Hannah Graham: The Search - #3

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um, the surveillance footage and eyewitness accounts puts him as the last person seen with her...

Unless there is an eyewitness who actually saw JM do something with/to her, or he confesses, how does anyone know if he was the last person who was with her? Something happened AFTER they were seen together, and no one seems to know what that was and who else she could have been with when they left Tempo. I hate to see the possibilities of someone else being involved eliminated.
 
Something happened AFTER they were seen together, and no one seems to know what that was and who else she could have been with when they left Tempo. I hate to see the possibilities of someone else being involved eliminated.

I understand your concern, and it's valid, but I think JM's actions have told us that, even if someone else is involved, he's involved too. You don't just flee to Texas and then sit in jail for two weeks, still refusing to talk to LE when you didn't do anything and there is a girl's life on the line or a potential killer on the loose. Unless, perhaps, you've been threatened. JMO.

EDIT: Along those lines, if JM has told his attorney anything that would indicate Hannah could be alive, is that not information he would have to provide to LE?
 
Sorry, did I do something wrong? Should I remove that post?

No! Do not remove your post. It is quite plausible, IMO.

This morning I was reading an article where Gil Harrington stated that they know the cause of Morgan's death--but have been asked not to release it publicly.

I have wondered, especially after reading many of Gil's writings on her blog--was Morgan hunted? Even Jane Vance's painting and poem that was done as a tribute to Morgan, is entitled The Hunted.

I have wondered if perhaps Morgan was kept nearby and tried to escape. If so, JM may well have hunted her down. Since Morgan's remains were mostly skeletonized, I can only think of one certain way they could determine the cause of death--a gunshot. I dunno. JMO.

Some people say the hyoid bone in the neck can show strangulation--but sometimes by the age of 20, as MH was at the time of her murder, this bone has not completely developed.

I think your post is insightful and it is certainly a possibility!

http://www.roanoke.com/news/crime/r...cle_86e9e9da-4d9f-54ff-9f2c-e8ffa88c9712.html


http://www.roanoke.com/arts_and_ent...cle_9280c428-fb8b-50cf-a3b6-8d733477a35e.html[/B]
 
So, everyone is convinced JM killed and disposed of HG's body in the vast mountainous terrain of Albemarle County, because it is assumed he also killed MH and that's what he did with her body.

What if......JM isn't the perpetrator, and her body was put in a dumpster by a person with their own M.O.?

I would say, based on the eye witnesses at Tempo, the camera evidence, the evidence found in the car that then led to judge granting a search warrant for his apartment, his resemblance to sketch of rapist, some (we know not yet exactly what) forensic evidence linking him to MH, AND his fleeing to Texas - that the chances of this being true are less than .0001% - but that's jmho!
 
um, the surveillance footage and eyewitness accounts puts him as the last person seen with her...

JLM has a consistent behavior pattern or MO over time with multiple sexual assault offenses to which he is tied by multiple types of forensic evidence. There is sufficient forensic evidence that ties him to Hannah Graham's disappearance that compelled one or more judges to issue warrants.

No way he isn't tied to Hannah Graham's abduction.
 
Back to the "hidey hole" concept...

"A staffer at the Trading Post, a convenience store on Monacan Trail Road less than two miles from where Harrington’s remains were found at Anchorage Farm, said patrons had seen Matthew in the store after Graham disappeared. The store’s owner could not confirm whether Matthew had been sighted in the store recently."

I wonder what he bought? And should we be checking around Anchorage Farm for the hiding spot?

http://www.dailyprogress.com/news/p...cle_583710e8-484e-11e4-b26d-0017a43b2370.html

This, plus the sighting of a truck with the name "Carr Excavating" spotted by a sleuther really makes me think she may be buried.
If this is the case, how would searchers find her? Recently moved soil?

Does anyone know if that Carr Excavating sighting was called into the tip line?
 
No! Do not remove your post. It is quite plausible, IMO.

This morning I was reading an article where Gil Harrington stated that they know the cause of Morgan's death--but have been asked not to release it publicly.

I have wondered, especially after reading many of Gil's writings on her blog--was Morgan hunted? Even Jane Vance's painting and poem that was done as a tribute to Morgan, is entitled The Hunted.

I have wondered if perhaps Morgan was kept nearby and tried to escape. If so, JM may well have hunted her down. Since Morgan's remains were mostly skeletonized, I can only think of one certain way they could determine the cause of death--a gunshot. I dunno. JMO.

Some people say the hyoid bone in the neck can show strangulation--but sometimes by the age of 20, as MH was at the time of her murder, this bone has not completely developed.

I think your post is insightful and it is certainly a possibility!

http://www.roanoke.com/news/crime/r...cle_86e9e9da-4d9f-54ff-9f2c-e8ffa88c9712.html


http://www.roanoke.com/arts_and_ent...cle_9280c428-fb8b-50cf-a3b6-8d733477a35e.html[/B]

According to the FBI Serial Killer study, strangulation is the most common cause of death. http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/201...ses/serial-murder-pathways-for-investigations

The motive is over 80% likely to be sexual.
 
Unless there is an eyewitness who actually saw JM do something with/to her, or he confesses, how does anyone know if he was the last person who was with her? Something happened AFTER they were seen together, and no one seems to know what that was and who else she could have been with when they left Tempo. I hate to see the possibilities of someone else being involved eliminated.

LE finds her and processes her for physical evidence. That's how they know. It's imperative that they find her.

And of course that processing can rule suspects in OR out.

If it isn't JM, we have essentially the same circumstance that existed with MH, like she just stepped right off the edge of the earth. Poof. Up in smoke.
 
It's been fabulous talking with you all this morning. Real life calls. I'll catch up later today. Thanks for the brainstorming - maybe we've stirred ourselves up enough that someone among us will have that blinding, brilliant flash that will help bring Hannah home. Thank you.
 
I think that is probably true. It could even be true that he cares a lot more for his dog than he does for most people.

I don't know if he's involved in dog fighting, but my answer was that there is dog fighting in the area. Va Tech is just over the mountain.


Vick's kennels was in Surry, and the dogfighting ring was centered in Newport News, fairly distant from UVA, and VA Tech - I don't recall any links to dogfighting while in Blacksburg.

VA Tech is 150 miles from UVA, not just over the mountain.

Anyway, back to the "hidey hole" - the thing to bear in mind is what happened with the discovery and, it seems, his own police questioning, probably caused him to "adapt" - he likely had in his mind a better disposal location.

I thought from the very beginning this was the act of a serial killer - HG's disappearance was too complete - an accident or spur of the moment killer would likely have panicked, and left a lot of clues, or dumped the body in a place where it would be found. This was entirely too neat, no panic.

Likely, this means he thought about this (hiding evidence) ahead of time, didn't want to repeat his mistakes on the MH case. And if he's responsible for additional disappearances, then he really has learned. Just the cell phones tells you he's not completely stupid or reckless, he's thought the details through.

My guess is an abandoned well - but whatever it is, I think, as someone suggested, he probably tipped that location somewhere along the line to someone, in some subtle way, they just don't know it.

Everyone who's ever spent time with JM - including his family - need to search their memories for that clue. Hypnosis, meditation, even dreams may provide the clue needed.

Because it doesn't seem to me JM will ever give up his secrets.
 
Vick's kennels was in Surry, and the dogfighting ring was centered in Newport News, fairly distant from UVA...

But right next to Christopher Newport. Vick was busted in 2007. When did the ring start? JM was there in 2003. Football, dogs, cocaine...
 
LE finds her and processes her for physical evidence. That's how they know. It's imperative that they find her.

And of course that processing can rule suspects in OR out.

If it isn't JM, we have essentially the same circumstance that existed with MH, like she just stepped right off the edge of the earth. Poof. Up in smoke.

Not so much. Remember, RAT was nailed/convicted with forensic evidence that tied him to the violent abduction of Alexis Murphy. There have been so many violent abductions/rapes/murders in this area, juries do not need a body to convict. With JLM, there are more priors, more forensics, etc. than the prosecution had with RAT.

JLM is toast whether the search is successful or not.
 
I understand your concern, and it's valid, but I think JM's actions have told us that, even if someone else is involved, he's involved too. You don't just flee to Texas and then sit in jail for two weeks, still refusing to talk to LE when you didn't do anything and there is a girl's life on the line or a potential killer on the loose. Unless, perhaps, you've been threatened. JMO.

EDIT: Along those lines, if JM has told his attorney anything that would indicate Hannah could be alive, is that not information he would have to provide to LE?

Thanks, ksj3, but I try to look at things to see all possibilities, whether they're right or they're wrong, I can't make a judgement until they're addressed.

When you consider JM's first encounter with LE involved a search of his vehicle, I'm sure he saw the writing on the wall right then and there. Just assuming he is innocent of any wrong doing, place yourself in his shoes. Not saying I would handle the situation the way JM did, but I can understand what might have been going through his head, and that his actions could have been based on outright fear. I wonder whether compassion for someone you don't know being missing would override your fear of what might happen to yourself if you are accused of causing her disappearance. In that situation, maybe self preservation would take priority?

It seems to be fairly common knowledge that even if you're innocent, you should be very careful what you say to LE if questioned. Even innocent people have gotten themselves into trouble by saying too much. Given JM's past, I'm sure he has had dealings with lawyers, who probably has mentioned that to him in his other situations. I don't know that, but I would assume it. Honestly, we don't know what JM has said to LE. We're told he's not talking, but what does that mean? Maybe it means that he's not fessing up to anything, and not giving any information relevant to finding HG. Maybe he has a story, and he's sticking to it--possibly the same story gotten from his grandmother by the Daily Mail (or whichever publication did the interview). We don't know, and that makes it easy exclude anyone but JM from the pool of possible perpetrators, IMO.
 
Not so much. Remember, RAT was nailed/convicted with forensic evidence that tied him to the violent abduction of Alexis Murphy.

JLM is toast whether the search is successful or not.

They don't have forensic evidence tying JM to a violent abduction. That we know of. He might not be toast. That's why it's so important to find Hannah. Hannah can absolve him or convict him.
 
Not so much. Remember, RAT was nailed/convicted with forensic evidence that tied him to the violent abduction of Alexis Murphy. There have been so many violent abductions/rapes/murders in this area, juries do not need a body to convict.

True. But with RAT, the evidence was overwhelming. All of the evidence was found in his trailer. We don't know what evidence they have from JMs car and apt....
I feel pretty certain that he will get tried for MH enough for a life sentence...I think its obvious from how involved the Harringtons are. I was sure he was the perp from MH even before a connection was announced just from the Harringtons presence and involvement. It seemed like it amped up to be a lot more than just wanting to help a bit before it was publicly announced...

I wish we knew if JMs family members have been cooperative in helping with search area ideas.

I really think she could be buried. Can SAR dogs sniff out burial grounds successfully?
 
Since you and Appalachiagirl are locals, I will pose this question to both of you. I have mentioned edit previously but didin't seem to get a response. Last week a WS poster mentioned that JLM had posted to his FB a comment about spotsylvaniagreenways.com. I don't recall what JLM's comment was but it was pasted from his FB to this forum. I am not familiar with the area as I've only visited Virginia once, so I turn to those who are familiar with the various areas. I AM curious if we should pay attention to the fact that Jesse commented about the area? I say yes because to me it says he is either familiar with the area or has an interest in it for some reason. From what I have read here, he has always been the outdoorsy type. So I went to this site (I suggest all posters do the same) and found that it has several areas (Salamander Loop, and other trails) that have easy access and dense woods with walking trails throughout which might be the very the of area he chose. I believe the area is about 60 miles from Charlottesville and is in Frederericksburg. Guided tours of Salamander Loop are given the second Sunday of each month. Volunteers give the tours. There is a form to fill out to become a volunteer. They attend classes and then become qualified masters. Who knows, JLM might even BE a volunteer there. It just seems like an area that Jesse would have been interested in long before September 13th. If, for example, JLM didn't pre-plan his attacks he probably didn't pre-select a site, but when the time came that he needed a location, this area might have popped into his mind. There are creek beds and the Ni River Trail as well as Salamander Loop (and others).

As a local, do you feel this area would be a feasible place for LE to search. And though we have no way of knowing how JLM thinks, he "might" think leaving a body in an area that is open to the public would take any focus off of him "specifically", thinking a defense could be it could have been anyone who accessed the area.

This is my first post, but I am a long time visitor to this site.
I don’t believe JM would have traveled this far to discard one of his victims. I believe it is just too far away and it only increases the chances of getting caught.

With that being said, I live in Spotsylvania and I did visit the Ni River Trails this past Sunday (Oct. 5th) with the sole purpose of seeing and/or smelling if HG might have been discarded here.

The following link will give you a good map and satellite image of the trail area and hopefully help you visualize what I am about to describe.
http://fambe.org/trail-map-viewer/salamander-loop-mountain-bike-trail/

Upon arriving to the parking area, I did notice turkey vultures circling above the south-west corner of the trails. Seeing this I decided to walk the trail at the south-western end nearest the farm pond. The trails are surrounded by very tall trees that provide a very thick canopy over top of the trails. In fact, if you look at a satellite image of the area you can’t make out any of the trails because of the canopy.

Looking at the illustrated map at fambe.org:
The trail I started on is at the south-west corner of the “farm pond” area. It starts where the “?” is. At the “?” area, I could hear a lot of crows squawking. I believe it as either a warning squawk or they were trying to chase the buzzards away. I walked about 130 steps down to the first yellow dot. The area of the first yellow dot is where I could hear that the squawking was coming from a south-westerly angle away from the first yellow dot. So I ventured about 20 yards until I could see the sky through the trees. There I could see the group of crows. They were in the tree tops to the west. They must have seen me because the whole group flew away in a south-easterly direction. Looking at the fambe.org satellite map, I believe I was looking towards the somewhat circular clearing. Beyond the clearing would be the rock quarry. I did not venture any further because it was private property. Other than the buzzards and the crows, I did not observe any- thing unusual.

Next, I walked back towards the farm pond and took my first left and walked the trail that eventually runs along the Ni River (it’s more like a big stream about 10-15 feet wide). This trail branches off before you get to the next “?” and is not highlighted on the map. This trail runs downhill and is mildly steep as it meets up with the Ni. I did not see or smell anything unusual on this portion of the trail. I walked it to the end. At one point when I was walking along the Ni, I could hear the crunching of gravel by a vehicle driving super slow on the other side of the river. It eventually stopped but I couldn’t see anything because of the trees. I then walked back to the parking area. I did not walk the upland trail (salamander loop) because I figured if you are carrying a body, you want to go downhill towards the swampy and river areas.

Back at the parking lot, I decided to check out the 4 sided wooden structure, that is supposed to hide a dumpster. There is no dumpster there but people do dump trash there anyway. There were a couple of small bags of trash, probably from someone’s vehicle. There was an unusually large pile of empty “Newport” hard back cigarette packs. It looked to be about 15-20 packs. This caught my eye because someone mentioned that JM might smoke.

Some background information on the area:

The Ni River Trails parking area is behind a vacant building that is for lease.

The building to the south of the parking area is the Spotsylvania School Board

The quarry behind the school board is not currently operating.

I visit the area to observe wildlife and to take pictures. I have visited the area around 15-20 times since it opened. I usually visit mid morning to early afternoon and I’ve seen other people there maybe 3 times (a total of about 6 people). These trails are not well known or well visited. In fact, on my Sunday visit the trails in some sections were starting to overgrow. I have seen deputies cruise around the vacant building 2 or 3 times on my visits.

Even though these trails are not well visited, I think you’d be taking a chance parking in the parking area at night and doing something illegal. My reasoning for this is that I am sure the School Board building and the High School on the other side of route 1 is driven by at least once a night by deputies. Also, it would be a good place for cops to lay low at night to fill out reports, make phone calls, take a break, etc…. If they get a call they can always say they are checking out the School Board building.

This is my opinion. I wouldn’t risk it, but then again I’m not a serial killer either.

I hope this clears some sleuthers questions about this area.

Update: I drove by the trail’s parking area Tuesday the 7th to see if the buzzards were still flying overhead and they were not.
 
Not so much. Remember, RAT was nailed/convicted with forensic evidence that tied him to the violent abduction of Alexis Murphy. There have been so many violent abductions/rapes/murders in this area, juries do not need a body to convict. With JLM, there are more priors, more forensics, etc. than the prosecution had with RAT.

JLM is toast whether the search is successful or not.
In the AM case, there was plenty of evidence in RAT's trailer to suggest a bloody struggle took place, plus the DNA of AM was all over the place -- blood, hair, fingernail. . . .

I wouldn't be so sure the case against JLM is a slam dunk without solid evidence such as what was found in AM's case.

While it is imperative to find Hannah to bring just a tiny bit of peace to her family and friends, it is also imperative to LE to have the body if there is also an absence of a crime scene.

We're almost at the one month mark since Hannah's disappearance. I'm am astounded at how much ground has already been covered by search crews and hope that some new clue or information will be revealed to LE that will lead them to a narrower search area. To expand the radius of the search beyond eight miles starts making it look like an (even more) impossible task. :(
 
Thanks, ksj3, but I try to look at things to see all possibilities, whether they're right or they're wrong, I can't make a judgement until they're addressed.

And a lot of us here were doing just that - until the evidence started piling up on him. Rape accusation. Kicked out of school. Rape accusation. Left school as soon as it was reported. Punched a man in the face unprovoked. Injured a man in a wrestling move when he first met him. Slung women he didn't know over his shoulders and kept touching them (battery) in an intimate way when told to stop. Last one seen with Hannah. Hannah incapacitated at the time. Hasn't said a word since. Something in his car that gave LE probable cause to then search his apartment. Forensic link to MH. Taxi driver.

I agree, there is a slight possibility he's just terrified and innocent, but I think his lawyer would be working diligently on finding his alibi and getting that out to the public or at least LE and this investigation would have taken a completely different turn a couple of weeks ago at least. He had spoken with Camblos before he left for Texas. We know Camblos didn't advise him to flee.
 
They don't have forensic evidence tying JM to a violent abduction. That we know of. He might not be toast. That's why it's so important to find Hannah. Hannah can absolve him or convict him.

"That we know of." That's the key. What did they find in his orange car or his apartment? Signs of violent abductions? Kidnapping equipment? Souvenirs, videos, photos? Blood, bodily fluids or hair of Hannah, Morgan, other women?

If Hannah were alive and well, JLM might be interested in talking. However, he isn't talking, confessing or producing either a girl or a body.
 
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