Hannah Graham: The Search - #3

[razzledazzle]

Can we talk for a minute about religious-ness? Dunno, this may be particular to Baptists, or Southern Baptists, but in my mind (knowing what it's like to be raised up as Southern Baptist in the 50s) it may have more bearing on JM's actions than we've realized up to this point.

If some of these characteristics we've discussed are true, the ways in which he resembles other SKs, and then the ways that make his family think he's a "good boy," and the way he knows how to be bumbling and friendly to people, he has got to be the most conflicted, confused person who ever lived. Does he have Dissociative Identity Disorder?
I went back and looked and the Downtown Mall video again a couple days ago. He does not hesitate for an instant, once he spots HG, he finds the nearest spot he can to turn around and follow her without being so obvious that everyone on the Mall would have noticed it. It's like he has a switch that flipped, and he went from Mode 1 to Mode 2 instantly. Or maybe he was already in Mode 2, seeing as how he'd been manhandling people all evening, feeling up the women and making sure the men knew how quickly he could put them in their places. Maybe the switch flipped earlier in the day.

So he's all these different characters, imo. He's the good boy, he's a palsy fisherman, he's someone most people in the community wouldn't think twice about, and certainly wouldn't be scared of, he's just sort of there and comfy and helpful. He's also the guy who jumped out of his car and punched a guy in the face. Then he's the guy who felt bad about it almost immediately, and fell over his own feet apologizing and trying to make it right.

Ok, so how to make it right? He offered to take the guy to the hospital, right? He paid the medical bills, right? He actually did take action, or offered to take action, to make it right. Even if he was only protecting himself, there's something in his mind that realized he'd just done something he shouldn't have done, and he needed to make it right.

The question is to me: how much of this was conscience? Does he actually HAVE a conscience? Once the switch flips off again, I bet he does, but it more often than not gets overridden by his instinct for self-preservation.

How do you make it right when you've just beaten a woman to death? What does your raised-in-country-church conscience do to you then?

A rural cemetery would be an excellent place, not to DUMP a body, but to lay a body to rest.

All moo, of course.

Feedback?

Most definitely possible... I dated guy for a short while that was one smooth talker. On our first date, because we did not have mutual friends and I used to work for a retired LE who taught me plenty, I asked him straight up 1) Have you ever hit a woman? no 2) Do you do drugs? no, but I drink socially
3) Do you have a criminal record? yes, when I was 20 I was involved in a strong armed robbery and did 22 months in prison. (He was 44 at the time of our date). I said now whoa that's a red flag and was about to cut our date short. He explained that he was not the same person, was honest when I asked, blah blah.. explained the circumstances and convinced me that he had done his time and had no other offences, and it had been 22 years ago. I saw him off and on for a few months after doing a background check that backed up his story. I'm all for second chances and not very judgmental. But then there would be times that he referred to himself in the third person, he would sometimes act like a totally different person, and when questioned would say "That wasn't Mike, you know that's not me". He would refer to prison as the "bad place that the other Mike went". He even "joked" about his "other" personalities. I found that he only had one real friend, an older man that was very supportive and seemed to check up on him, and then his Mom whom he seemed to love dearly. I became concerned and slowly began to be unavailable until the relationship kind of fizzled out.

So my point is that I totally agree with you..... My very good-looking, smooth talking, protective, church going, flower sending, fill up my car with gas every Sunday, fella definitely had some undiagnosed issues.

 

[themom]

They also did say the cab was found in Albemarle County.

 

[MomnVA]

That does make sense in that the media is saying zip about this van. No location, no pic, nothing.

I think that must be the search warrant that was super sealed.

I imagine the media has someone following LE, but nothing on this van.

One report did say the cab/van was found in Albemarle Co.
"According to our affiliate in Richmond, the cab Matthew drove that night was seized by authorities from a farm in Albemarle County two weeks ago."
http://www.newsplex.com/home/headli...w-Night-Harrington-Disappeared-278722101.html

I recall the sealed search warrants were Nelson Co, not Albemarle Co.
Nelson Co is not considered "out-there" by locals at all; adjacent to Albemarle, a straight shot from 250W to 151.
I do hope they find more "voluminous" evidence in the van/cab.
My gut: he wants more space to do everything he wants to do than he can get in a vehicle.

 

[Concerned Mama]

There is not a more private setting for a serial killer to dispose of a body at night than a rural church cemetery, imo. Good Jesse was very religious, imo. There is likely a religious connection to the aftermath of his kills as indicated by the large cedar tree<not a coincidence, imo> where MH's remains were located. Religious rituals after death are common among some experienced, escalated sexual predators/serial killers, imo..

FBI-Photo Gallery
https://www.google.com/search?q=Pho...gan-harrington-killer%2Fphoto-gallery;645;429

bbm

Foxfire, would you mind explaining the cedar tree significance to me, please? It's been bugging me for nearly three hours now, trying to figure out what cedar trees would have to do with laying somebody to rest. Thanks!

 

[twbcpa89]

Just a goof, but can you see the man and his shadow there, no dreads, I think. There's a fairly big person right at the edge of the forest, by the access road, where the brown pool of water has a curving line, in the south-east corner of the quarry. He's pointed toward a pile of rocks or something. With JM's luck with camera's what are the chances that could be him? Not good, I know.

There's a clearing with a tree or something at the center to the man's right, if you zoom out a bit. It has great isolated access right off the RT60. you see that grassy line cut through trees right to the quarry.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Man...a79c95ae01!2m2!1d-78.5545165!2d37.5518299!3e0

I hope that I read this correctly, are you suggesting that JLM may be in the background of a photo on Google Maps?

This may be a repost, but if we had a listing of the common outdoor locations/state parks that JLM may have visited close to Charlottesville, we could examine the google maps photos (the pictures that people post, not street view). If JLM frequented outdoor areas it could be possible that he is in the background of one of those images.

Does anyone have anything to add here, or perhaps has a listing of the addresses such locations?

Or maybe local "sleuthers" have photos of state parks/outdoor locations that they could search, finding a JLM "photobomb" could be a huge clue IMO.

 

[Emaa]

The thing I am stuck on is that he did not seemed to have planned ti kill her, for sure, until something went against him, i.e. Hannah fighting him. The way he went about with her so publicly goes against a plan, Imo., and so for me goes against a detailed plan of disposal, other than maybe having an idea in his head that he would make another victim more difficult to find than Morgan. Jmo

I think that while his abduction and attack on Hannah may not have been planned, where he disposed of her was. IMO, when Morgan was found he thought of places he could have placed her where (he believed) she would have never been found.

Whether he planned for his next victim or simply realized his mistake after the fact, the discovery of Morgan's body taught him to be more careful and IMO not to use private property no matter how remote. I believe he dumped Hannah either on public land or if private, then one that isn't lived or worked on.

 

[themom]

Anyone hear any updates on the diver activity over the weekend? Wondering if they've found anything. (My gut tells me they won't find much in the waters.
My opinion is she's buried, but will happily rejoice if I am wrong, and something turns out ANYWHERE).

 

[jbowman55]

Ok, I'm gonna put my tin foil hat on again and ask another "out there" question.

What if the van was on Carter's Mtn, and Bonnie Santiago found it?

Still think there's a hidey-hole, and the van might well be it. Still think LE needs to process the car JM was in on Saturday 9-20 when he came to CPD, cause I think he might have moved HG after that.

Think if he had a family member's car, for ostensibly innocent purposes, since his had been seized, he wouldn't have been able to go very far or keep the car for very long.

Think LE needs to seize every piece of clothing within JM's sphere of activity during that time, and let the cadaver dogs have a go. Did CPD make a note of what he was wearing when he showed up there on 9-20?

 

[human]

Maybe tbe divers are looking for cellphone or shoes?

I bet he keeps the shoes though.

Did CM have shoes on her?

 

[sreshowtime]

Wanted to go back and clarify that the football game JM was at on Sept. 12th was played at TCS, not Massanutten Military Academy. A member here did state he was at that game.
The Sept 19th game was played @ Manssanutten. ( but I am not 100% certain it has been verified JM attended that game.)
TCS is here 38.002026, -78.518019
location per school site calendar http://www.covenantschool.org/athletics/

 

[JudyBolton]

I live in a very wooded area. My dad had cattle growing up if one were missing, the first thing he would do was look for circling buzzards. Some have mentioned that he may have thrown her into a ravine or area without burial underground. As it's been a month, does anyone know how long a body would attract birds of prey. (Sorry - I know this is a horrible thought). I just remember how difficult it was for us to locate a dead, full-grown cow (weighing 100's of lbs.) if she wandered out into deep brush/wooded area. Hope searchers are still looking up as well as down

 

[jbowman55]

I'm on a roll. Sorry if I'm being a pest.

What if JM saw the same tv show I did, where a perp buried someone he'd killed in a grave in which another person had been (properly) buried? Take out 2-3 feet of loose dirt, lay body to rest, cover back up. Done in 45 minutes, maybe? As strong and fit as JM is?

Wonder how many burials there were in country church cemeteries within 40 miles or so of C'ville in the 2-3 weeks prior to 9-20?

 

[sreshowtime]

There is not a more private setting for a serial killer to dispose of a body at night than a rural church cemetery, imo. .....

snipped for brevity

Foxfire , it is some what interesting to note that there is an old cemetery here 37.972469, -78.615534
located between Farm Vista and Red Hill Rd. approximately 1 mile south as the crow flies, from the area MH remains were located.

 

[JudyBolton]

One report did say the cab/van was found in Albemarle Co.
"According to our affiliate in Richmond, the cab Matthew drove that night was seized by authorities from a farm in Albemarle County two weeks ago."
http://www.newsplex.com/home/headli...w-Night-Harrington-Disappeared-278722101.html

I recall the sealed search warrants were Nelson Co, not Albemarle Co.
Nelson Co is not considered "out-there" by locals at all; adjacent to Albemarle, a straight shot from 250W to 151.
I do hope they find more "voluminous" evidence in the van/cab.
My gut: he wants more space to do everything he wants to do than he can get in a vehicle.

So are they implying that JM abandoned the cab/van there? OR are they saying the van/cab had been taken out of service, possibly sold, and was located on this property with the intentions of scouring it for evidence?

Or - maybe this has never been made clear - if the former, I trust they thoroughly searched within a radius of where it was found.

 

[SolVol]

Just a goof, but can you see the man and his shadow there, no dreads, I think. There's a fairly big person right at the edge of the forest, by the access road, where the brown pool of water has a curving line, in the south-east corner of the quarry. He's pointed toward a pile of rocks or something. With JM's luck with camera's what are the chances that could be him? Not good, I know.

There's a clearing with a tree or something at the center to the man's right, if you zoom out a bit. It has great isolated access right off the RT60. you see that grassy line cut through trees right to the quarry.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Man...a79c95ae01!2m2!1d-78.5545165!2d37.5518299!3e0

The map link you posted does not zero in on the person/quarry you are talking about. However, if you click on the map at the exact location you are talking about, the coordinates of that point will appear.

 

[SolVol]

Do you mean the game was played TCS = Trinity Christian School, Fairfax, VA?

OOPS - I typed in the coordinates - TCS is The Covenant School - which means it was a home game played in Charlottesville.

That changes things completely...and makes the Seven Bends State Park a far less likely site for JLM to take HG.

 

[JudyBolton]

A fresh grave would elicit a more positive response than an older grave.

Sorry - this is out of order - trying to read backwards and catch up. I rescue hounds (bloodhounds) - I do not do SAR but have friends that do...human bodies that are properly buried, embalmed, in casket, in sealed vault - would not elicit the same ( if any) hits from the dog as an unembalmed body just buried under fresh earth - even if wrapped in plastic. They can differentiate between the tinest of differences - I've heard their sense of smell is 1,000 times more sensitive than a human's. So....are they using the bloodhounds this weekend? Has anyone called in the idea to search rural cemeteries?

 

[Skigirl]

I live in a very wooded area. My dad had cattle growing up if one were missing, the first thing he would do was look for circling buzzards. Some have mentioned that he may have thrown her into a ravine or area without burial underground. As it's been a month, does anyone know how long a body would attract birds of prey. (Sorry - I know this is a horrible thought). I just remember how difficult it was for us to locate a dead, full-grown cow (weighing 100's of lbs.) if she wandered out into deep brush/wooded area. Hope searchers are still looking up as well as down

I used to live in a wooded area that had a farm and had to travel down lots of back roads through long stretches of woods to get from home to...anywhere. Turkey vultures used to hang out on the high industrial power lines towers that weren't too far from my house. Vultures, once they find something, can have it cleared off in less than an hour, especially if there are a bunch of them. A delivery truck hit a deer on our driveway, and by the time I had to leave the house in a couple hours' time, there was literally no trace of it except the bones. There was almost never anything too gross by the side of the road for long because the vultures took care of whatever was there in no time.

ETA: A body would attract buzzards within hours or days at the most, based on my experience with seeing deer that had been hit by cars. Sometimes it took the birds longer than others to find the body, but it was never more than 1-2 days, sometimes it was less than an hour. Often I'd see something on the way out to run errands, come back to find a big mass of birds, then drive by later and see nothing. Vultures didn't always find whatever was out there, though. There were times when I could distinctly smell something in our woods for days without seeing any signs of vultures.

 

[sreshowtime]

I am pretty sure LE/VDEM has been made aware of at least some certain rural cemeteries that might be some how associated with JM....whether they choose/chose to search is up to them I imagine.

fyi-Topographical maps are a good way to find rural/old/abandoned churches and/or cemeteries

also they were made aware of the Calvary church location @ 38.011248, -78.506799 and the adjoining/surrounding woods...any searching?... up to them again

 

[jbowman55]

Sorry - this is out of order - trying to read backwards and catch up. I rescue hounds (bloodhounds) - I do not do SAR but have friends that do...human bodies that are properly buried, embalmed, in casket, in sealed vault - would not elicit the same ( if any) hits from the dog as an unembalmed body just buried under fresh earth - even if wrapped in plastic. They can differentiate between the tinest of differences - I've heard their sense of smell is 1,000 times more sensitive than a human's. So....are they using the bloodhounds this weekend? Has anyone called in the idea to search rural cemeteries?

The report at the link below says that the crews coming for the weekend from Hampton include both ATVs and bloodhounds, in addition to the divers.

http://www.wdbj7.com/news/local/watch-live-2-pm-briefing-on-search-for-hannah-graham/29053258