It can be seen in the autopsy photo where you see the front of her throat. I think it is the one where you can see her chin and open mouth. I can't "cut and paste" on my Mac, but if I can get a link to work I will try to post it.
Head injury vs. strangulation ***WARNING! AUTOPSY PHOTOS!***
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It can be seen in the autopsy photo where you see the front of her throat. I think it is the one where you can see her chin and open mouth. I can't "cut and paste" on my Mac, but if I can get a link to work I will try to post it.
OpenMind4U
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KarenUK
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This is a bit of an unanswerable question I know, but if the head injury occurred first, do you think the person who applied the garotte to her neck thought she was already dead from the blow to the head?
If it had been one of the parents, wouldn't you think they would checked for a pulse then call an ambulance and make up an excuse for the injury - after all, she had no visible sign of a head injury - would they have known for sure it would be fatal?
To me this points more towards Burke, with the parents being involved in the staging later on (but there are other problems with that version of events).
If it had been one of the parents, wouldn't you think they would checked for a pulse then call an ambulance and make up an excuse for the injury - after all, she had no visible sign of a head injury - would they have known for sure it would be fatal?
To me this points more towards Burke, with the parents being involved in the staging later on (but there are other problems with that version of events).
This has been debated, and it's hard to be conclusive, but JB could very well have appeared dead to the untrained eye. The head blow was severe enough that she was certainly knocked unconscious immediately, and she would have collapsed to the floor. There is a very good chance that she could have become comatose, and if that was the case her breathing would have been very shallow- maybe too faint to hear or see. Her body temperature would have dropped as she went into shock, so she would have felt cool to the touch. I can certainly see how someone would have thought she had died.
Of course we know from the autopsy that she was still alive at the time she was strangled, but the person who strangled her may not have known that.
The streak of vomit/mucus on her cheek is a sign that she may have convulsed from the head blow as well. After seeing that, anyone might think she had died when she stopped.
The news every day tells us that parents are capable of unspeakable acts on their children, but I almost want to hope that they did believe she was dead from the head bash rather than that they strangled her to death knowingly.
OpenMind4U
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DD, in addition, would you agree that person(s) who strangled JB wouldn't know if her HEAD or her NECK was broken? If JB was collapsed 'unconscious immediately' without signs of movements, in comotose condition - would these be the signs of broken neck as well?...if yes then JB becomes the 'un-repairable goods' so to speek, the broken 'perfect doll' without shining future, the LOOSER...in the eyes and mind of ONLY ONE person - PATSY!
Therefore, IMO, the strangulation wasn't act of 'mercy'. It was an act of 'cover-up'. But 'cover-up' of what: the broken neck or prior partial strangulation??....
jmo
KarenUK
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I think a head injury and a neck injury in this circumstance would be difficult to confuse - many other posts before me have proven that JB was struck when sat up or standing up due to the angle. JB didnt have have signs of neck/throat trauma associated with strangulation while conscious (no signs of struggle from the autopsy), so it it is safe to say she was unconscious when the strangulation took place - someone hit her on her head and knowing the consequences of the head blow, then applied the garotte (my problem with that scenario was why nobody called an ambulance, but if that was the kind of case I guess we wouldn't all be here talking about it).
As much as I admire Dr Wecht, I strongly believe the head injury came first - and everything from then on was staged
JB did not have a broken neck. On the contrary, her strangulation has been described by forensic specialists as "gentle". Her hyoid bone was not broken. As horrible as the autopsy photos look to us, with the deep red ligature furrow and petechiae, the coroner found no excessive injuries to her neck.
OpenMind4U
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Sorry, but I think you missed my point. I'm well aware that the head injury comes before strangulation. And I do agree that the head injury happens from JB's back (while she was running or standing or sitting). I'm NOT argue on these two points.
Now, regarding strangulation. Yes, autopsy didn't reveal any neck injury. However, the person(s) who actually performed strangulation could be NOT the same person(s) who made the head injury, agree? If so then this person could not know the extand of head injury because nothing was visiable from outside: no blood, no skin damage. Even the person who delivered such a blow wouldn't know if neck was broken or not. So, IMO, one (or more!) of Ramsey's member could make assumption that JR suffers from 'broken neck'. I'm simply trying to make connection for the need of strangulation 'staging'.
Now, in regards of 'partial hanging', I would recommend for you to see the autopsy photo closelyand read a lot of discussion on this topic, especially, the posts made by otg and others
....jmo
OpenMind4U
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DD, please don't take this as the 'argument' (I'm value your knowledge and dedication and have zero desire to be your 'opposition'
...Yes, I know. We all know this because we read AR. I referenced the 'broken neck' as the possible 'assumption' which Ramsey could have...(sorry for confussion...it was poorly written in 'broken' English
.....Here what I found (highlighted by me):
'The hyoid is the U-shaped bone of the neck that is fractured in one-third of all homicides by strangulation. On this basis, postmortem detection of hyoid fracture is relevant to the diagnosis of strangulation. However, since many cases lack a hyoid fracture, the absence of this finding does not exclude strangulation as a cause of death. The reasons why some hyoids fracture and others do not may relate to the nature and magnitude of force applied to the neck, age of the victim, nature of the instrument (ligature or hands) used to strangle, and intrinsic anatomic features of the hyoid bone. We compared the case profiles and xeroradiographic appearance of the hyoids of 20 victims of homicidal strangulation with and without hyoid fracture (n = 10, each). The fractured hyoids occurred in older victims of strangulation (39 +/- 14 years) when compared to the victims with unfractured hyoids (30 +/- 10 years). The age-dependency of hyoid fracture correlated with the degree of ossification or fusion of the hyoid synchondroses. The hyoid was fused in older victims of strangulation (41 +/- 12 years) whereas the unfused hyoids were found in the younger victims (28 +/- 10 years). In addition, the hyoid bone was ossified or fused in 70% of all fractured hyoids, but, only 30% of the unfractured hyoids were fused. The shape of the hyoid bone was also found to differentiate fractured and unfractured hyoids. Fractured hyoids were longer in the anterior-posterior plane and were more steeply sloping when compared with unfractured hyoids. These data indicate that hyoids of strangulation victims, with and without fracture, are distinguished by various indices of shape and rigidity. On this basis, it may be possible to explain why some victims of strangulation do not have fractured hyoid bones.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8934706
So, maybe JB's age is the factor of unbroken hyoid bone and has nothing to do with 'gentle'/'soft' strangulation?
jmo
DD, please don't take this as the 'argument' (I'm value your knowledge and dedication and have zero desire to be your 'opposition'
Yes, I know. We all know this because we read AR. I referenced the 'broken neck' as the possible 'assumption' which Ramsey could have...(sorry for confussion...it was poorly written in 'broken' English
Here what I found (highlighted by me):
'The hyoid is the U-shaped bone of the neck that is fractured in one-third of all homicides by strangulation. On this basis, postmortem detection of hyoid fracture is relevant to the diagnosis of strangulation. However, since many cases lack a hyoid fracture, the absence of this finding does not exclude strangulation as a cause of death. The reasons why some hyoids fracture and others do not may relate to the nature and magnitude of force applied to the neck, age of the victim, nature of the instrument (ligature or hands) used to strangle, and intrinsic anatomic features of the hyoid bone. We compared the case profiles and xeroradiographic appearance of the hyoids of 20 victims of homicidal strangulation with and without hyoid fracture (n = 10, each). The fractured hyoids occurred in older victims of strangulation (39 +/- 14 years) when compared to the victims with unfractured hyoids (30 +/- 10 years). The age-dependency of hyoid fracture correlated with the degree of ossification or fusion of the hyoid synchondroses. The hyoid was fused in older victims of strangulation (41 +/- 12 years) whereas the unfused hyoids were found in the younger victims (28 +/- 10 years). In addition, the hyoid bone was ossified or fused in 70% of all fractured hyoids, but, only 30% of the unfractured hyoids were fused. The shape of the hyoid bone was also found to differentiate fractured and unfractured hyoids. Fractured hyoids were longer in the anterior-posterior plane and were more steeply sloping when compared with unfractured hyoids. These data indicate that hyoids of strangulation victims, with and without fracture, are distinguished by various indices of shape and rigidity. On this basis, it may be possible to explain why some victims of strangulation do not have fractured hyoid bones.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8934706
So, maybe JB's age is the factor of unbroken hyoid bone and has nothing to do with 'gentle'/'soft' strangulation?
jmo
I have also read that the hyoid bone does not always break in child strangulation victims. However, the forensic specialist looked at more than that. These are people who have seen the dissected necks of other victims, and JB's strangulation has been described by some as "gentle" so I feel they based it on more than the unbroken hyoid.
OpenMind4U
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...while discussing the strangulation, partial strangulation and broken neck, here is another interesting article for your review (bbm):
This will explain un-broken neck during partial hanging/strangulation (which IMO what happens in JB case). Again, JMO.
http://ash2.wikkii.com/wiki/Ligature_strangulation
This will explain un-broken neck during partial hanging/strangulation (which IMO what happens in JB case). Again, JMO.
Heyya OpenMind4U
ty for the link.
Very interesting, albeit gruesome reference links as well, off that particular page.
link 11, has an illustration of partial hanging off bed post: http://forensics4fiction.com/tag/partially-suspended-hanging/
otg
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There are so many factors that are in play when speaking about whether or not the hyoid should fracture during strangulation.
Besides age, gender also is a factor to a certain degree because of the difference in size and the rate of ossification between males and females. Besides these factors, the general shape of a person’s hyoid can vary a great deal due to the length of time over which it is formed. Some flare out at their ends more than others, making them more susceptible to pressure from the sides. Some have more straight horns (greater cornua) as opposed to slightly curved. Race can also be noted as a factor. Even in older adults when it is considered to be one bone, the center is actually still a fibrous and somewhat flexible joint.
According to this article in the Journal of Forensic Siences, “The reasons why some hyoids fracture and others do not may relate to the nature and magnitude of force applied to the neck, age of the victim, nature of the instrument (ligature or hands) used to strangle, and intrinsic anatomic features of the hyoid bone.”
Indeed often in cases where the victim’s hyoid is completely ossified and he/she is manually strangled with a great deal of force, the hyoid will simply not be fractured. (Although in some cases, the fracture is not evident but is found after stereoscopic radiography or blue staining with toluidine.) So while a fractured hyoid is most always an indication of strangulation, It is not always found when strangulation has occurred.
As for other neck injuries, like DeeDee stated, no other neck trauma (aside from the obvious ligature furrow) was found internally by Dr. Meyer. From the AR:
Besides age, gender also is a factor to a certain degree because of the difference in size and the rate of ossification between males and females. Besides these factors, the general shape of a person’s hyoid can vary a great deal due to the length of time over which it is formed. Some flare out at their ends more than others, making them more susceptible to pressure from the sides. Some have more straight horns (greater cornua) as opposed to slightly curved. Race can also be noted as a factor. Even in older adults when it is considered to be one bone, the center is actually still a fibrous and somewhat flexible joint.
According to this article in the Journal of Forensic Siences, “The reasons why some hyoids fracture and others do not may relate to the nature and magnitude of force applied to the neck, age of the victim, nature of the instrument (ligature or hands) used to strangle, and intrinsic anatomic features of the hyoid bone.”
Indeed often in cases where the victim’s hyoid is completely ossified and he/she is manually strangled with a great deal of force, the hyoid will simply not be fractured. (Although in some cases, the fracture is not evident but is found after stereoscopic radiography or blue staining with toluidine.) So while a fractured hyoid is most always an indication of strangulation, It is not always found when strangulation has occurred.
As for other neck injuries, like DeeDee stated, no other neck trauma (aside from the obvious ligature furrow) was found internally by Dr. Meyer. From the AR:
.
Mama2JML
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From the AR:
If the head blow was inflicted prior to (45 minutes-2 hours, according to Kolar?) strangulation, then why was there "no evidence of inflammatory infiltrate or organization of the hemorrhage."? :waitasec:
"Brain: Sections of the areas of contusion disclose disrupted blood vessels of the cortex with surrounding hemorrhage. There is no evidence of inflammatory infiltrate or organization of the hemorrhage. Subarachnoid hemorrhage is also identified. Cortical neurons are surrounded by clear halos, as are glial cells."
If the head blow was inflicted prior to (45 minutes-2 hours, according to Kolar?) strangulation, then why was there "no evidence of inflammatory infiltrate or organization of the hemorrhage."? :waitasec:
questfortrue
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Like UKGuy says, the coroner only writes out what he observed, and doesnt translate this into details for a lay person to grasp. Because Ive no medical or neuro-chemistry background, my interpretations of some of the autopsy could be wrong. But Ill share some of the items Ive researched. (BTW, once I checked on that inflammatory infiltrate response, and in other parts of the body the Internet sources referenced about an hour. I would think that there are other factors which influence this timing though.)
As far as no inflammatory infiltrate or organization of the hemorrhage present, my understanding is that this doesnt necessarily correlate to the timing between the brain injury and the strangulation. From Kolars book, the experts conclusions regarding timing were based primarily on the swelling of the brain and neurological changes to the brain cells, not on an inflammatory infiltrate response:
The presence of cerebral edema, swelling of the brain, suggested that JonBenét had survived for some period of time after receiving the blow to her head. Blood from the injury slowly began to fill the cavity of the skull and began to build up pressure on her brain. As pressure increased, swelling was causing the medulla of the brain to push through the foramen magnum, the narrow opening at the base of the skull. Dr. Rorke estimated that it would have taken an hour or so for the cerebral edema to develop, but that this swelling had not yet caused JonBenéts death. Necrosis, neurological changes to the brain cells, indicated a period of survival after the blow that could have ranged from between forty-five (45) minutes and two (2) hours. (Kolar Kindle 899-902)
In another thread there was a description of capillary congestion. That is not really a capillary block, more like a reference to the amount of blood flow into the capillaries. Hyperemia is an increase of blood flow of the capillaries in the lower layers of the skin. It occurs with any skin injury, infection, or inflammation and has many causes and types.
In the course of trying to understand more (and I wish we had a doctor or two in the house), I also researched evidence of rape or unwanted vaginal intrusion. When an exam is performed to establish rape, doctors of course look for seminal fluid. But they also note other injuries like bruises and hyperemia. Because of the evidence of hyperemia in the posterior right of JBs vaginal vault, I was confused. I still dont know if this occurred from the paintbrush. However, then I came across two discussions of hyperemia after vaginal intrusion and discovered that hyperemia can be found from 1 day to several days after an assault. It may be that the hyperemia was caused that night, or it could be evidence of an injury dating 24-72 hours prior to JBs death. If the source of the hyperemia were digital and caused as long as 72 hours prior (and I make no claim at all to know), then it might lead to conjecture/perception of something which happened at the R party the evening of the 23rd.
Wishing we had access to the coroners notes. But since we dont, Im left like everybody else wondering about specific details of the injuries.
MHO
Mama2JML
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Thank you, questfortrue...
According to Kolar (FF p. 65-66), Spitz sequenced the injuries sustained by JonBenét as follows:
According to Kolar (FF p. 65-66), Spitz sequenced the injuries sustained by JonBenét as follows:
1. Bruising & abrasions on the front and sides of the throat from initial constriction.
2. Fingernail gouges/abrasions on the throat; defensive wounds.
3. Skull fracture, from blow to the head with the Maglite or similar object.
4. Vaginal abrasions, bleeding, & (acute) inflammation/vascular congestion from insertion of the paintbrush.
5. Final ligature strangulation from tightening of 'the garrote'.
2. Fingernail gouges/abrasions on the throat; defensive wounds.
3. Skull fracture, from blow to the head with the Maglite or similar object.
4. Vaginal abrasions, bleeding, & (acute) inflammation/vascular congestion from insertion of the paintbrush.
5. Final ligature strangulation from tightening of 'the garrote'.
questfortrue
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~RBBM~
Meyer reported "abrasions" in the area around the ligature, in addition to petechiae. He doesn't attribute them to "fingernail gouges," so I do have doubts about the claim of gouges. ST in IRMI: The experts noted no blood or skin tissue beneath the fingernails, as they often see when a victim has fought an attacker. However, DNA can be deposited by someone merely dragging their nails across their own cheek. moo
DeDee
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Oct 01, 2002
Nearly all of the medical experts who have seen the autopsy report agree that this was not an accidental death. JonBenet Ramsey was deliberately and cruelly murdered.
JonBenet was strangled, not once, says Smit, but twice, with an intricately-made device known as a garrote, which had to have been made by the killer during the murder. Why? Because the garrote had hair intertwined with it JonBenet's hair.
"It's a device, says Smit, that was not left there for show. Whoever killed JonBenet used the garrote to strangle her.
Smit believes that JonBenet was fighting for her life. There were marks that look a lot like scratches on her neck. "JonBenet was trying to take that off of her neck," says Smit. "She did have her own DNA under her fingernails. She was struggling with that garrote. Whoever was there with her knew that she was struggling. This is a very vicious strangulation."
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/searching-the-detective/
Nearly all of the medical experts who have seen the autopsy report agree that this was not an accidental death. JonBenet Ramsey was deliberately and cruelly murdered.
JonBenet was strangled, not once, says Smit, but twice, with an intricately-made device known as a garrote, which had to have been made by the killer during the murder. Why? Because the garrote had hair intertwined with it JonBenet's hair.
"It's a device, says Smit, that was not left there for show. Whoever killed JonBenet used the garrote to strangle her.
Smit believes that JonBenet was fighting for her life. There were marks that look a lot like scratches on her neck. "JonBenet was trying to take that off of her neck," says Smit. "She did have her own DNA under her fingernails. She was struggling with that garrote. Whoever was there with her knew that she was struggling. This is a very vicious strangulation."
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/searching-the-detective/
DeDee
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