Hannah Graham: The Search - #3

[Concerned Mama]

Can SAR dogs sniff out burial grounds successfully?

I will leave this question to an expert to answer, but from what I have read, the answer would be yes, as long as the body is not too far under ground.

 

[FindHG]

Again, with no reason to know or think that there is any link to these two additional cases of missing young women, based on the age, location and type, mapped along with the previous posts the pattern that results below, includes Spotslvania, where JM had shown interest on his facebook page according to WSers. None of these location are precise, it's just the result of a directions query to the general area where these young women went missing

10/18/03 Rachel Good Elkton, VA
4/21/08 Gracie MacCord Spotsylvania County

Refers to info on post #10 from the thread below

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...h-Graham-MAPS-amp-TIMELINES-**NO-DISCUSSION**

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Man...079042!1m3!2m2!1d-77.5877652!2d38.1979096!3e0

 

[ksj3]

I really think she could be buried. Can SAR dogs sniff out burial grounds successfully?

http://barksar.org/Cadaver_Dogs_A_Search_Tool_for_Locating_Human_Remains.pdf

Up to 8 feet deep, according to this. I hope they've had HDR dogs out where ever they've gone.

 

[SolVol]

http://barksar.org/Cadaver_Dogs_A_Search_Tool_for_Locating_Human_Remains.pdf

Up to 8 feet deep, according to this. I hope they've had HDR dogs out where ever they've gone.

WOW - they can find remains buried up to 35 years.

 

[themom]

http://barksar.org/Cadaver_Dogs_A_Search_Tool_for_Locating_Human_Remains.pdf

Up to 8 feet deep, according to this. I hope they've had HDR dogs out where ever they've gone.

That's great. Wow, and impressive. Never realized how amazing these dogs are...

 

[ksj3]

Update: I drove by the trail’s parking area Tuesday the 7th to see if the buzzards were still flying overhead and they were not.

Thank you for not only helping Hannah but for letting us know what you observed.

If you haven't, would you kindly copy what you've written here and put it in an email to CPDtips@charlottesville.org ? Let them decide whether or not anything you observed is relevant to the investigation.

I can see how they may well be.

 

[FindHG]

People subconsciously recognize their own kind.

Very interesting, again, thank you for thinking this through. I'm confused about whom is recognizing whom? Some people have good instincts, from experience perhaps, in how to react to the cold dead stare of evil. I can see that JM may have known when he ran into his own kind, but do you mean Hannah Graham would recognize? Can you explain?

 

[brainysthenewsexy]

I've been studying this map of JM's movements and also his possible victims and I think he put HG way beyond the range of 8 miles and away from his previous areas of crime. This map and his history shows he's not afraid of distance driving.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=zhH0NjEZuy28.kQI70Tl9nPsA

JM was at a football game in Woodstock, VA on 9/12/2014 most likely between 4-6p. That is right next door to Seven Bends State Park. My understanding is that the new state park is in the development stages and doesn't open until 2015. Maybe he scoped it out that evening? I just don't think he would have gone to the south of Charlottesville because that is where MH was found. I think he went the complete opposite direction, to the north, then west. It would have taken him maybe two hours to get there if he avoid major freeways.

I think he offered to drive HG to that party. Once he had her in his car, he asked to borrow her phone pretending his was out of battery. He proceeds to turn off her phone, then off they went. She was probably too incapacitated to know which direction they were going.

Of course, this is my own pure speculation.

 

[FindHG]

This is my first post, but I am a long time visitor to this site.
I don’t believe JM would have traveled this far to discard one of his victims. I believe it is just too far away and it only increases the chances of getting caught.

With that being said, I live in Spotsylvania and I did visit the Ni River Trails this past Sunday (Oct. 5th) with the sole purpose of seeing and/or smelling if HG might have been discarded here.

The following link will give you a good map and satellite image of the trail area and hopefully help you visualize what I am about to describe.
http://fambe.org/trail-map-viewer/salamander-loop-mountain-bike-trail/

Upon arriving to the parking area, I did notice turkey vultures circling above the south-west corner of the trails. Seeing this I decided to walk the trail at the south-western end nearest the farm pond. The trails are surrounded by very tall trees that provide a very thick canopy over top of the trails. In fact, if you look at a satellite image of the area you can’t make out any of the trails because of the canopy.

Looking at the illustrated map at fambe.org:
The trail I started on is at the south-west corner of the “farm pond” area. It starts where the “?” is. At the “?” area, I could hear a lot of crows squawking. I believe it as either a warning squawk or they were trying to chase the buzzards away. I walked about 130 steps down to the first yellow dot. The area of the first yellow dot is where I could hear that the squawking was coming from a south-westerly angle away from the first yellow dot. So I ventured about 20 yards until I could see the sky through the trees. There I could see the group of crows. They were in the tree tops to the west. They must have seen me because the whole group flew away in a south-easterly direction. Looking at the fambe.org satellite map, I believe I was looking towards the somewhat circular clearing. Beyond the clearing would be the rock quarry. I did not venture any further because it was private property. Other than the buzzards and the crows, I did not observe any- thing unusual.

Next, I walked back towards the farm pond and took my first left and walked the trail that eventually runs along the Ni River (it’s more like a big stream about 10-15 feet wide). This trail branches off before you get to the next “?” and is not highlighted on the map. This trail runs downhill and is mildly steep as it meets up with the Ni. I did not see or smell anything unusual on this portion of the trail. I walked it to the end. At one point when I was walking along the Ni, I could hear the crunching of gravel by a vehicle driving super slow on the other side of the river. It eventually stopped but I couldn’t see anything because of the trees. I then walked back to the parking area. I did not walk the upland trail (salamander loop) because I figured if you are carrying a body, you want to go downhill towards the swampy and river areas.

Back at the parking lot, I decided to check out the 4 sided wooden structure, that is supposed to hide a dumpster. There is no dumpster there but people do dump trash there anyway. There were a couple of small bags of trash, probably from someone’s vehicle. There was an unusually large pile of empty “Newport” hard back cigarette packs. It looked to be about 15-20 packs. This caught my eye because someone mentioned that JM might smoke.

Some background information on the area:

The Ni River Trails parking area is behind a vacant building that is for lease.

The building to the south of the parking area is the Spotsylvania School Board

The quarry behind the school board is not currently operating.

I visit the area to observe wildlife and to take pictures. I have visited the area around 15-20 times since it opened. I usually visit mid morning to early afternoon and I’ve seen other people there maybe 3 times (a total of about 6 people). These trails are not well known or well visited. In fact, on my Sunday visit the trails in some sections were starting to overgrow. I have seen deputies cruise around the vacant building 2 or 3 times on my visits.

Even though these trails are not well visited, I think you’d be taking a chance parking in the parking area at night and doing something illegal. My reasoning for this is that I am sure the School Board building and the High School on the other side of route 1 is driven by at least once a night by deputies. Also, it would be a good place for cops to lay low at night to fill out reports, make phone calls, take a break, etc…. If they get a call they can always say they are checking out the School Board building.

This is my opinion. I wouldn’t risk it, but then again I’m not a serial killer either.

I hope this clears some sleuthers questions about this area.

Update: I drove by the trail’s parking area Tuesday the 7th to see if the buzzards were still flying overhead and they were not.

in full, respectfully

Thank you, that's fantastic information. I hope you email and call it in. Glad you're here.

 

[Conductor71]

And a lot of us here were doing just that - until the evidence started piling up on him. Rape accusation. Kicked out of school. Rape accusation. Left school as soon as it was reported. Punched a man in the face unprovoked. Injured a man in a wrestling move when he first met him. Slung women he didn't know over his shoulders and kept touching them (battery) in an intimate way when told to stop. Last one seen with Hannah. Hannah incapacitated at the time. Hasn't said a word since. Something in his car that gave LE probable cause to then search his apartment. Forensic link to MH. Taxi driver.

I agree, there is a slight possibility he's just terrified and innocent, but I think his lawyer would be working diligently on finding his alibi and getting that out to the public or at least LE and this investigation would have taken a completely different turn a couple of weeks ago at least. He had spoken with Camblos before he left for Texas. We know Camblos didn't advise him to flee.

It does look bad, but frankly the more that is heaped on him, the more I think he might just be innocent. EVERYTHING revealed thus far implicates him! That is a little too neat and tidy for me. Let's not forget that the media works in utter cooperation with LE. I find it odd there is absolutely NOT one thing published or shared about JM that does not weaken or support LE's agenda.

There is a simple way to go forward or look for another perp. It is established that Morgan Harrington was last seen that night around 9:30 pm. She was seen alone and SAR dogs put her on Copeley Road. She injured herself (fall is speculated) and was bleeding, so seems DNA could have been found at the scene if they had gotten there earlier. No one saw her get into a cab.

Interestingly, just read that a witness swears she saw Morgan on UVA campus at 3:45 AM the morning of October 18th. Curiously, the police were not interested in this info. The Panterra shirt wore that night was found nearby splayed out on a bush a month later. I am blathering, but cannot any of this tie things up for JM if he has airtight alibis for Morgan's case at least? That seems the first line of defense. Are we to assume he does not have one? Obviously, he was driving a cab, but did he have another fare at the time or witnesses who can vouch for him being elsewhere?

Sources:

http://www.readthehook.com/88650/hes-still-here-and-other-revelations-harrington-case

http://www.readthehook.com/67960/pantera-find-shirt-15th-street-was-morgan-harringtons

 

[FindHG]

I've been studying this map of JM's movements and also his possible victims and I think he put HG way beyond the range of 8 miles and away from his previous areas of crime. This map and his history shows he's not afraid of distance driving.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=zhH0NjEZuy28.kQI70Tl9nPsA

JM was at a football game in Woodstock, VA on 9/12/2014 most likely between 4-6p. That is right next door to Seven Bends State Park. My understanding is that the new state park is in the development stages and doesn't open until 2015. Maybe he scoped it out that evening? I just don't think he would have gone to the south of Charlottesville because that is where MH was found. I think he went the complete opposite direction, to the north, then west. It would have taken him maybe two hours to get there if he avoid major freeways.

I think he offered to drive HG to that party. Once he had her in his car, he asked to borrow her phone pretending his was out of battery. He proceeds to turn off her phone, then off they went. She was probably too incapacitated to know which direction they were going.

Of course, this is my own pure speculation.

That makes a lot of sense, as you see it. If he may have chosen to and had a chance to scout the park (started coaching 8/?/14), taking Hannah Graham there would make it much easier to get to his morning meeting (12/13/14 according to press reports and the statement put out by the school). That he didn't show up for the meeting may indicate it took him longer than he expected or there's may have been a chance he had scratches, evidence of a struggle on him and that he may not have wanted on display.

 

[klily444]

I've been studying this map of JM's movements and also his possible victims and I think he put HG way beyond the range of 8 miles and away from his previous areas of crime. This map and his history shows he's not afraid of distance driving.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=zhH0NjEZuy28.kQI70Tl9nPsA

JM was at a football game in Woodstock, VA on 9/12/2014 most likely between 4-6p. That is right next door to Seven Bends State Park. My understanding is that the new state park is in the development stages and doesn't open until 2015. Maybe he scoped it out that evening? I just don't think he would have gone to the south of Charlottesville because that is where MH was found. I think he went the complete opposite direction, to the north, then west. It would have taken him maybe two hours to get there if he avoid major freeways.

I think he offered to drive HG to that party. Once he had her in his car, he asked to borrow her phone pretending his was out of battery. He proceeds to turn off her phone, then off they went. She was probably too incapacitated to know which direction they were going.

Of course, this is my own pure speculation.

BBM. That is an excellent thought regarding her phone.

My concern with the search is that JM has certainly watched a search unfold before, circa MH. He knew they would search within a somewhat close radius of where Hannah went missing. IMO, he would place her far, far away from somewhere he thought they would search. Even if just 40 miles away, wouldn't that be the safest option? And here we are, day after day, searching in her own backyard, and coming up with nothing. I was hoping the dirt on his tires would lead them in a certain direction, but so far it seems to be driven by a radius, not by any discovery or evidence, etc. During a PC yesterday, one of the reporters asked, "How is this search any different from the search for the Malaysian airliner?"

 

[Zuri]

So, everyone is convinced JM killed and disposed of HG's body in the vast mountainous terrain of Albemarle County, because it is assumed he also killed MH and that's what he did with her body.

What if......JM isn't the perpetrator, and her body was put in a dumpster by a person with their own M.O.?

If JM is NOT responsible for HG disappearance, I would hope he would speak up to clear his name. From what I have read here and the links provided, he has chosen not to talk. Unfortunately, actions speak louder than words sometimes, and his actions including refusal to talk, makes him look awfully suspicious/guilty in my mind.

I truly didn't want to believe that he could possibly do something untoward because of my experience/bias/preconceived knowledge of working with OR techs. I can't imagine any one of them being capable of such a horrific crime. IIRC, several nurses that worked with him had posted early on that he did not act like who JM appears to be.

 

[human]

I'm just wondering if my post is too far "out there," far-fetched, too imaginative and too little basis in what could be reality. Don't want to be silly about this matter with HG. I can only imagine how serious it is to her family.

It is possible. It would seem it would be far better to make it last.

Now, where could it be?

 

[MJPeony]

Sorry, missed this before. I wonder if she may be real or still around. I know of no one making a peep about having seen them on the town or together at all.

Interesting... good question. Whether the gf is legitimate or not. Tis true that I've not seen anything to back this up other than that one quote (from his g'ma right?). No friends that have been interviewed mentioned her, no photos, etc. I really hope there was no gf. For her sake.

Didn't the grandmother say they had been living together? Do we know where that was?

 

[Evie Ivy Over]

If JM is NOT responsible for HG disappearance, I would hope he would speak up to clear his name. From what I have read here and the links provided, he has chosen not to talk. Unfortunately, actions speak louder than words sometimes, and his actions including refusal to talk, makes him look awfully suspicious/guilty in my mind.

I truly didn't want to believe that he could possibly do something untoward because of my experience/bias/preconceived knowledge of working with OR techs. I can't imagine any one of them being capable of such a horrific crime. IIRC, several nurses that worked with him had posted early on that he did not act like who JM appears to be.

How do we know JM has refused to talk? As mentioned in my previous post, "refusing to talk" could mean that he hasn't said anything of substance, that he hasn't admitted guilt. Would "I had a drink with her and parted ways", be considered as "refusing to talk"? I don't know given the amount of information that is being withheld from the public. How do we know he is totally silent? How do we know if he even has the information everyone wants him to give? I'm really trying to avoid the tunnel vision Longo referred to a few weeks ago.

 

[SolVol]

"How is this search any different from the search for the Malaysian airliner?"

No. Black. Box. No means of tracking.

Except for dogs, witnesses and videos.

 

[SolVol]

I've been studying this map of JM's movements and also his possible victims and I think he put HG way beyond the range of 8 miles and away from his previous areas of crime. This map and his history shows he's not afraid of distance driving.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=zhH0NjEZuy28.kQI70Tl9nPsA

JM was at a football game in Woodstock, VA on 9/12/2014 most likely between 4-6p. That is right next door to Seven Bends State Park. My understanding is that the new state park is in the development stages and doesn't open until 2015. Maybe he scoped it out that evening? I just don't think he would have gone to the south of Charlottesville because that is where MH was found. I think he went the complete opposite direction, to the north, then west. It would have taken him maybe two hours to get there if he avoid major freeways.

I think he offered to drive HG to that party. Once he had her in his car, he asked to borrow her phone pretending his was out of battery. He proceeds to turn off her phone, then off they went. She was probably too incapacitated to know which direction they were going.

Of course, this is my own pure speculation.

PLEASE - phone the part about the new Seven Bends State park in to the tip line!!! DEDICATED TIP LINE 434-295-3851 or email - CPDtips@charlottesville.org

 

[ksj3]

How do we know JM has refused to talk? As mentioned in my previous post, "refusing to talk" could mean that he hasn't said anything of substance, that he hasn't admitted guilt. Would "I had a drink with her and parted ways", be considered as "refusing to talk"? I don't know given the amount of information that is being withheld from the public. How do we know he is totally silent? How do we know if he even has the information everyone wants him to give? I'm really trying to avoid the tunnel vision Longo referred to a few weeks ago.

Longo has stated that he has refused to talk. (I'll see if I can find a link.) No, I don't think telling LE what he or Hannah did after they parted ways/left Tempo is "not talking."

EDIT: One link here (refusing to talk to Virginia investigators while in Texas - but I give him the benefit of the doubt as he did not have his attorney present then): http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/l...-Missing-Student-Hannah-Graham-277197981.html Looking for others, more recent, since he has been back in Virginia.

Interesting note here, same link: "Certainly flight from a jurisdiction where you know police want to talk to you is a circumstance in which you can infer a consciousness of guilt," Benjamin said. "That's a standard jury instruction."

 

[Priester]

"I've been studying this map of JM's movements and also his possible victims and I think he put HG way beyond the range of 8 miles and away from his previous areas of crime. This map and his history shows he's not afraid of distance driving."
All I can say is the investigators have their work cut out for them. Thank you for this graphic reminder of LJM's territory.