Hannah's Journey on 09/13

[mysterious minds]

I just google street view "walked" her entire route from McGrady's to the Mall. It is NASTY and very pedestrian unfriendly. The scale of the streets is big and there's not a lot of human non-car activity during the day, even, so I imagine she passed very few people on foot during her walk. The underpass would have caused me a near-meltdown at night if I were alone, so the running makes sense. The businesses along the route were mostly not retail and I imagine not opened at that time of night, which would have added to the spookiness. I also kept getting confused because streets shoot off in different directions, even though I had the map of where I was in the corner of the screen. I can see being spooked after ten or so minutes of walking that awful route at night. The mall must have seemed very inviting after that pedestrian-unfriendly strip mall route. I can't think of many places I'd less like to walk, even during the day.

Then why did she refuse help at McGrady's or go into the gas station and wait for friends? And why didn't she ask to use a phone at any of the places if hers was dying/dead?

 

[Skigirl]

Knowing how people can get defensive while drunk, like when asked or accused of being drunk, especially by a stranger, even the most intoxicated people often deny it. Perhaps the bouncer at McGrady's could tell she was drunk and sensed she was lost so he asked her if she was ok. She said "I'm ok, I'm just walking" as a defense to being presumed as drunk. Also factor in that she was underage - no college girl wants some bouncer to try to get her in trouble for being drunk and underage. Maybe that is why she gave such an odd response. Like "don't worry about me, don't pay attention to me, I'm fine, just walking"

Yeah, that was my take, upthread. "I'm just walking..not trying to sneak into your bar, pay me no mind, moving on."

 

[Skigirl]

Then why did she refuse help at McGrady's or go into the gas station and wait for friends? And why didn't she ask to use a phone at any of the places if her's was dying/dead?

Good question. I doubt it's because she was enjoying her walk down Grady. I think it's because, as Longo indicated, she was confused about which street she was on and thought she was walking back toward the corner on Main, when in fact, she was walking toward the Mall on Grady.

 

[Skigirl]

I believe that all UVa students know where the DM is and how to get there (and it would NOT be by foot). The DM is where you would have brunch/dinner/lunch when your parents visited for the weekend, etc. If HG is as smart as they say, there is no way that she was a 2nd year student at UVa and did not know that she was headed towards downtown and the DM. IMO...no way.

I hate to keep repeating myself, but as someone who has a horrible sense of direction, I never know where I am. I still can't get to one section of my mother's town from the area where she lives. Street names mean very little to me and I have no idea how they relate to one another and whether they are parallel, or intersect. I have this vague feeling that maybe you need to go sort of in the direction of away from town, to the left and not the road near the salt pile, but much to her chagrin, she has to explain to me how to get to the grocery store literally every single time I visit. She has lived there for almost twenty years and I have spent at least a year cumulatively in that small city New England city. Furthermore, I have lived in Durham, NC for six months having moved the HUGE distance from Chapel Hill, all of ten miles away and I still cannot get to the business district near the Duke campus without my GPS even though I live near downtown Durham which is less than three miles away. Hannah was at the very beginning of her sophomore year, meaning she had spent a total of of about 9 months in C-ville. And finally, many college towns have multiple business districts and residential districts with different crowds that tend to hang out in each. Younger students tend to stick to the ones closer to campus. I am not local, but several locals have said that this is the case in C-ville. Not that she would never, ever have been to the Mall, but that she wouldn't have walked there very often.

 

[ILOKAL]

I don't know how many versions of the videos are out there, some may be edited shorter, but the Tuel video where Hannah is walking beside JM shows a white, middle aged male a few paces behind them and a group of young men behind him. At the time that video was first released the white middle aged male was thought to be the same man in the previous video who ducks into a store entrance then follows Hannah. LE did not see JM, they said it was Hannah's reflection. So at the time that post was made here, maybe WG was still the POI is all I'm saying.

JM was not behind Hannah in that video, he was beside her but missed by most people including LE. Longo mentioned at a presser that they reevaluated the video after many people said it was a person. They matched the person beside Hannah to the person in the early video where JM changes direction to follow Hannah and then he became the POI. Particularly after WG went to the station to report what he saw.

Thanks for clearing that up. To ME, that video at Tuel's Jewelers shows that Hannah was walking with JLM because she WANTED to, not because she was being forced to. She looks calm and precise and doesn't appear to be having ANY problem walking. She DOES appear to be having severe angst and appears somewhat disheveled in the McGrady video. I can't help wonder what happened to Hannah from the time she left the apartment party until we see her walking at McGrady's that put her in that state of mind?

Also, how far is it from the apartment party to McGrady's and then from McGrady's to the DTM?

 

[Skigirl]

She still could read the street signs.

What is your theory? That she was lying? That Longo is lying? That she knew where she was going and intended to go for a nice 1:00 AM speedwalk down the Mall? That she had a secret tryst set up with JM that involved her walking for a couple miles instead of him just picking her up in his car? That she was just walking for fun and didn't want her friends to know what she was doing?

 

[RSC]

Thanks for the link, Klily444. Yes that is different and not as ominous, it also appears to be a guess with the "I think" tacked on. But if Hannah knew McGrady's because she had been there with the ski team then I think the guess was wrong.




It may have appeared she knew him (JM) because she knew him. It is the most simple explanation. Hannah was in the bar, possibly with a dead phone. She could have asked Abby or any of the bartenders to call her a cab. I imagine closing time on a Friday night would generate at least a couple of cab requests. Or she could have asked to use a phone. She did neither.


I'm not able to reconcile a straight A student for 6 years being so trusting, naive, and fearless of letting a complete stranger pick her up, buy her a drink, and give her a ride. I think she was smarter than that. I know LE said they have no reason to believe Hannah knew JM, but that's different than knowing for a fact. I am not saying Hannah knew him well, only that he wasn't a complete stranger. Heck, you can be married to someone for 30 years and think you know your spouse only to find out you never really knew him or her.

I was a straight A "gifted" student my entire life; also an athlete and very responsible. So responsible, in fact, that I was very new to drinking and being on my own when I left for college 900 miles away.

It is certainly true that Hannah could have had some sort of agenda downtown. But, here is what I see based simply on my own experiences at that age:

She was excited to go out and party with her friends that night, and drank a good deal (based on what we've heard).

She was hopping from activity to activity--dinner, then a party, then to Grady's and at least had one more party on her radar. I did that many times; sometimes, it was because I was looking for a boy I had a crush on. Sometimes, I was trying to cram all the fun in that I possibly could, and didn't want to miss any party, so I tried to go to all of them. And sometimes, I was just restless (and brave) because I was drunk, so I wandered.

At Grady's, she was pretty drunk. She didn't see or get what she was looking for (access to the bar, bathroom, or a person), but wasn't particularly panicked and saw no need to get "help" from the bouncer, since she was an underage girl.

She headed out in the wrong direction from Grady's, and jogged past the gas station because it was a little creepy.
Got to the mall, got a little worried because she hadn't meant to end up there. This is when WG called her "distressed."

JM jumps in with his jovial manner and leads her to a bar. She is around tons of people, so sees no reason to be worried, and figures she will go to the bar and figure out what to do from there.

HERE is where I think control was taken from her. Either JM bought her shots, and this rapidly pushed her into very drunk, or he drugged her. Otherwise, it makes no sense to me that she could barely stand up when she left--she was walking fine in the Tuel's and Sal's videos.

I would have done ALL of those things, up to this point. I was probably very lucky. But none of it seems unusual to me. I don't think she knew she was lost until she saw the mall, which is why she never needed GPS. Because once she saw the mall, she realized she was lost--then she got anxious. I think that is exactly when she would have used her phone--but JM swooped in before she did so. And, honestly, perhaps she was looking for a bathroom before she called friends. If you are drunk and desperately have to use the bathroom, that may take precedent. And may be enough to make someone appear very distressed.

I would NOT have gotten into the car with a stranger. Unless...I was extremely intoxicated or drugged. We have every expectation that she was one of these at this point, per the statement of the door checker. Then, all bets are off.

I think we could conjecture all night about whether she had some big agenda--but I'm not sure why we would, when a very simple scenario is just as likely. We already know JM looks for vulnerable women; she was clearly vulnerable in those videos. I don't see any gain from trying to add complexity to the scenario.
(Not being snarky--just my opinion!)

 

[Jmm124567]

Thanks for clearing that up. To ME, that video at Tuel's Jewelers shows that Hannah was walking with JLM because she WANTED to, not because she was being forced to. She looks calm and precise and doesn't appear to be having ANY problem walking. She DOES appear to be having severe angst and appears somewhat disheveled in the McGrady video. I can't help wonder what happened to Hannah from the time she left the apartment party until we see her walking at McGrady's that put her in that state of mind?

Also, how far is it from the apartment party to McGrady's and then from McGrady's to the DTM?

From the apartment to McGrady's is a 15 minute walk. From McGrady's to the DTM is a 15 minute walk. She apparently left the party at 11:50. She arrived at McGrady's at 12:45.

 

[Really?]

I am wondering why she let the party alone.....to walk where?

She seemed that have a lot of friends per SM.

Didn't she tells anyone what she was gonna do?

We haven't heard from any fellow students that knew she was going out, have we?

Are they not allowed to elaborate ? Details. She must have told somebody her plans for the evening

 

[jrporter]

I hate to keep repeating myself, but as someone who has a horrible sense of direction, I never know where I am. I still can't get to one section of my mother's town from the area where she lives. Street names mean very little to me and I have no idea how they relate to one another and whether they are parallel, or intersect. I have this vague feeling that maybe you need to go sort of in the direction of away from town, to the left and not the road near the salt pile, but much to her chagrin, she has to explain to me how to get to the grocery store literally every single time I visit. She has lived there for almost twenty years and I have spent at least a year cumulatively in that small city New England city. Furthermore, I have lived in Durham, NC for six months having moved the HUGE distance from Chapel Hill, all of ten miles away and I still cannot get to the business district near the Duke campus without my GPS even though I live near downtown Durham which is less than three miles away. Hannah was at the very beginning of her sophomore year, meaning she had spent a total of of about 9 months in C-ville. And finally, many college towns have multiple business districts and residential districts with different crowds that tend to hang out in each. Younger students tend to stick to the ones closer to campus. I am not local, but several locals have said that this is the case in C-ville. Not that she would never, ever have been to the Mall, but that she wouldn't have walked there very often.

I agree. As a local resident with a better than average sense of direction, it's taken me several years to navigate C'ville off of the main drags...

 

[jrporter]

What is your theory? That she was lying? That Longo is lying? That she knew where she was going and intended to go for a nice 1:00 AM speedwalk down the Mall? That she had a secret tryst set up with JM that involved her walking for a couple miles instead of him just picking her up in his car? That she was just walking for fun and didn't want her friends to know what she was doing?

It's past one am, she's been drinking, is lost by her own admission, and perhaps a bit panicky. We don't know how good her eyesight is (glasses, contacts, etc.), and I'm just not that certain that she either could read the street signs or that they would have been helpful to her in getting home...

 

[Skigirl]

I was a straight A "gifted" student my entire life; also an athlete and very responsible. So responsible, in fact, that I was very new to drinking and being on my own when I left for college 900 miles away.

It is certainly true that Hannah could have had some sort of agenda downtown. But, here is what I see based simply on my own experiences at that age:

She was excited to go out and party with her friends that night, and drank a good deal (based on what we've heard).

She was hopping from activity to activity--dinner, then a party, then to Grady's and at least had one more party on her radar. I did that many times; sometimes, it was because I was looking for a boy I had a crush on. Sometimes, I was trying to cram all the fun in that I possibly could, and didn't want to miss any party, so I tried to go to all of them. And sometimes, I was just restless (and brave) because I was drunk, so I wandered.

At Grady's, she was pretty drunk. She didn't see or get what she was looking for (access to the bar, bathroom, or a person), but wasn't particularly panicked and saw no need to get "help" from the bouncer, since she was an underage girl.

She headed out in the wrong direction from Grady's, and jogged past the gas station because it was a little creepy.
Got to the mall, got a little worried because she hadn't meant to end up there. This is when WG called her "distressed."

JM jumps in with his jovial manner and leads her to a bar. She is around tons of people, so sees no reason to be worried, and figures she will go to the bar and figure out what to do from there.

HERE is where I think control was taken from her. Either JM bought her shots, and this rapidly pushed her into very drunk, or he drugged her. Otherwise, it makes no sense to me that she could barely stand up when she left--she was walking fine in the Tuel's and Sal's videos.

I would have done ALL of those things, up to this point. I was probably very lucky. But none of it seems unusual to me. I don't think she knew she was lost until she saw the mall, which is why she never needed GPS. Because once she saw the mall, she realized she was lost--then she got anxious. I think that is exactly when she would have used her phone--but JM swooped in before she did so. And, honestly, perhaps she was looking for a bathroom before she called friends. If you are drunk and desperately have to use the bathroom, that may take precedent. And may be enough to make someone appear very distressed.

I would NOT have gotten into the car with a stranger. Unless...I was extremely intoxicated or drugged. We have every expectation that she was one of these at this point, per the statement of the door checker. Then, all bets are off.

I think we could conjecture all night about whether she had some big agenda--but I'm not sure why we would, when a very simple scenario is just as likely. We already know JM looks for vulnerable women; she was clearly vulnerable in those videos. I don't see any gain from trying to add complexity to the scenario.
(Not being snarky--just my opinion!)

This rings true to me. I think she was party hopping and had a few she wanted to go to that night. I think she didn't realize she was lost at first, just thought she was heading in the right direction...but may have realized before she got to the Mall that her walk was longer than expected and things were looking less and less like what she expected.

I think by the time we see her moving so quickly down the Mall, she realized she was further away from home than she wanted to be and was probably upset by that, especially after the unpleasant walk down Grady.

I also think that after 30-45 minutes at Tempo (if it was indeed that long), JM went from "stranger" to "friend." Maybe that's why he decided to take her to Tempo. I would have gotten in a car with a "friend" but not a "stranger." I cringe to think of how many times I let a boy walk me home from a party after chatting with him for a while during the evening. What's to say that walking home with a boy you don't know is safer than walking home alone? But that's not how it seems when you're in that situation. You've made a new friend who will help keep you safe. Poor Hannah. I think what there was was a hellishly random set of circumstances that converged in a very unlikely way.

 

[ILOKAL]

From the apartment to McGrady's is a 15 minute walk. From McGrady's to the DTM is a 15 minute walk. She apparently left the party at 11:50. She arrived at McGrady's at 12:45.

Thank you so much Jmm124567. On the map it just looks SO far, but when you break it down I guess it isn't. However, that nearly one hour that she is missing really bothers me. In the hallway video Hannah looks confident and put together. When she arrives at McGrady's 55 minutes later she looks disheveled, scared, paranoid, and worried. She appears to be in distress. To me she looks like something happened to her. IMO, someone knows and someone's not talking. I DO realize that whatever may or may not have happened during that period of time has no direct bearing on her abduction and murder, but that question clearly needs to be answered, IMO, because at least one person KNOWS the answer.

 

[FindHG]

I agree. As a local resident with a better than average sense of direction, it's taken me several years to navigate C'ville off of the main drags...

I went back there after years for a very quick visit with friends and a late bite at the mall on a week night. It wasn't easy navigating around town, kept circling around and wondering how we ended up in the same place. This isn't in retrospect or anything, more part of what made the Hannah Graham's disappearance real for me was that night we were there, where she was in the video. Going back to our car, it didn't feel at all safe, we had our guard really up. We had no knowledge of any of the missing young women. It was the first time I had felt any fear there, from childhood on revisiting the area, then later friends and family at UVA. Our children are growing up in world that is so much less safe, it really takes communities to come together and stay vigilant to counter ill-intended people. It's too easy to ignore until it effects you personally and too uncomfortable to deal with, but it seems more and more necessary. I'm not sure how though.

 

[Skigirl]

On the locked thread titled Maps & Videos where it shows Hannah walking past Tuel's Jewelers, on the page of the thread that lists the various maps and videos, above this link it says that the man (clearly JLM) is walking a few steps behind Hannah. I have looked at it over and over and they definitely appear to be walking click-step, side-by-side even with the same stride. Hannah is walking briskly and comfortably - much differently that the way she was walking at McGrady's. IMO. Is this how others see it?

Yes, the way I view the Tuel's video is that she is walking briskly but more slowly than when she was almost running past Sal's (look at how quickly she streaks by the group, although admittedly they are sort of ambling). Since she and JLM were pretty close in height, it looks like they easily fell in stride and both were walking at a brisk, but comfortable speed. In the McGrady's video, she reminds me a little of a baby giraffe, a bit unsteady and sort of awkward, hesitant. Definitely different than in Tuel's.

 

[R.U.Kidding!]

I am wondering why she let the party alone.....to walk where?

She seemed that have a lot of friends per SM.

Didn't she tells anyone what she was gonna do?

We haven't heard from any fellow students that knew she was going out, have we?

Are they not allowed to elaborate ? Details. She must have told somebody her plans for the evening

I happen to wonder the same thing, Really. I mean very seldom in high school or college do you just up and leave your friends at one party to go to another party on your own. One or more of your friends would be tagging along. Now if you were meeting someone that would be the only reason to go alone.
You were meeting a new guy or friend and they were meeting up with you to go to a party they knew about and had invited you. Your friends did not know them and therefore were not invited.

This is why from the beginning I have thought she was meeting up with someone, and it very well could have been JLM. Even though they would make an odd couple--he could be very charming, and may have seemed like a fun guy who knew a lot of things going on around town. For me there is just no way I see someone like Hannah just heading off late at night, by herself to look for another party. She just does not seem that "worldly"

I was crazy when I was in college and there would never be ME going by myself anywhere with out some of my friends taking off with me. I wanted to have the Group with me or I was staying where I was......and if I would not have done that I would say from everything we know about Hannah she was not the crazy type like me. Just sayin.

 

[Jmm124567]

What is your theory? That she was lying? That Longo is lying? That she knew where she was going and intended to go for a nice 1:00 AM speedwalk down the Mall? That she had a secret tryst set up with JM that involved her walking for a couple miles instead of him just picking her up in his car? That she was just walking for fun and didn't want her friends to know what she was doing?

I think the police could have some discrepancies in there timeline or are making a mistake somewhere. It just makes no sense. If she is lost she is going to be looking at the street signs. When she left McGrady's she stopped momentarily right in front of the street sign. Maybe based on her last text saying she was at 14th and Wertland maybe the police are thinking she really thought she was there and based on that the police are thinking that when she was walking on Preston towards the DTM she really thought she was on Main walking towards UVA and then thought she arrived around 14th and Wertland.

 

[Jmm124567]

Thank you so much Jmm124567. On the map it just looks SO far, but when you break it down I guess it isn't. However, that nearly one hour that she is missing really bothers me. In the hallway video Hannah looks confident and put together. When she arrives at McGrady's 55 minutes later she looks disheveled, scared, paranoid, and worried. She appears to be in distress. To me she looks like something happened to her. IMO, someone knows and someone's not talking. I DO realize that whatever may or may not have happened during that period of time has no direct bearing on her abduction and murder, but that question clearly needs to be answered, IMO, because at least one person KNOWS the answer.

I think she was likely tired from walking for almost an hour and irritated that she couldn't find whatever she was looking for. She was likely walking the whole time from when she left the party to when she arrived at McGrady's.

 

[Skigirl]

I happen to wonder the same thing, Really. I mean very seldom in high school or college do you just up and leave your friends at one party to go to another party on your own. One or more of your friends would be tagging along. Now if you were meeting someone that would be the only reason to go alone.
You were meeting a new guy or friend and they were meeting up with you to go to a party they knew about and had invited you. Your friends did not know them and therefore were not invited.

This is why from the beginning I have thought she was meeting up with someone, and it very well could have been JLM. Even though they would make an odd couple--he could be very charming, and may have seemed like a fun guy who knew a lot of things going on around town. For me there is just no way I see someone like Hannah just heading off late at night, by herself to look for another party. She just does not seem that "worldly"

I was crazy when I was in college and there would never be ME going by myself anywhere with out some of my friends taking off with me. I wanted to have the Group with me or I was staying where I was......and if I would not have done that I would say from everything we know about Hannah she was not the crazy type like me. Just sayin.

I understand what you're saying, but she's also alone when both entering leaving the apartment building where she's caught on video in the hallway. The way I understand/recall it was that she had arrived and left that party alone, and then went to the next party where she also arrived and left alone (male friend offered to walk her home, she declined). After that, she shows up at McGrady's alone. So for whatever reason, she was going to various places -- not just the Mall -- alone. That makes me doubt that the reason she was alone on the Mall is that she was planning to meet up with JM.

I think it's sort of odd, because I always went to parties with other people (usually they were the ones who knew where the parties were and had charted the course for the evening and I was just going with the flow). But since she was on the ski team but also probably had friends from her first year dorm and other activities, maybe the parties she was attending were with different groups that didn't mix much, hence she would have gone alone without having friends from one group come along to a party with the other group or groups.

 

[ILOKAL]

I think she was likely tired from walking for almost an hour and irritated that she couldn't find whatever she was looking for. She was likely walking the whole time from when she left the party to when she arrived at McGrady's.

Well, here's the problem. She WASN'T walking for an hour as far as we know. It's only a 15 min walk to McGrady's and Hannah has a long stride.