Hannah Graham: Body Recovered, 18 Oct, 2014 **Awaiting Forensic Confirmation** #4

[ksj3]

https://goo.gl/maps/B35uV

Just because I had to. Here's a map with all these "curiously coincidental" areas - Ponderosa, Wells, Anchorage Farm, Old Lynchburg, Lovingston Liberty, Cannery Loop. I'll stick it in the RAT/JM thread, too.

 

[otto]

Someone posted this link earlier - the grandparents of the man that was working the farm when Morgan was found:

http://wtvr.com/2014/10/21/property...in-hannah-graham-search-called-teardrop-hill/

Is that the property in question, or a property just North of the property associated with Hannah's remains? The houses in the photos don't look like the houses in the maps ... the footprint doesn't line up.

 

[Biggles]

If Morgan was ID'd using dental records I can see JM removing HG's teeth. I honestly think that's a stretch but who can really say. He's such a mixed bag of deceit and carelessness I'm having a tough time getting a handle on what I think he'd do or not do.

I'm still not sure if her teeth would fall out on their own by now...?

Regarding the last point: incisors can and do fall out quite quickly due to the shape of their roots, which are typically oblong or conical and have nothing to hold them in place in the maxilla or mandible once sufficient decay has occurred. Canine teeth fall out quickly as well for the same reason, although they typically have more substantial roots, and they can sometimes be loosely held in place either by alveolar bone or the placement of the neighboring bicuspid (or both). But once you begin to work back to the bicuspids and the molars, the matrix of the exposed teeth together with the branching root structures makes it quite a bit harder for these teeth to fall out, even if decomposition is total. (It can still happen, but it's very rare and usually only seen in the case of a person who has advanced dental disease or extremely atypical root structures.) Some molars, especially third molars or wisdom teeth, lack branching roots and can be dislodged, but it typically takes some physical action for this to happen as they are often held in place by the placement of the second molars and the distal alveolar bone structure.

As to the first point: I also think total removal of her teeth is a stretch, as it would be an incredibly gruesome task, even if we're talking about a person who had been deceased for a period of time. It would be less of a stretch to imagine JM attempting to destroy her dentition to the point that it would be difficult or impossible for a dental surgeon to properly compare it with films. But without getting graphic, there is also another way to prevent identification via dentition - one that is faster, easier, and more common in cases where murderers wish to delay identification of a body - but since a skull was apparently found, we know he didn't resort to this method.

 

[ksj3]

I shudder to even suggest this, but knowing how badly the Fairfax rape victim was beaten, is it far fetched to think he may have beaten Hannah so badly that x-rays alone could no longer be compared to the skull remains?

Not according to the description given by the person who found her. He indicated bones were intact and not crushed or broken.

 

[TheBunk]

Yeah, I was confused by those pictures as well. I don't recall seeing that house before.

 

[mirv22]

Someone posted this link earlier - the grandparents of the man that was working the farm when Morgan was found:

http://wtvr.com/2014/10/21/property...in-hannah-graham-search-called-teardrop-hill/

Is that the property in question, or a property just North of the property associated with Hannah's remains? The houses in the photos don't look like the houses in the maps ... the footprint doesn't line up.

At is the property next door, to the north as you said. Not sure why they are showing pics of that house.

 

[otto]

Ugh, well, I would still argue that it's unusual, but I concede that it's not without precedent. Still, it seems like it would take a while. I hope they weren't removed, in any case.

I agree that it's unusual, but murderers will do all sorts of things to get away with it. Any kind of tool would do the job. Even if they weren't removed, but simply damaged, it might be difficult to use dental records. It's also possible that her body was up the hill a short distance, and that her remains tumbled down the creek bed with the recent heavy rains. That might also have damaged her teeth. It's hard to say ... but news has been promised soon, so hopefully the delay is related to leveraging Jesse rather than damage to her skull.

I just remembered another case where teeth were "avulsed". Jason Young (NC) is convicted of murdering his wife. She was beaten in the head so badly that her teeth were "avulsed" ... knocked flying out of her mouth.

 

[Concerned Mama]

Someone posted this link earlier - the grandparents of the man that was working the farm when Morgan was found:

http://wtvr.com/2014/10/21/property...in-hannah-graham-search-called-teardrop-hill/

Is that the property in question, or a property just North of the property associated with Hannah's remains? The houses in the photos don't look like the houses in the maps ... the footprint doesn't line up.

agreed! Even if that back addition were removed, it doesn't look like the house built into a hill with a walk-out basement. It went through quite a makeover, including the grading of the land, if it is the same place.

 

[cville_bob]

I'm pretty sure that if you've passed the state bar exam, you can practice law in any jurisdiction in that state. I'm thinking Camblos doesn't want to represent Matthew in Fairfax due to 1. Matthew isn't going to be able to afford to pay him for a lengthy trial and 2. Fairfax isn't a convenient location - it would disrupt any other cases that Camblos has locally and that wouldn't be fair to those clients. Unless another legal fund has been set up for Matthew, I predict court appointed attorneys in his future.

Given that Mr Camblos lost the election a few years ago to the current Commonwealth Attorney, I wonder if Mr Camblos initially agreed to take the case early on when it appeared that a local boy, "gentle giant" was perhaps being blamed and harassed by the police, in the hopes of "tweaking the nose" and/or embarrassing the current CA. And now that more and more damning information is coming to light about JM I wonder whether he's regretting his decision.

Does anyone know whether it's possible for an attorney to cut a client loose? If so under what circumstances?

 

[leah]

This is so OT but some things stand out to me that may not to others,

Wonder why whoever put those outside lights up hung them upside down? Wonder if they even know they are upside down?


I feel sorry for JM Mom.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

They are definitely upside down. I feel sorry for his mom and family, to even imagine you have a child like that.

 

[Skigirl]

Not according to the description given by the person who found her. He indicated bones were intact and not crushed or broken.

I often wonder if crushing/breaking bones is really part of the JM MO, or if MH's bones were crushed/broken because she was dumped in a field before harvest and a harvester or tractor (or multiples) ran over her before she was discovered. When crops are being harvested, there is a lot of tall plant material around you and then the ground is covered with vegetation, so you don't really see it. I can't help but wonder if what we've heard is MH's parents' interpretation of the autopsy report about the state of the bones, and if they made a logical (but incorrect) inference.

 

[teeandcee]

I seriously doubt the SAR LEO got close enough to see as much detail as some people think. Someone with more knowledge can correct me but I'd think protocol would dictate calling in the discovery immediately and then staying a decent distance away from the body to keep from contaminating the crime scene. I'd read more into the LEO's account if he was a forensic guy.

What I meant was if JM did destroy her teeth with a hammer I doubt he'd be careful to avoid damaging the skull in a significant way that would probably be visible from a distance. Pure speculation though. I agree with you on the finding officer.

 

[Lovepink]

No press release today I guess.

 

[otto]

I often wonder if crushing/breaking bones is really part of the JM MO, or if MH's bones were crushed/broken because she was dumped in a field before harvest and a harvester or tractor (or multiples) ran over her before she was discovered. When crops are being harvested, there is a lot of tall plant material around you and then the ground is covered with vegetation, so you don't really see it. I can't help but wonder if what we've heard is MH's parents' interpretation of the autopsy report about the state of the bones, and if they made a logical (but incorrect) inference.

Morgan was not run over by a machine. She had broken ribs, as far as I have been able to learn. There might be more to the story - have to wait for a trial - but the broken ribs seem to have morphed into "multiple broken bones", "splintered bones", and "crushed bones". I wondered if Jesse punched her in the ribs to keep her quiet, and to keep her from running. I've never had a broken rib, but from what I've seen with people that have had broken ribs, it hurts even to laugh.

 

[Doghairrules]

He must be feeling claustrophobic. Tight space for a man of his height and girth.

Couldn't happen to a "nicer" guy! (Sorry - couldn't resist.)

 

[bessie]

Drop the religious discussion. Completely.

Thanks.

 

[Concerned Mama]

BBM. Yes, I speculated about this earlier today. If Morgan was ID'd using dental records I can see JM removing HG's teeth. I honestly think that's a stretch but who can really say. He's such a mixed bag of deceit and carelessness I'm having a tough time getting a handle on what I think he'd do or not do.

I'm still not sure if her teeth would fall out on their own by now...?

But didn't it take several days for Morgan to be ID'd, too? Or at least several days before it was released to the press?

I'll have to go back and check, but honestly, even though it seems like it is taking forever to us here at WS, I don't think it has actually been that long.

 

[Nosy]

The interview with the person who was across from JM in holding said that JM did a lot of pacing. I think he's nervous. He may also be foolish.
.

Pacing? Like a caged wild animal?

 

[carbuff]

I once read that DNA testing in a criminal case can take around 60 hours. Assuming also that this case was bumped up in priority. If they had any doubt at all, I don't believe they would have called off the search. IMO, LE gathered enough evidence at the scene and are now awaiting DNA results so they can add murder to the existing charges.

I thought in the press conference they specifically said Hannah's case was not going to be given priority. If that's the case, depending on how many other cases the medical examiner has to deal with, most of the delay might simply be waiting for the ME.

 

[IzzyBlanche]

I've been thinking and it strikes me that if I had spent hours of my time volunteering to help with the searches, I'd be pretty darned angry if LE never confirms publicly that the remains are or are not Hannah's. Even if I wasn't the one to find her. The community pulled together to search and if not for all of those volunteers, LE would have had a much bigger job searching than they did. They deserve to know whether their efforts helped yield fruit.

MOO of course.