HCPD contacts Florida LE about skeletal remains that were found

[EmmaRose]

I thought it was interesting that TE posted..."today's word for thought is retribution".....the day before the article about the Mickey sheets came out. Mods,I hope it is ok to comment on this.lease:

The timing surely is interesting, as well as the word TE chose to post that day. When I originally read his post, I thought he had just gotten new info to make him say that, but I didn't know about the Mickey sheet at the time. Now, it makes sense, thanks for pointing it out!!!

 

[EmmaRose]

This quote was written by TM above a picture of her daughter. If this lady made homemade Disney items (including pillowcases) for TM, I wonder if she made homemade Disney sheets like the one found with the unidentified body in this thread? Sorry if this has been brought up but I just came across this again when I was going through pics of SM & TM's family, trips, house and Disney Themed Camper:


See the banners in this picture? A very good friend I met through Dis made these. She has made the kids t shirts, pillowcases, etc over the years. She is fantastic and the attention to detail is the best I've ever seen. If you need personalized Disney stuff let me know and I will give you her information. She is the best!

Here's TM's Disney Dream Cruise thread from October 2012:

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?p=46509149.

Sure hope her own words come back to bite her. Funny, too, that she is talking about their antics aboard a cruise liner - what comes to mind is loose lips sink ships.

 

[Madeleine74]

If the remains were Heather & LE knew it was Heather, then why would the TX forensic lab and resources be utilized to try to determine the identity of the remains? That would be a waste of another jurisdiction's resources and time. I really don't think those kind of games are played, where remains are sent around, but the originating jurisdiction knows (which would be based on their own testing) who the remains are.

The indication to me is that an ID of the remains has not been able to be made and a better/more extensive forensic lab with experts is needed to assist in making this determination.

And, if the remains were already determined to be Heather, why would the state be unable to allow Heather's remains to be released to her family for burial? All the evidence would have been collected, photographs taken, xrays taken, DNA extracted. There would be no reason to hold on to remains once those remains were identified and properly examined. The remains themselves are not ever brought into a courtroom.

 

[atthelake]

Ever since the body was found in Deland, I've had a sinking feeling in my stomach. I truly believe it's Heather and the way LE is keeping this under wraps just makes my suspicions even higher. I have no doubt in my mind that Tammy wouldn't burn the body or use chemicals to make gathering DNA difficult, and put Heather into a trash bag as she obviously considered Heather a piece of trash, and throwing her on the side of the road.

I feel like LE isn't being completely forthcoming with the details of the body. I feel like they definitely know more than what they are saying and at this point knows whether or not it's Heather. The fact that they aren't denying it just makes it even worse. I can't imagine what the Elvis family feels, they must be on pins and needles waiting to hear something. :shakehead:

Something's a little fishy. :fishy:

:fishy: :fishy: :fishy: :fishy: :fishy: :fishy: :fishy: :fishy:

 

[Motherof5]

If the remains were Heather & LE knew it was Heather, then why would the TX forensic lab and resources be utilized to try to determine the identity of the remains? That would be a waste of another jurisdiction's resources and time. I really don't think those kind of games are played, where remains are sent around, but the originating jurisdiction knows (which would be based on their own testing) who the remains are.

The indication to me is that an ID of the remains has not been able to be made and a better/more extensive forensic lab with experts is needed to assist in making this determination.

And, if the remains were already determined to be Heather, why would the state be unable to allow Heather's remains to be released to her family for burial? All the evidence would have been collected, photographs taken, xrays taken, DNA extracted. There would be no reason to hold on to remains once those remains were identified and properly examined. The remains themselves are not ever brought into a courtroom.

I didn't mean to imply that I think that they know who these remains belong to. I was simply agreeing with you as to LE keeping families in the loop. As you said,if they knew the remains belong to Heather, or anyone else, they wouldn't be sending them on for further testing. I just think the timing and content of TE's post is interesting.

 

[Mahouston69]

With all the extensive testing and resources..They've not been able to eliminate her, that's enough for me. It's not enough for prosecution and further testing might prove it is. The gag order won't let them tell us either way till lifted.

 

[Foxfire]

BBM:


Thank you Foxfire. Very interesting to see it stated this way, 7 possible different crime scenes. Makes sense.

YW, margarita25. Just my opinion, but I feel that the Moorers, likely TM had done some very extensive internet crime research into investigations; body disposal, forensics, etc.. Imo, if the FL remains are those of HE, and I truly believe they are, either the fire pit was utilized to incinerate her remains or a chemical accelerant such as lime or drano was used to hasten decomposition. Imo, TM was under the illusion that if there is no body, there is no crime.. Not to be confused with corpus delicti... jmo

Corpus Delicti; (corpus dee-lick-tie) Latin for the substantial fact that a crime has been committed, and in popular crime jargon, the body of the murder victim. The foundation or material substance of a crime.

The phrase corpus delicti might be used to mean the physical object upon which the crime was committed, such as a dead body, or the charred remains of a house, or it might signify the act itself, that is, the murder or arson.

The corpus delicti is also used to describe the evidence that proves that a crime has been committed.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Corpus+delicti

 

[TedMac]

If the remains were Heather & LE knew it was Heather, then why would the TX forensic lab and resources be utilized to try to determine the identity of the remains? That would be a waste of another jurisdiction's resources and time. I really don't think those kind of games are played, where remains are sent around, but the originating jurisdiction knows (which would be based on their own testing) who the remains are.

The indication to me is that an ID of the remains has not been able to be made and a better/more extensive forensic lab with experts is needed to assist in making this determination.

And, if the remains were already determined to be Heather, why would the state be unable to allow Heather's remains to be released to her family for burial? All the evidence would have been collected, photographs taken, xrays taken, DNA extracted. There would be no reason to hold on to remains once those remains were identified and properly examined. The remains themselves are not ever brought into a courtroom.

BBM The only thing I can suggest is (assuming this is Heather) maybe the Solicitor's Office simply wanted to get a 2nd opinion to erase any reasonable doubt the defense counsel could try to put into the minds of the jury. For example, defense counsel in its either opening or closing statement could say something like this: "Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury, the prosecution is bringing forth evidence in the form of a skeleton that they claim is the deceased, but the lab initially said the results are inconclusive as to who the remains really are."

The 2nd lab analysis would completely eliminate that argument.

All of this is MOO.

 

[Madeleine74]

I've never heard of any case where another jurisdiction and their resources were used so that the defense wouldn't be able to claim the remains might not be the victim.

It seems LE doesn’t know who these remains are. For me that's not an indication it's Heather; the inability to make a conclusive ID does not equal "therefore it must be Heather."

 

[TedMac]

I've never heard of any case where another jurisdiction and their resources were used so that the defense wouldn't be able to claim the remains might not be the victim.

It seems LE doesn’t know who these remains are. For me that's not an indication it's Heather; the inability to make a conclusive ID does not equal "therefore it must be Heather."

BBM I haven't heard of that either. But, this case is not like most. Most cases I have read about have not had inconclusive DNA results or at least had it announced as inconclusive.

You are correct that this may not be Heather. I originally thought that she was buried somewhere in SC, but now I am not so sure. I initially didn't believe that the trash bag of bones was her. However, when I read that the body was wrapped in homemade Mickey Mouse sheets...

 

[Madeleine74]

The inclusion of MM sheets does not provide me with any further information on the ID of the remains. IF the Moorer family were the only ones who had Disney & MM themed sheets then I'd think it's probably her. But given the location of the remains and the fact that a major industry and brand is located nearby, which happens to sell tons of merch, that gives me pause. I really don't know and won't know until or unless it's announced. But bottomline, for me "inconclusive" is not a positive ID. It certainly would not hold up in court.

 

[stillwatersc]

[/B]
BBM I haven't heard of that either. But, this case is not like most. Most cases I have read about have not had inconclusive DNA results or at least had it announced as inconclusive.

You are correct that this may not be Heather. I originally thought that she was buried somewhere in SC, but now I am not so sure. I initially didn't believe that the trash bag of bones was her. However, when I read that the body was wrapped in homemade Mickey Mouse sheets...

I agree. I even thought starting this thread was overkill on the subject. :blushing: Now that Florida won't release autopsy results & other info due to the gag order - to me that is pretty big. Namus says that dentals are available - which logically would mean that dentals did not rule out Heather.

I pray that the world will know what those two did to Heather - that Tammy will be totally exposed for what she is and most of all PEACE and JUSTICE for the Elvis family.

Also justice for the little princess (whoever she is) left by the road wrapped in Disney sheets and a pink robe.

 

[TedMac]

The inclusion of MM sheets does not provide me with any further information on the ID of the remains. IF the Moorer family were the only ones who had Disney & MM themed sheets then I'd think it's probably her. But given the location of the remains and the fact that a major industry and brand is located nearby, which happens to sell tons of merch, that gives me pause. I really don't know and won't know until or unless it's announced. But bottomline, for me "inconclusive" is not a positive ID. It certainly would not hold up in court.

BBM I Agree.

 

[TedMac]

I agree. I even thought starting this thread was overkill on the subject. :blushing: Now that Florida won't release autopsy results & other info due to the gag order - to me that is pretty big. Namus says that dentals are available - which logically would mean that dentals did not rule out Heather.

I pray that the world will know what those two did to Heather - that Tammy will be totally exposed for what she is and most of all PEACE and JUSTICE for the Elvis family.

Also justice for the little princess (whoever she is) left by the road wrapped in Disney sheets and a pink robe.

BBM Amen!

 

[Foxfire]

Quote Originally Posted by Madeleine74 View Post
The inclusion of MM sheets does not provide me with any further information on the ID of the remains. IF the Moorer family were the only ones who had Disney & MM themed sheets then I'd think it's probably her. But given the location of the remains and the fact that a major industry and brand is located nearby, which happens to sell tons of merch, that gives me pause. I really don't know and won't know until or unless it's announced. But bottomline, for me "inconclusive" is not a positive ID. It certainly would not hold up in court.

I've never heard of any case where another jurisdiction and their resources were used so that the defense wouldn't be able to claim the remains might not be the victim.

It seems LE doesn’t know who these remains are. For me that's not an indication it's Heather; the inability to make a conclusive ID does not equal "therefore it must be Heather."

[/B]
BBM I haven't heard of that either. But, this case is not like most. Most cases I have read about have not had inconclusive DNA results or at least had it announced as inconclusive.

You are correct that this may not be Heather. I originally thought that she was buried somewhere in SC, but now I am not so sure. I initially didn't believe that the trash bag of bones was her. However, when I read that the body was wrapped in homemade Mickey Mouse sheets...

I agree. I even thought starting this thread was overkill on the subject. :blushing: Now that Florida won't release autopsy results & other info due to the gag order - to me that is pretty big. Namus says that dentals are available - which logically would mean that dentals did not rule out Heather.

I pray that the world will know what those two did to Heather - that Tammy will be totally exposed for what she is and most of all PEACE and JUSTICE for the Elvis family.

Also justice for the little princess (whoever she is) left by the road wrapped in Disney sheets and a pink robe.

[/B]

BBM I Agree.

[/B]

BBM Amen!

<BBM for Focus>

Originally Posted by nrbc View Post
This quote was written by TM above a picture of her daughter. If this lady made homemade Disney items (including pillowcases) for TM, I wonder if she made homemade Disney sheets like the one found with the unidentified body in this thread? Sorry if this has been brought up but I just came across this again when I was going through pics of SM & TM's family, trips, house and Disney Themed Camper:

See the banners in this picture? A very good friend I met through Dis made these. She has made the kids t shirts, pillowcases, etc over the years. She is fantastic and the attention to detail is the best I've ever seen. If you need personalized Disney stuff let me know and I will give you her information. She is the best!

Here's TM's Disney Dream Cruise thread from October 2012:

RE: <snipped>

Originally Posted by Madeleine74; But given the location of the remains and the fact that a major industry and brand is located nearby, which happens to sell tons of merch,

The info that the mickey mouse sheet was Homemade(unique), negates this line of thinking, imo..

HE's case, due to the tremendous amount of awareness created by her family and the community, was/is very high profile. Imo, the likely missing char of the broken vase(homemade mickey mouse sheet) would have never been tied to this case if not for this awareness compounded by main stream news and social media...


http://www.waterburyobserver.org/node/402
Shattered - The Seven Year Search For Billy Smolinski Jr.

Picture the murder of Billy Smolinski as a crystal vase. ...It would take a master craftsman to cobble that broken vase back together, but what if the glass is just left on the floor?...

Picture the murder of Billy Smolinski as a crystal vase. Hold it in your hands. Spin it around. Now drop it on the kitchen floor and watch it shatter into a thousand pieces. Each shard of glass represents a clue into who killed Billy on August 24th, 2004. When patched together the vase reveals the gruesome truth of who murdered Billy, and why. The vase points to the spot Billy is buried in the Naugatuck Valley.

In the best of circumstances it would take a master craftsman to cobble that broken vase back together, but what if the glass is left on the floor for weeks, for months, for seven years? Glass gets kicked around into the living room, the dining room and gets jammed into the rubber soles of your shoes and is transported into the yard, into town, and across state borders. You send investigators into each room to collect glass, but shockingly they refuse to share what they gather with the other investigators. With ego and selfishness erupting all around you, what are the chances of ever getting that vase glued back together?

Welcome to the real-life investigation into the murder of Billy Smolinski Jr..

 

[carbuff]

If the remains were Heather & LE knew it was Heather, then why would the TX forensic lab and resources be utilized to try to determine the identity of the remains? That would be a waste of another jurisdiction's resources and time. I really don't think those kind of games are played, where remains are sent around, but the originating jurisdiction knows (which would be based on their own testing) who the remains are.

The indication to me is that an ID of the remains has not been able to be made and a better/more extensive forensic lab with experts is needed to assist in making this determination.

And, if the remains were already determined to be Heather, why would the state be unable to allow Heather's remains to be released to her family for burial? All the evidence would have been collected, photographs taken, xrays taken, DNA extracted. There would be no reason to hold on to remains once those remains were identified and properly examined. The remains themselves are not ever brought into a courtroom.

No, but the remains do have to be made available to the defense for their own testing, should they wish to do so.

On the whole I agree with your assessment. I'd just add that it isn't at all uncommon for a tentative ID to be withheld pending confirmation by further testing. We see it all the time in the Unidentified forums.There might or might not be an announcement of a pending identification. And it's usually the jurisdiction with the remains that is responsible for the testing.

The testing does seem to have been expedited; usually we'd be waiting two or three years for two rounds of testing to be completed.

 

[Ghostwheel]

I've never heard of any case where another jurisdiction and their resources were used so that the defense wouldn't be able to claim the remains might not be the victim.

It seems LE doesn’t know who these remains are. For me that's not an indication it's Heather; the inability to make a conclusive ID does not equal "therefore it must be Heather."

And the inability to make a conclusive ID does not equal "It is not Heather." If it is NOT Heather, no gag order for that case would be in effect. There would be no reason not to divulge that they have confirmed it is not Heather. Even when the remains were found in Clermont, FL, the article said "Not likely to be Heather Elvis". No one can confirm it is Heather, no one can confirm it isn't.

Same place we have been all along.

 

[Madeleine74]

Correct. Without an identification it's purgatory until such time as an announcement is made. Until that time I remain in the category of not knowing or able to guess who these remains are. The MM sheets don't inform me either way. I've always thought that Heather was disposed of in a body of water, something closer to the general MB area or put somewhere way out in the woods or some kind of marshy swamp. A road trip for many hours carrying a corpse all the way to FL (with a possibility of being pulled over by a cop or spotted by someone) seems like a lot of extra trouble and risk when there are thousands of places closer.

 

[IHAVENOCLUE]

Maybe I am reacting emotionally... And I am admittedly not schooled in all things legal.... But...

IMO...Releasing an ID of a body... Or at least releasing ruled out ID's... Should be paramount(tantamount?) to any gag order... Or protection of an investigation...

it seems almost insulting to the deceased to have legalese trump identification...

It reduces us all to potential pawns in the world of legalities...

sorry for the rant....

all JMO...

 

[Madeleine74]

I'm not convinced there's any ID of the remains being withheld as a result of anything, gag order included. I think they just don't have a positive ID and, unlike Interweb posters, the investigators and forensic examiners are not in the business of speculating and putting their personal thoughts about the case out there. This is their job. As professionals I would expect them to stick to their protocols and follow their procedures and do the scientific work as has been requested. IF a positive ID of these remains cannot be made then there will be no 'body' as part of the trial until or unless one is found that can be positively ID'd as being the victim in this case. And if they are able to positively ID these remains then we'll know, eventually.