Hannah's Journey on 09/13

[jamicat]

Well those charges stemmed from a search of his car....not from what they know of JLM via video or, witnesses...so I'm guessing THEY have more proof

We don't know what those charges stemmed from. LE has not said. We have NO IDEA what proof LE has. THe DA refused to press charges, something Longo was chomping at the bit about, and pretty much said so on national TV during an interview,saying that it was the DA's call. The day or so afterwards the abduction with intent to defile charge was pressed.

I hope that they have enough evidence to support that. What they would have had to have found in the car to pres those charges might make a daunting list. They were "desperately" (their word choice, not mine) looking for anyone who had video footage or had seen either Hannah or JM after 1:40 AM. I think they found evidence that Hannah was in the car, but I also think that was pretty much a foregone conclusion and no big deal So he gave her a ride. Need proof he gave her more than a ride. That she was coerced. And those tapes showing her going with him willingly, and him taking "care" of her may go against LE in those charges. Can't prove he gave her any drinks.

Though at this point, I think that the DA and LE are going after much bigger charges, like murder. Hopefully Hannah gives up some evidence even though no longer alive, as to what was done to her and who did it.

Usually, it 's the stronger, most serious cases that go to court first, because then it might make the other cases moot if the perp gets life. It's not a good sign that the Fairfax rape case is moving so quickly, IMO. The defense likes delays in the big cases, wheras the state is more interested in moving quickly. No charges on the MH and no upgrades on Hannah's case charges right now. I hope it's because there is so much evidence that the labs are overwhelmed, not because there isn't much. I had hoped Hannah's body, clothes would be a weatlh of DNA evidence, but the condition in which it was found may not have even left intact teeth in the jaw to do a dental id due to the carrion birds.

 

[ThinkHard]

Just for reference: I have a daughter in college on the East Coast. At parties, there are two drinks to choose from: "Grain", which is a mixture of cheap grain alcohol and kool aid or other powdered drink mix, and beer. Nobody is mixing drinks at the parties. It's a keg and a big tub of "grain".

Yes that's how it is at some schools, usually bigger schools. But smaller schools don't always have a big batch of grain in a nasty trash barrel. And yes no one is usually mixing drinks at a college party...but its not uncommon to bring a mixed drink with you to a party that's in a nalgene or something similar. That's what we would do, mix our drinks while getting ready, then bring them with us.

 

[Jmm124567]

We don't know what those charges stemmed from. LE has not said. We have NO IDEA what proof LE has. THe DA refused to press charges, something Longo was chomping at the bit about, and pretty much said so on national TV during an interview,saying that it was the DA's call. The day or so afterwards the abduction with intent to defile charge was pressed.

I hope that they have enough evidence to support that. What they would have had to have found in the car to pres those charges might make a daunting list. They were "desperately" (their word choice, not mine) looking for anyone who had video footage or had seen either Hannah or JM after 1:40 AM. I think they found evidence that Hannah was in the car, but I also think that was pretty much a foregone conclusion and no big deal So he gave her a ride. Need proof he gave her more than a ride. That she was coerced. And those tapes showing her going with him willingly, and him taking "care" of her may go against LE in those charges. Can't prove he gave her any drinks.

Though at this point, I think that the DA and LE are going after much bigger charges, like murder. Hopefully Hannah gives up some evidence even though no longer alive, as to what was done to her and who did it.

Usually, it 's the stronger, most serious cases that go to court first, because then it might make the other cases moot if the perp gets life. It's not a good sign that the Fairfax rape case is moving so quickly, IMO. The defense likes delays in the big cases, wheras the state is more interested in moving quickly. No charges on the MH and no upgrades on Hannah's case charges right now. I hope it's because there is so much evidence that the labs are overwhelmed, not because there isn't much. I had hoped Hannah's body, clothes would be a weatlh of DNA evidence, but the condition in which it was found may not have even left intact teeth in the jaw to do a dental id due to the carrion birds.

I think they have good evidence to back up the charges. The DA is not going to charge someone if he/she feels the evidence is not strong and won't get them a conviction. The fact that Longo seemed to think JM should be charged but the DA wouldn't do it shows that the DA wants strong evidence. This seems common in LE, the police feel that charges should be brought up but the DA tells them "not yet, find me more evidence." Also the fact that JM was not charged with murder shows the DA is taking it one step at a time and charging JM with what he/she feels they can prove at the moment. I think LE likely found a piece of HG clothing in JM car or apartment probably her shirt and Longo felt JM should be charged immediately but the DA first wanted forensic results showing HG DNA is on it so we can prove it is in fact hers. It seems like forensic results may have been the nail in the coffin because Longo said they should have forensic results back by Tuesday evening and that is when JM was charged.

 

[Evie Ivy Over]

I really do not think HG was at the intersection of 4th and Market St. An eye witness likely thought they saw HG there but were mistaken. She entered the mall by turning down 2nd St. NW off of Market St. A store's surveillance camera on 2nd St. caught her walking into the mall.

The police are also saying that HG thought she was on Main when really she was on Preston. I have a hard time believing this because I think HG would be looking at the street signs. I'm assuming LE has a text message that shows she texted a friend saying she was on Main when around the time of the text surveillance video or an eyewitness puts her walking on Preston. If it was an eye witness then they could be incorrect. It is very easy for eye witnesses to make mistakes.

I had read before that HG had been seen on Market Street (supposing by a witness). Wonder if maybe they saw her there AFTER she left Tempo, rather than before?

 

[ThinkHard]

I really do not think HG was at the intersection of 4th and Market St. An eye witness likely thought they saw HG there but were mistaken. She entered the mall by turning down 2nd St. NW off of Market St. A store's surveillance camera on 2nd St. caught her walking into the mall.

The police are also saying that HG thought she was on Main when really she was on Preston. I have a hard time believing this because I think HG would be looking at the street signs. I'm assuming LE has a text message that shows she texted a friend saying she was on Main when around the time of the text surveillance video or an eyewitness puts her walking on Preston. If it was an eye witness then they could be incorrect. It is very easy for eye witnesses to make mistakes.

Im not sure im reading the cops statement the same way you are seeing it. Though he stated witnesses saw her at 4th and market, and that she was walking eastbound, he doesn't actually say that's the order those two things happened in. It seems like he's just listing known things, but not neccasrily in sequential order.

4th and market wouldn't have been very far from Tempo....just across the mall....and we do not know what time this sighting was. Maybe JM parked his car on market and a witness saw them there walking to the car...there is also about a half hr window when we have no official HG sighting....so we don't know where she was then.

 

[netsleuth]

So, the second party Hannah went to was at the Hospitality House? She left the second party at 11:50. We don't know what she did or where she went between 11:50 and 12:45. However, if she was on foot to McGrady's, no matter what route she traveled, it would seem like she would have been captured on video somewhere, doesn't it? It just seems odd that we have her on video at McGrady's, the Shell Station and several places in the DTM yet no video of her during that 55 minutes.

I believe that she left the last party at 12:15 A.M. The best I can tell, Hannah had dinner with friends at a restaurant located on the Corner. She then went to the GranMarc apartments, where she lived. I'm not sure if she attended a party at the GranMarc, or not; however, she either left the GranMarc or arrived at Camden Plaza at approximately 9:30 P.M. (conflicting accounts as to which apartment complex the video footage is from). Hannah left the party at Camden Plaza at 11:30 and went to a party at The Point apartments. She was seen leaving the last party at 12:15 A.M.

All three apartment complexes at in the 14th Street area.

http://www.cavalierdaily.com/article/2014/09/graham-investigation-day-five

http://www.c-ville.com/hannah-graham-tracking-investigation-far/#.VFMC6ix0zIU

 

[Conductor71]

We don't know exactly where HG lived, but if she were headed straight to another party or home what would have been the most direct route? Been looking for this route projected onto a map but have not been able to find one. We don't know her address but at least could go on where most student residences are clustered. If anyone can link to a map like this I would appreciate it.

 

[jamicat]

LE has not released a lot of the info about Hannah before she got to the mall, though I think they have a very good idea of her time line up to leaving hte area. They also have all the info on her phone. She should have had gps on there, but instead was likely texting and talking to friends. DIdn't help her already impaired sense of direction, I'm sure.

I don't think LE is interested in that time line anyways. It seems like the students cooperated, no sense of any issues there. LE's is trying to gain some good handle with good evidence as to what happened after Hannah left the mall area and get the evidnece to die JM to Hannah's murder. I am so hoping they have some really good stuff. It would be such a kick in the face, a travesty if he can walk a way from this. He's a very dangerous person.

 

[Jmm124567]

Im not sure im reading the cops statement the same way you are seeing it. Though he stated witnesses saw her at 4th and market, and that she was walking eastbound, he doesn't actually say that's the order those two things happened in. It seems like he's just listing known things, but not neccasrily in sequential order.

4th and market wouldn't have been very far from Tempo....just across the mall....and we do not know what time this sighting was. Maybe JM parked his car on market and a witness saw them there walking to the car...there is also about a half hr window when we have no official HG sighting....so we don't know where she was then.

I saw it as being sequential. And I would think if she was on 4th and Market after leaving Tempo she would have been with JM and the detective would have said she was seen with him at 4th and Market.

 

[Jmm124567]

We don't know exactly where HG lived, but if she were headed straight to another party or home what would have been the most direct route? Been looking for this route projected onto a map but have not been able to find one. We don't know her address but at least could go on where most student residences are clustered. If anyone can link to a map like this I would appreciate it.

We do know where HG lived. She lived in the GranMarc apartments. It's a huge, nice apartment complex where a lot of UVA students live. It's so big it has a nice multi story parking garage.

 

[JoM7]

I agree, after midnight, in poorly-lit, sparsely crowded places is unsafe. But what is safe? And what is an acceptable trade-off between safety and living life?

Last night I went to dinner downtown with a friend after a business meeting. We started early and finished dinner at 9:30 or so. I had had one drink. Her car was closer than mine, and the street we were on was one-way street in a different direction from my car, so even though she offered to drive me, it would have involved about fifteen minutes of around the block/one way streets/stop lights, and it didn't seem worth it so we parted ways and I walked the two blocks to my car alone. But it was dark, and I could almost see the surveillance video of myself and read the discussions here on Websleuths about my strange disappearance and how foolish I was to walk by myself at night and after having a drink, no less.

On the one hand, life would be very safe if we all sat in our homes after dark, and if women were always escorted by men, and at that only male relatives, and failing that, always traveled everywhere together and were not allowed out otherwise (sound familiar?) but on the other hand, we have to live our lives. It's a tough to know where to draw the line. What about in the winter when it's dark at 5? Do we have to stay in after 5 PM? 6? is 10 PM acceptable? 11? What about getting up early in the morning? Is it safe to go for a jog at 5? 6? Or do I have to buy a treadmill now?:thinking:

My thoughts exactly. I absolutely can not stand being afraid to be out after dark because I might come in contact with a monster. I live on a lake, one in which I used to walk around on a daily basis until two women were raped nearby. Now I don't even think about it. And you know what? That SUCKS.

I will also say that in my teens and early twenties, before college and during college, I did a lot of walking around in the early morning hours by myself. Nine times out of ten it was because my ride to the next party or home was too drunk to drive and I had no other way to get where I was going. I shudder to think of the possibilities.

In Hannah's case, it probably didn't even occur to her to be worried walking around at that hour. She'd had some drinks, her inhibitions were lowered, she may or may not have been meeting up with someone. You put alcohol and/or drugs into someone, and all reasoning goes out the window. We can talk until we're blue in the face and our kids are going to do what seems the best option at that very moment.

This whole situation makes me sick to my stomach. Hannah and Morgan both, I imagine, in the car, at some point the awful dread of realizing something isn't right. The sour taste in their mouths, the fear they must have been feeling. I hope and pray the truth comes out and someone pays for it.

 

[JoM7]

In a lot of college towns there are local "characters" that become familiar to everyone because they are doing something eccentric, or are super friendly and greet everyone, or because they stand on a box and preach, or strum the guitar tunelessly for hours, or they are always sitting in a certain coffee shop day in, day out, etc. etc. etc. I've always wondered if she felt comfortable with him as quickly as she did because he was a familiar Charlottesville "character," someone that a lot of people felt they knew even when they really had only seen him around a lot. I know when I was in college, there were a number of people like that around town that, if they had come over and struck up a conversation, would have seemed like acquaintances even though I had never really talked with them one-on-one.

This brings me to another question. JLM had left two colleges not long after rape allegations had been made about him, not to mention various other problems with the law. I guess we can't all to around with scarlet letters on our foreheads advertising our past sins, but it's too bad the authorities hadn't kept their eye on him. The more I type this the more I realize it's just not possible. But it seems to me that with all those missing women, the MH perp never having been found, the eyewitness sketch, the authorities would have had their eye on JLM long before now.

 

[jamicat]

My thoughts exactly. I absolutely can not stand being afraid to be out after dark because I might come in contact with a monster. I live on a lake, one in which I used to walk around on a daily basis until two women were raped nearby. Now I don't even think about it. And you know what? That SUCKS.

I will also say that in my teens and early twenties, before college and during college, I did a lot of walking around in the early morning hours by myself. Nine times out of ten it was because my ride to the next party or home was too drunk to drive and I had no other way to get where I was going. I shudder to think of the possibilities.

In Hannah's case, it probably didn't even occur to her to be worried walking around at that hour. She'd had some drinks, her inhibitions were lowered, she may or may not have been meeting up with someone. You put alcohol and/or drugs into someone, and all reasoning goes out the window. We can talk until we're blue in the face and our kids are going to do what seems the best option at that very moment.

This whole situation makes me sick to my stomach. Hannah and Morgan both, I imagine, in the car, at some point the awful dread of realizing something isn't right. The sour taste in their mouths, the fear they must have been feeling. I hope and pray the truth comes out and someone pays for it.

Makes me sick too. that there are such monsters out there.

I agree that Hannah just wasn't thinking about these things that night. She went out a lone in a cropped shiny top, easy shoes (not for walking), no purse, just cell phone and whatever else that fits in a pocket of tight pants. She probably was planning to just be in the neighborhood. That whole area, the Corner is teeming with UVA undergrads and I don't think anyone feels unsafe walking around there. At that time with parties galore going on, the area was hopping. Very much a safe haven.

That she had been drinking, and my guess is that she was preoccupied with her phone--that's what I see everyday is young people walking while fixated on their phones, she went the wrong way to that last party, turned around and didn't even notice until she'd gotten quite a ways out there. And finds herself in the area of the mall. LE seems satsified that she wasn't heading there and that she did turn herself around. They have her texts and other phone activity during that time, and they have stated she was in touch with friends.

It' didn't seem a big deal to get a ride for the very short distance she wanted to go, just 2-3 miles, minutes in a car from a friendly guy at the mall. A quick drink, and he'd drop her off and all is good. But guy turned out to be a monster.

 

[ILOKAL]

I believe that she left the last party at 12:15 A.M. The best I can tell, Hannah had dinner with friends at a restaurant located on the Corner. She then went to the GranMarc apartments, where she lived. I'm not sure if she attended a party at the GranMarc, or not; however, she either left the GranMarc or arrived at Camden Plaza at approximately 9:30 P.M. (conflicting accounts as to which apartment complex the video footage is from). Hannah left the party at Camden Plaza at 11:30 and went to a party at The Point apartments. She was seen leaving the last party at 12:15 A.M.

All three apartment complexes at in the 14th Street area.

http://www.cavalierdaily.com/article/2014/09/graham-investigation-day-five

http://www.c-ville.com/hannah-graham-tracking-investigation-far/#.VFMC6ix0zIU

Every account I've read has Hannah leaving the last party where friends were with her at 11:50 with no sightings until she arrived at McGrady's at 12:45. Her whereabouts for 55 minutes are unknown.

 

[ThinkHard]

This brings me to another question. JLM had left two colleges not long after rape allegations had been made about him, not to mention various other problems with the law. I guess we can't all to around with scarlet letters on our foreheads advertising our past sins, but it's too bad the authorities hadn't kept their eye on him. The more I type this the more I realize it's just not possible. But it seems to me that with all those missing women, the MH perp never having been found, the eyewitness sketch, the authorities would have had their eye on JLM long before now.

JMO but I DO think he was (at least on the periphery) on their radar. I have nothing but a hunch to back that up...and something about Longos urgency when they knew who she was with...before the MH connection.

Unrelated...but did LE ever say that they DON'T have her cell phone....or are we just guessing that because they never SAID they DID have it.

Is it possible that when they search JM's car they found Hannah's smashed phone?

Also we know her last text was either at 1:06 or 1:20...but have we been told if there was any indication when her phone went dead after that?

If it still had battery...could it have pinged HG very very close to where they have video of JMs car leaving the area?

Perhaps he didn't smash it until they got to his car...but he of course knew he couldn't drive away from the area without disabling it.

Anyway my thought was if they found her phone in his car, and it was smashed....that'd be pretty damning evidence for abduction wouldn't it?

 

[Skigirl]

This brings me to another question. JLM had left two colleges not long after rape allegations had been made about him, not to mention various other problems with the law. I guess we can't all to around with scarlet letters on our foreheads advertising our past sins, but it's too bad the authorities hadn't kept their eye on him. The more I type this the more I realize it's just not possible. But it seems to me that with all those missing women, the MH perp never having been found, the eyewitness sketch, the authorities would have had their eye on JLM long before now.

I used to be a college professor and I have a close relative who was raped on a college campus (by a stranger, who knows if it was a student). IMHO, colleges have been given WAY TOO MUCH freedom to deal with rape than they should. Yes, they have to report statistics (thank god, before that, they didn't even have to do that much and often didn't), but they are still allowed to decide whether to deal with a student-rapist internally or externally, and I think they should be required to report a rape or suspected rape to the police if they become aware of it. Kick him out? Just kick the guy out and stay mum? No. I believe in the first instance with JM the victim didn't want to cooperate, but why was that information not shared with the second school? And I believe the second one did zip, but say "not our problem." And even if they did not do that, they could have under current laws. Should not happen.

 

[Skigirl]

JMO but I DO think he was (at least on the periphery) on their radar. I have nothing but a hunch to back that up...and something about Longos urgency when they knew who she was with...before the MH connection.

Unrelated...but did LE ever say that they DON'T have her cell phone....or are we just guessing that because they never SAID they DID have it.

Is it possible that when they search JM's car they found Hannah's smashed phone?

Also we know her last text was either at 1:06 or 1:20...but have we been told if there was any indication when her phone went dead after that?

If it still had battery...could it have pinged HG very very close to where they have video of JMs car leaving the area?

Perhaps he didn't smash it until they got to his car...but he of course knew he couldn't drive away from the area without disabling it.

Anyway my thought was if they found her phone in his car, and it was smashed....that'd be pretty damning evidence for abduction wouldn't it?

- In the first press conference after the search, Longo said that the person of interest was "well known" to his department.
- Volunteer searchers were asked to look for an iPhone with a pink case, presumably HG's, during that big search the weekend of, I think, September 20th, so at least then, her phone had not been found. That was after the car search.
- They said her phone had gone dead/there were no pings after she made her last call -- this was very early before they'd found/released the mall videos.


Net, I don't think they found the phone in JM's car, but I do hope they've since found it someplace.

 

[Skigirl]

I've said something similar in a thread. Most of my female friends in college did not drink beer because of the calories, the taste, bloated feeling, and beer belly. With the top she was wearing, I don't see a girl like Hannah drinking beer. But who knows, really? I guess it doesn't matter as much now that she's been found.

Her twitter feed references drinking beer.

 

[Skigirl]

Heres a scary thought that I havent seen anyone mention yet.

What if the time for that text about being lost near 14th and Wertland was sent at 1:50am.

Long shot I know..... but people, particularly those with dyslexia, get 5 and 2 confused sometimes.

What if that text was sent to lure some friends to come find HG?

Again a long shot but it wouldnt be the first time a serial killer/rapist has escalated to the point of needing/wanting multiple victims in one night.

I am not following. You think maybe someone in LE has dyslexia and therefore misreported the time of the last text? HG or JM having dyslexia wouldn't bear on what time the text went out and was recorded by verizon or AT&T or by the recipient's phone or phone company. Maybe I'm missing something.

 

[jamicat]

- In the first press conference after the search, Longo said that the person of interest was "well known" to his department.
- Volunteer searchers were asked to look for an iPhone with a pink case, presumably HG's, during that big search the weekend of, I think, September 20th, so at least then, her phone had not been found. That was after the car search.
- They said her phone had gone dead/there were no pings after she made her last call -- this was very early before they'd found/released the mall videos.


Net, I don't think they found the phone in JM's car, but I do hope they've since found it someplace.

That JM was "well known" to the police, is no surprise to me. Doesn't necessarily mean they thought he was a big time danger. As a cabbie and a regular in the Charlottesville scene for so many years, I would think he was well known to LE.

I remember that they had not found her phone, but I imagine they got the phone records--parents probably paid for the service and it would likely be in their name so the access was probably quite quick. From comments, they seem to have known who she texted, spoke to as she made her way to the mall. I still am not sure of the time of the last call. Last I noted it was 1:06 AM and it puzzled LE because she texted she was lost at 14th and W(?) street when she could not have been there. How soon after that call her phone completely died, I have no idea. Whether it ran out of battery or if JM smashed it or threw it into a storm sewer , or all three, we don't know.