Hannah Graham: Remains Identified

[ILOKAL]

I hope. But the car is awfully small for JM to have done anything there. But, yes, her clothes, with maybe important DNA would be good. LE isn't saying. If it's just evidence that Hannah was in the car, IMO, it's a step in the right direction, but not enough. It's pretty much a foregone conclusion that she went into the car with him. With her hair, DNA in the car, it nails that, so that the whole idea that he walked to the street and bid her adieu on the spot is out the window. But so what if he gave her a ride? Without some more evidence, it is possible he just dropped her off where she requested, and mayb got picked up by someone else thereafter. I don't believe it for a second, but it's could have happened. No proof beyond getting into the car? I don't think that's good enough. If he drove her 7 miles to some abandoned place, no reasonable person is going believe she wanted a ride to there, and that he just dropped her off there alive and well. But JM has to be placed there or there has to be some proof he did something harmful to Hannah. THat's what the evidence has to show. NOt just that he was with her, that he gave her a ride.

Thank you for pointing that out. Invariably, when I see references to DNA as evidence, it is referred to as direct evidence. I have always believed, as you have stated, that DNA is indeed circumstantial evidence. Yes, it is STRONG circumstantial evidence (much circumstantial evidence is actually stronger than some direct evidence), but circumstantial none the less and doesn't stand alone. IMO

 

[ILOKAL]

What is this? I couldn't get the page to load, even after eliminating the ttp typo. Thanks.

Try readthehook.com

 

[Ollie]

This is on WS JLM and the Fairfax victim 2005 site #22 ;an article on what the Fairfax victim went through;beaten bloody and strangled until she passed out.Sorry I'm not good at copy and paste.

 

[FindHG]

Wolf Blitzer just had Barefoot on the Situ. Rm. a few minutes ago. Worth seeing if you get CNN. Apparently the perp had been reported to have been looking forward to a road trip to Fairfax, but it's going to be video linked (not skyped) court phone line to the jail where he sits... missed the second half of it if anyone catches it, please post it. Thank you in advance.

 

[bestill]

I DID read that the smaller cottage on the property had recently been rented. Hmmm, who WAS that recent renter? A poker pal?

BBM - Please explain.

 

[jamicat]

Thank you for pointing that out. Invariably, when I see references to DNA as evidence, it is referred to as direct evidence. I have always believed, as you have stated, that DNA is indeed circumstantial evidence. Yes, it is STRONG circumstantial evidence (much circumstantial evidence is actually stronger than some direct evidence), but circumstantial none the less and doesn't stand alone. IMO

DNA evidence could be a simple as a hair. Could have found Hannah's hair in JM's car. JM's hair near Hannah, on her pants. Maybe saliva. Depending on what and where , the evidence has meaning or not. Finding a dead woman's hair on suspect's clothing when you know they were together, isn't going to mean anything. Even blood and semen alone isn't going to make a case. So what if JM had some semen in his car, on his clothes?

The Fairfax rape case is the strongest of the JM involved in that circumstantial evidence and the DNA evidence puts together an ironclad case, something attorneys have noted. A lot of the push to find Hannah was in hopes that she would harbor some strong evidence to get JM locked up for good or the DP. I am hoping that LE found enough in the car, the apartment, on Hannah, on the property to get a very tight case together. I don't think we're going to find out until the case does go to trial LE has been sitting tight on evidence in the MH case for years with the only sneak looks we get from what her parents have revealed. I don't get the feeling that Hannah's parents are going to be as vocal. Perhaps in time they will be.

 

[ILOKAL]

Quoting more from that same Insidecville.com source: "“When I saw her that night,” Abby says, “I remember thinking, she’s really drunk. She couldn’t walk well. She was slouched into him, leaning against him, like she was having difficulty standing up. He was talking to her, and his right arm was around her, not over her shoulder, not at the waist, but around her back and holding her right arm. He was holding her close, like he was almost holding her up. They walked away together up the street towards the Mall.”

That was about 1:45am on Saturday, September 13. That was the last time anyone remembers seeing Hannah Graham.

BBM/ this is the same woman we saw earlier walking and running without any support and many thinking she wasn't moving like someone was at all inebriated. One beer or one one drink would do that so quickly? I don't think so. And why would JM, so impulsive, so hot to trot, stop by Tempo and spend the money for two drinks when he has her right there, all willing to go for a ride with him? I think the drink, which I've no doubt she glady took, as I've said often a cold beer would have so welcome after that walk, the frustration, dehydration from earlier drinking, was spiked. I'll bet he could barely get her to the car and it was easy dealing from that point on.

What I just don't get is that she would have been so out, he could have just dropped her off near where she wanted to go afterwards, instead of killing her She'd likely have awakened with little memory, and maybe not sought out what happened. She knew she drank too much that night. She knew she got lost. IT might have ended right there. But he had to kill her.

I still think Abby's description of Hannah and JLM could very well mean he used a stun gun.

 

[klily444]

Wolf Blitzer just had Barefoot on the Situ. Rm. a few minutes ago. Worth seeing if you get CNN. Apparently the perp had been reported to have been looking forward to a road trip to Fairfax, but it's going to be video linked (not skyped) court phone line to the jail where he sits... missed the second half of it if anyone catches it, please post it. Thank you in advance.

I can't access CNN, so just curious....why was he looking forward to it?

 

[skibaboo]

ttp://www.readthehook.com/67132/mor...ope-fresh-fear

http://www.readthehook.com/67132/morgans-killer-fairfax-case-connection-offers-hope-fresh-fear

This?

 

[ponyponyfan]

I still think Abby's description of Hannah and JLM could very well mean he used a stun gun.

date rape drugs often have the same effect -- and they're much easier to use in public than a stun gun, respectfully.

 

[ILOKAL]

BBM - Please explain.

That's my quote, not ksj3's, so I'll reply. A new member posted this morning that her husband played poker with JLM four days after Hannah disappeared and he seemed perfectly normal at the time.

 

[SteveP]

JM could have easily carried Hannah, but the fact of the matter is that it's easier to drag them, IMO. I could not have carried Hannah, for instance. She's taller and heavier than I am by quite a bit. But I could drag her fairly easily. Could even drag JM, for that matter, though not easily. I don't think the terrain in a yard is that problematic for dragging.

My guess is that Hannah was drugged into daze, given what the checker at Tempo described about her condition just before she left the mall. JM probably helped her out of the car and guided her in walk to whereve he wanted to abuse her, and then just dragged the body by the feet to the dry creek. Easier than bending and lifting a prone body from the ground and cleaner. I doubt if he cared of the evidence being stirred up while dragging. I'm sure that is what LE was searching for, seeking in that yard. Hopefully JM left some evidence that he was right here with Hannah, because that would likely clinch a conviction. But it's been a while since he left here, the carrion birds have picked a lot of Hannah's body to a skeleton, and it's rained as well. How much DNA evidence could be left there for LE to find placing JM at the spot?

Just to weigh in on this drag vs carry thing, it may be as simple as a male vs female perspective. It would be far easier for the average sized male to carry a heavy load than it would the average sized female. That is in no way sexist, it is fact. Men tend to be physically stronger. I am nowhere near the size of JLM, but I am reasonably sure I could carry someone the weight of Hannah over my shoulder and get where I wanted to go in a fraction of the time it would take me to drag that same weight. And yes, I have lifted dead weight. I have a brother with Alzheimers and wheelchair bound, and sometimes, if he decides not to help, lifting and moving him is like lifting dead weight. It would not be terribly difficult for someone the size of JLM, imo.

 

[Foxfire]

Originally Posted by Charlie Chan View Post

Yes, the homeowner WAS silenced, but we don't know WHO silenced her because she never said. Some merely assume it was LE. Me? I think it might have been her attorney!

Quote Originally Posted by ILOKAL View Post

Very true.....I did "assume" LE but you are quite right about the possibility of it being an attorney!

Entire quote originally posted by foxfire:
Imo, Charlie Chan and ILOKAL, it was ACPD/LE that advised the vacant property owner/s as well as others to remain silent; refuse media interviews. Likely due to the unexplained lapse of time from when the buzzard's tip was called in by the aware citizen and when HG's remains were eventually located 13 days later. This critical tip was obviously ignored and never followed up on by LE.. The tipster, although likely advised to remain silent, was concerned that the property had not yet been adequately searched and reached out to media in frustration... jmo

http://insidecville.com/blog/exclusi...nah-was-found/
EXCLUSIVE: WHERE HANNAH WAS FOUND
POSTED ON OCT 19, 2014
<sniped & BBM>

Another source with whom I have spoken just this morning, confirms that on Sunday October 5, a long-time resident of Albemarle County drove by this residence and noticed an unusual flurry of buzzards behind the home.
Earlier the following morning, Monday October 6, this same man stopped his car at this residence and looked around. The buzzards had gone. This man knew the home to be a rental that was not currently lived in.
He walked the property, but only briefly since he felt odd that he was trespassing. He got back in his car and left.
Later that same morning, at exactly 9:45am October 6, he called the tip line, reported the address&#8212; 3193 Old Lynchburg Road&#8212; and said he&#8217;d noticed the buzzards. He also reported that he was concerned the property had not yet been adequately searched since the home was not currently lived in.

Albemarle County Tax Records list the property owner as Phyllis Campbell, who is noted as residing just a few miles to the south on Plank Road.
I called her home this morning. When I informed the woman who answered that I was a reporter, calling to ask about 3193 Old Lynchburg Road, she kindly replied, &#8220;We were told not to talk to the media about this.&#8221;
&#8220;Were you asked not to do this by the Albemarle County Police?&#8221; I asked.
&#8220;I&#8217;m not allowed to say,&#8221; she replied.
&#8220;Is this because it&#8217;s where they found the remains of the missing girl?&#8221;
&#8220;I&#8217;m really not supposed to say,&#8221; she answered. &#8220;We&#8217;re not allowed to talk about it.&#8221; I thanked her for her time and said goodbye.

The above quote (1st one) looks like it's what "I" said when in fact it's in response to my post that stated it might have been her attorney who advised her not to answer questions.

In regard to Coy Barefoot's article/interview with Mr. Pugh, who saw the black vultures at the property, the dates that he saw them keeps changing. This article clearly says he saw them On October 5th, returned on October 6th, saw no vultures, and called in his tip at precisely 9:45 AM that day. He has since given other interviews. In one he said he saw the buzzards on the 5th and called in the tip that day. Another of his accounts says he saw them on the 5th AND 6th and then called in the tip. And THEN, in his most recent interview, said he saw the black vultures on September 30th and called in the tip that same day.

He is a landscaper who must keep an appointment calendar which should saw exactly which days he drove down OLR, I would think. He seems like a sharp enough fellow. Why there are so MANY inconsistencies in his story, I haven't a clue!

EDA: sorry, the first quote I am referring to doesn't appear. You would need to click on charliechan to read it.

Prolly just bad reporting, ILOKAL,..it happens. The aware citizen/landscaper/buzzard tipster would have no reason to lie, imo..

 

[4MYGUYS]

Just to weigh in on this drag vs carry thing, it may be as simple as a male vs female perspective. It would be far easier for the average sized male to carry a heavy load than it would the average sized female. That is in no way sexist, it is fact. Men tend to be physically stronger. I am nowhere near the size of JLM, but I am reasonably sure I could carry someone the weight of Hannah over my shoulder and get where I wanted to go in a fraction of the time it would take me to drag that same weight. And yes, I have lifted dead weight. I have a brother with Alzheimers and wheelchair bound, and sometimes, if he decides not to help, lifting and moving him is like lifting dead weight. It would not be terribly difficult for someone the size of JLM, imo.

JM clearly demonstrated the very same night that he could easily pick up a woman & throw her over his shoulder, two in fact. He carried his Fairfax victim.
He was an experienced wrestler, and lifting 140# would be very easy.
I think he drove up behind the house where Hannah's body was found, and any traces of his tracks were probably obliterated by the rains and the landscaper's trucks, but hopefully there might be evidence behind the house beyond the normal drive, especially with the odd spare.
I am hoping that some of her articles of clothing were found in his car. That would do it, I would think.

 

[jamicat]

Just to weigh in on this drag vs carry thing, it may be as simple as a male vs female perspective. It would be far easier for the average sized male to carry a heavy load than it would the average sized female. That is in no way sexist, it is fact. Men tend to be physically stronger. I am nowhere near the size of JLM, but I am reasonably sure I could carry someone the weight of Hannah over my shoulder and get where I wanted to go in a fraction of the time it would take me to drag that same weight. And yes, I have lifted dead weight. I have a brother with Alzheimers and wheelchair bound, and sometimes, if he decides not to help, lifting and moving him is like lifting dead weight. It would not be terribly difficult for someone the size of JLM, imo.

In the case of Hannah, maybe he did carry her, as she seemed to be out of it when she left the mall area. He would have to get her out of the front seat of the car, and IMO if she could still walk with assistance, that might have been the way to go. If he wanted to move her when she was lying flat on the ground, I would think just grabbing her feet and dragging her would be easier than throwing her over the shoulder, not to mention, cleaner in terms of getting on ones person.

For MH, who might have been fighting, not so out of it, I don't know whether throwing her over ones shoulder when the load is fighting you is better than just dragging by the feet after a few blows to knock her down. Again, less contact with any blood or whatever that way. Of course, Hannah could also have had an adrenaline rush, and put up a fight too, and had to be subdued physically. (I hope not. I hope she went easily and unaware). A fighting load on your back can bite and cause other damages even to someone stronger, especially when fighting for one's life. Now by the time they are corpses, it might not make any difference, but even then, I would think it's messier on one's person to carry than to drag.

 

[SteveP]

I believe Foxfire brought up earlier that JM was traveling on a spare tire and that would be easy to see in tire imprints at the sight. I thought that was an excellent observation.

If the spare tire wasn't any better than that tire on the front driver's side, I'm not sure there is any tread to be found. He was damn lucky he didn't have a blowout on his way out there. Too bad he didn't. JMO

ETA...maybe we will get lucky and pieces of the tires fell off and were left in the driveway and yard of 3193.

 

[Priester]

IMHO, he helped her gently into the front seat of his car and then suddenly punched her hard in the face.
Mission accomplished.

 

[ILOKAL]

Prolly just bad reporting, ILOKAL,..it happens. The aware citizen/landscaper/buzzard tipster would have no reason to lie, imo..

First of all, I have to ask, why does my post at the beginning of your thread show it was originally posted by Charlie Chan and his original post shows it was posted by me? I am the one who suggested it was the attorney. I think if posts are going to be copied and pasted, they need to accurately reflect who posted what. Down the road I don't want to be credited with having posted something I never did post. Regarding these same two posts, someone else originally copied and pasted them incorrectly. I hope whoever has mis-posted them the first time as well as any subsequent ones will kindly take the time to make the correction.

Now, as far as poor reporting, that's not the answer in two of the cases as I actually "heard" and "saw" on videos two of Mr. Pugh's interviews, each with the contradicting (September 30th vs. October 5/6th) dates. Maybe it's just me, but I think it's a valid question that needs to be answered.

 

[dove28]

IMHO, he helped her gently into the front seat of his car and then suddenly punched her hard in the face.
Mission accomplished.

hmm, maybe. I still think she was in the trunk at some point in time. would also provide a lot more damning evidence for LJ and make sense with his abduction charges so soon after she disappeared

 

[Jmoose]

I don't know if they do, but even if they did, I wouldn't think if she moved here as a child, they would have taken a child's prints.

I am speculating; no need to get testy (lol). Are we not on the same side?