even say calling it a red herring is a red herring. Lol /s

“Red herring is a kind of fallacy that is an irrelevant topic introduced in an argument to divert the attention of listeners or readers from the original issue. In literature, this fallacy is often used in detective or suspense novels to mislead readers or characters, or to induce them to make false conclusions.”

https://literarydevices.net/red-herring/

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Prior to his shooting spree on Valentine's Day, what felony crime did he commit?

https://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/state-gun-laws/florida/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Florida

I know your question is rhetorical, but I’ll answer anyway. [emoji6]

He had no felony convictions. He also passed the requisite mental health question on his firearm application before he purchased the AR-15.

 

[kittythehare]

I'm just leaving this here. Be wide people.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/19/...top-stories&nlid=68626860&ref=cta&login=email

Russian troll army attached themselves to the Florida Shooting immediately.

This makes me violently angry so will refrain from talking about it right now.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Inquiring minds want to know! [emoji6] A curious poster requested links. Hope these help! Thank you for asking.

Link for Colt AR-15 history: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_AR-15

What is a bump stock? Link: http://www.businessinsider.com/what-is-a-bump-fire-stock-legal-does-it-do-2017-10

Definition of “quasi”: http://www.dictionary.com/browse/quasi

It’s not a red herring. The AR-15 is the semi-automatic version of the U.S. military’s M-16 rifle, designed for jungle warfare during the Vietnam War. Add a bump stock like the Vegas shooter did and, voila!, it’s a quasi M-16.

I don’t think there’s a general confusion about that. To the contrary, imo.

Respectfully, by definition, it’s not a red herring at all.

If they aren’t designed for combat (or, as some colloquially say, “assault”), then what’s their intended purpose? Home safety? Deer hunting in a jungle?

Realistically, people don’t use an AR-15 for home protection, just like they wouldn’t load a shotgun full of buckshot to hunt quail. Some might say that’s common sense.

Some might even say calling it a red herring is a red herring. Lol /s

“Red herring is a kind of fallacy that is an irrelevant topic introduced in an argument to divert the attention of listeners or readers from the original issue. In literature, this fallacy is often used in detective or suspense novels to mislead readers or characters, or to induce them to make false conclusions.”

https://literarydevices.net/red-herring/

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

You are FAR more likely to be a victim of gun violence in Newark NJ or Camden NJ than say, Chatham NJ or Marlboro NJ. For many reasons. I think OP was just trying to say that the statistic varies greatly based on your town or city of residence. I don’t think the diabetes rates in Camden and Newark varies nearly as much from Chatham or Marlboro the way the firearm death rates do. JMO

What about pedestrian deaths, though, or heart disease. Sorry, I’m making a joke about my reply to your reply to my original post. Lol

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Bumping again, this time for, oh, posterity. Why not.

Cheers! ❤️

So, last night when I posted that this thread was going along and not melting down, it started melting down.

You know who you are.

No sarcasm

No insulting

No baiting

No telling other posters how to post or what to post

Today no more warnings. Timeout or bans will take place.

Happy posting.

Tricia

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

GUN MASSACRES
Is It Time To Bring Back The Assault Weapons Ban?

The death toll in the Parkland school shooting counts it among the deadliest gun massacres in U.S. history. It's the sixth school shooting incident already this year where students have been killed or wounded and it's the deadliest since the Sandy Hook massacre in 2012. After the Parkland shooting, it emerged that the perpetrator purchased his AR-15 assault rifle legally. That weapon and others like it were once banned under U.S. law and there are growing calls for a reintroduction of that legislation.

https://www.statista.com/chart/12943/is-it-time-to-bring-back-the-assault-weapons-ban/
View attachment 130409

That graphic is stunning. ... And to think it’s only through 2014 and doesn’t include mass shootings like Pulse, Vegas or Parkland. [emoji15]

 

[rosemadderlake]

i found balkanized.. I had to look it up
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/balkanize

You know, it is not something that is generally known or understood outside of America..
I'm only seeing it for the past couple of years.. and that's just polarities- the tendency to think if you are not a gop person you must be a liberal and with no shades in between.. but, of course I know there are many shades and hues and colours in this vast kaleidoscope that is America..
And each state has different gun laws..
So one shade does not fit all..
I don't understand why guns should remain but I do appreciate that they can be made more safe.. with training, learning, practice and exams in proficiency..
So I have shifted a little while still wanting them banned and confiscated..
I don't really believe the people are crazier than they are in Europe.. so I'm not convinced they are necessary for protecting self, family or belongings..
Is it a thing that the cops take too long to come when called or that there are not sufficient in number?

Kittythehare, I really like your posts.

This country is huge. And yes, you will find that kaleidoscope geographically, culturally, ethnically, racially, and historically. When the constitution was signed we were much smaller, much of this country was yet to be discovered. The first 100 years were brutal.

That said, I think the states laws are very important here because they reflect the different lifestyles, the different flavors, geography, way of life. For instance, Sandy Hook massacre was so shocking because in much of the northeast semiauto guns are banned, and it's a much more regulated process for handguns from licensing to carry permits. Whereas it is easy, much less regulated in Florida and much of the south. In the vast west it's not like you are going to just dial up the police who could be hours away. The ability to defend oneself is necessary.

The politization of the NRA is doing a disservice because the NRA is not the 2nd amendment, they are big business with a stranglehold over politics. The best of the NRA promotes responsible gun ownership, clubs, training, education, etc. The worst exploits political persuasion through their powerful lobby in Washington DC.

While gun control, some movement on sensible regulation will be helpful across the board, it won't address the illegal market blight of guns, or the culture of mass shooting. That's a wholly different shift this country has to come to terms with. Since when did hatred like this become so fashionable? I look at the pictures on Instagram, wannabe terrorists posing with their arsenal of weapons. We might not be crazier than other countries, but we are 1,000 times crazier with the glorification of war weapons in extremely immature civilian hands. Since when did hate become the new love? How is the young man's mind twisting self esteem with thoughts and actions of wielding mass devastation? The hero worship of death.

Our task, our work, in exchange for our freedom to bear arms has become complex. In addition to some sensible regulations that also respects the majority of law abiding citizens, I'd say we're at a point much like after 911 when the department of home land security was created. Because this is about more than guns, it about domestic terrorism and how to stop it before, I don't know, total anarchy takes over.

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

Mass Shootings Are A Bad Way To Understand Gun Violence

You could, theoretically, cut down on all these deaths with a blanket removal of guns from the U.S. entirely — something that is as politically unlikely as it is legally untenable. Barring that, though, policies aimed at reducing gun deaths will likely need to be targeted at the specific people who commit or are victimized by those incidents. And mass shootings just aren’t a good proxy for the diversity of gun violence. Policies that reduce the number of homicides among young black men — such as programs that build trust between community members, police and at-risk youth and offer people a way out of crime — probably won’t have the same effect on suicides among elderly white men. Background checks and laws aimed at preventing a young white man with a history of domestic violence from obtaining a gun and using it in a mass shooting might not prevent a similar shooting by an older white male with no criminal record.

If we focus on mass shootings as a means of understanding how to reduce the number of people killed by guns in this country, we’re likely to implement laws that don’t do what we want them to do — and miss opportunities to make changes that really work. Gun violence isn’t one problem, it’s many. And it probably won’t have a single solution, either.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/mass-shootings-are-a-bad-way-to-understand-gun-violence/

 

[Judith Sleuth]

Shirley Ledford was a 16 year old child!? Why drag her into this debate?

Exactly. I refuse to become a Shirley Ledford and allow two men to mutilate my breasts, vagina and anus with pliers. They would be shot dead or disabled before they tried.

 

[rsd1200]

Mass Shootings Are A Bad Way To Understand Gun Violence

You could, theoretically, cut down on all these deaths with a blanket removal of guns from the U.S. entirely — something that is as politically unlikely as it is legally untenable. Barring that, though, policies aimed at reducing gun deaths will likely need to be targeted at the specific people who commit or are victimized by those incidents. And mass shootings just aren’t a good proxy for the diversity of gun violence. Policies that reduce the number of homicides among young black men — such as programs that build trust between community members, police and at-risk youth and offer people a way out of crime — probably won’t have the same effect on suicides among elderly white men. Background checks and laws aimed at preventing a young white man with a history of domestic violence from obtaining a gun and using it in a mass shooting might not prevent a similar shooting by an older white male with no criminal record.

If we focus on mass shootings as a means of understanding how to reduce the number of people killed by guns in this country, we’re likely to implement laws that don’t do what we want them to do — and miss opportunities to make changes that really work. Gun violence isn’t one problem, it’s many. And it probably won’t have a single solution, either.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/mass-shootings-are-a-bad-way-to-understand-gun-violence/

BBM

I agree, and agree that it will take a proactive approach. We are different than other countries. Honestly, if they stopped making the semi automatics tomorrow, I think that we'd still have mass attacks, but it would maybe cut them down.Closing loopholes would help a lot and, making semi owners held to a higher standard, by providing proof of purchase, of a gun safe. Like auto insurers hold certain types of automobiles as higher risk to insure.


In Iceland, a country that is said to be one of the happiest on the planet, allows gun ownership, but has extremely few gun deaths. Only a select few of their LE carries firearms.
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-25201471

Here we are with another freedom issue (speech and expression), but, I do think that we need to look at gun violence in movies that are available to children (theater and televised). The ratings need to be reviewed or expanded. Children become desensitized to violence.

When I talk about violence, I'm not talking about Tom & Jerry, or the Wyl E. and the Roadrunner, but, are our kids being exposed to violence too early, in our country? For example, I watch The Walking Dead, but I'd not watch it with a six year old, and would have strong reservations about watching it with a 16 y/o. It's extremely violent. It's not that we don't know the difference, between fantasy, and real world, it's the desensitization. I don't even watch the news with a six y/o in the room (I made that mistake recently, and ended up with a distressed six y/o.). I remember when my parents used to send us from the room when certain things would come on the news (You kids go on and play now. We're watching something.).

They don't use cartoon characters, or mascots, (Joe Camel and Spud McKenzie) in cigarette and alcohol advertising any longer. So there must be a link there.

American and Dutch university researchers found that in a 20-year period, gun violence in PG-13 films has more than tripled. Since 2009, PG-13-rated movies have contained “as much or more violence as R-rated films,” they said, and in 2012, violence in PG-13 movies was higher than for R movies.

Further, “The presence of guns in films also provides youth with scripts on how to use guns,” the academics wrote, suggesting future research to investigate that particular aspect of movie violence impact.

Daniel Romer, a co-author of the study, told AFP, “We do not draw a direct causal link to the recent rise in school and other public shootings, but the rise in gun violence in films certainly coincides with those events.” The researchers cautioned that the effects of exposure to gun violence in films “should not be trivialized...

http://deadline.com/2013/11/gun-vio...-13-levels-exceed-r-rated-films-study-632179/

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

When will you sisses finally understand you don't need guns to make yourself feel better?

Literally, no one in America needs a handgun or a dozen of AR-15s to make themselves feel safe.

What if someone who had training in disarming civvies? Then you're left being the victim with your own gun you thought you'd so tough, having on your person. BAM! You're dead.

:silly:

 

[Lilibet]

When will you sisses finally understand you don't need guns to make yourself feel better?

Literally, no one in America needs a handgun or a dozen of AR-15s to make themselves feel safe.

What if someone who had training in disarming civvies? Then you're left being the victim with your own gun you thought you'd so tough, having on your person. BAM! You're dead.

I decided decades ago that I would never own a gun. It’s a personal decision my husband shares, but that we don’t argue about with others. The bottom line: Guns do not make us feel safe. We think that in a potential self-defense situation owning a gun can escalate to violence too easily. That happens even in the hands of professionals. And as you mention, your gun can end up being used against you. Guns carried by classroom teachers and in and around places of worship just don’t connect with my way of thinking at all. Our congregation locks the door when we are there and is installing cameras to monitor the parking lot. That feels safe enough.

We’ve lived in a rural “Wild West” area with gun-owning neighbors, one of whom went around shooting at people’s houses and mailboxes. LE was at least 30 minutes away. My husband and I still felt that not owning a gun was actually more of a protection than owning one because our reputation for being peaceful made us less of a perceived threat to others. We didn’t ever want to be in the position of choosing to take someone’s life. We had some scary moments, which we were able to defuse with words, thankfully. Of course, we will defend ourselves in non-lethal ways, if necessary. I’m sure this all sounds naive to many, but it’s our personal decision and feels comfortable and safe to us.
JMO, MOO, etc.

 

[Doghairrules]

Interesting. I had no idea that any of the payment processing services refused to process gun sales.

How Banks Could Control Gun Sales if Washington Won’t
https://nyti.ms/2BDEETG

 

[Ambitioned]

Shirley Ledford was a 16 year old child!? Why drag her into this debate?

Her mutilation (as well as the mutilation of many others) are a big reason I'm all for self defense personally. We see it all the time right here on WS.

It may shock some people to know that females know how to shoot and defend themselves. I am my own first line of defense.

You know who you are.

No sarcasm

No insulting

No baiting

No telling other posters how to post or what to post

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Interesting. I had no idea that any of the payment processing services refused to process gun sales.

How Banks Could Control Gun Sales if Washington Won’t
https://nyti.ms/2BDEETG

That’s interesting! Thanks for sharing the link, Doghair!

 

[Peony459]

In case you are wondering I have lost my mind.

Rather than spend hours trying to remove posts in varies discussion that discuss the gun debate I thought I would give this a try just this once.

The reason I have kept the gun control debate off Websleuths is that people will lose their minds. Sorry not trying to say I don't have faith in you. I am saying I don't have faith in some of you.

All OF WEBSLEUTHS RULES APPLY.

No name calling,
No rudeness
Mainstream media and respected journals, websites only. No crazy right or left wing sites.

This is like any other topic on Websleuths.

If someone could please make a post with the links to the demonstrations coming up that would be a good way to start.

I will be watching this thread all through the evening.

Full disclosure. In my opinion, it is obscene that we have automatic weapons available. period. However, I believe that Government will never have the courage to do the right thing and stop taking money from the NRA and start getting these weapons out of the hands of angry people. Therefore it is up to us to try and stop creating the kids who are so angry they feel killing is the only way. We keep waiting on the powers that be to do something and more and more innocents are killed. No more waiting. Let's pinpoint who these kids are and take them out of society, preferably via a mental health facility, and stop the carnage before one more AR-15 or any other assault rifle is picked up by the hands of a potential killer.

Go for it.

Tricia

Totally agree with you. Call me pessimistic, but I don't feel all the protests will change a thing unfortunately.

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