TX - Heidi Broussard, 33 Found Deceased, & Margo Carey, 2 weeks, Found Alive Austin, 12 Dec 2019 #7

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves
Status
Not open for further replies.
I suppose the normal time limits for holding her on the murder charge don't apply now that she is detained already on the kidnapping and tampering charges? So can they take as long as they need/want? Or, is that not true because she has been transferred to Austin jurisdiction?

She has been charged already on 3 charges, but not yet for murder. Texas had no statute of limitations for murder and several other serious crimes. They can take their time in charging her. With $600,000 bond, she is probably staying in there until they do/the other trials. JMO. I'm not an attorney. Texas gives 180 days to begin a trial, I believe.
 
CG wouldn't have had to pay child support though, if a paternity test established he wasn't the biological father, right?

I think it depends on your state. There are many states with strange "dad by default" laws that can force a non-biological parent to pay child support even if a paternity test establishes he is not the father. Many are the result of the mother naming an individual to receive welfare benefits. Here's an example in Texas.

https://nypost.com/2017/07/23/man-ordered-to-pay-65k-in-child-support-for-kid-who-isnt-his/
 
Maybe she did plan to take Margo from the hospital and that was part of the reason she was there (and possibly making phone/Facetime calls to people saying Margo was hers in what seems like premature timing), but the security measures were more of an obstacle that she thought they would be so she had to wait.
I imagine the security measures were an obstacle for her. We have VERY strict security measure at my hospital and it's my belief that most every hospital in the US has equally strict security measures. If they don't, they're really asking for trouble.
 
Here's a very interesting article. There's much more information at the link.

CODE PINK


“We use a multilayered approach,” says Chicarello. This includes prior planning, physical barriers, electronic aides, and ongoing training and education of staff and parents alike. At Brigham and Women’s, security starts in the lobby where admittance to the maternity ward is gained only after signing in and using a specific elevator. Hospital personnel wear specific nursery badges, and they obtain access to the ward by key card.

The hospital also uses various forms of technology including closed circuit TV monitors, silent “panic” buttons at the nurse’s stations, and electronic wrist/ankle bracelets for the babies.

Code Pink is the almost universally adopted code word signaling that an abduction is taking place. There are as many as 20,000 abductions by family members in the United States each year.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I imagine the security measures were an obstacle for her. We have VERY strict security measure at my hospital and it's my belief that most every hospital in the US has equally strict security measures. If they don't, they're really asking for trouble.

I can’t help but think her wheels were churning looking for a way to run out with a baby. She was to the point of desperation. Jmo
 
Thankful that so far nobody has bailed her out. Didn't her Landlord bail her out on her other charges? IIRC? Maybe once she is slapped with Capitol Murder they will take DP off the table, spare a Trial and off she goes for all her remaining days.
I don't think we need worry that MF will ever make bail again in her lifetime. Once she is charged in the death of HB, she won't be eligible for bail release (assuming the charge is capital murder). I hope that happens next week.
 
Has anyone discussed the fact that maybe MF didn’t pretend to be pregnant UNTIL 12/1 - when the registry was created? Maybe she hadn’t seen landlord in months...all of their communication was via text? Then he says he’s going to kick her out and she scrambles for something outlandish. The plan starts unfolding.

So in this crazy scenario HB isn’t expecting MF to come into town with her newborn (or at all?). I can’t imagine MF would be in delivery room faking 9 mos pregnancy?
I think there is confusion that the registry was created on 12/1. That just seems to be the fake "due date" that MF listed on the registry. Not the day it was created.
 
Here's a very interesting article. There's much more information at the link.

CODE PINK


“We use a multilayered approach,” says Chicarello. This includes prior planning, physical barriers, electronic aides, and ongoing training and education of staff and parents alike. At Brigham and Women’s, security starts in the lobby where admittance to the maternity ward is gained only after signing in and using a specific elevator. Hospital personnel wear specific nursery badges, and they obtain access to the ward by key card.

The hospital also uses various forms of technology including closed circuit TV monitors, silent “panic” buttons at the nurse’s stations, and electronic wrist/ankle bracelets for the babies.

Code Pink is the almost universally adopted code word signaling that an abduction is taking place. There are as many as 20,000 abductions by family members in the United States each year.
That last sentence means....? That must be outside of hospitals, and then mothers or fathers who are not the custodial parent abducting the babies? Or not asking permission before taking the kids out of state, thus breaking agreements? That's an eyeopening number !
 
I don't think we need worry that MF will ever make bail again in her lifetime. Once she is charged in the death of HB, she won't be eligible for bail release (assuming the charge is capital murder). I hope that happens next week.

yeah, I think her baby snatching days are behind her. Murder.......I’m not so sure of. Depends how she chooses to do her time. Moo

can’t wait to see if she has any support at her court appearance. Idk how any one could stand up for her, including her family. Moo
 
I suppose the normal time limits for holding her on the murder charge don't apply now that she is detained already on the kidnapping and tampering charges? So can they take as long as they need/want? Or, is that not true because she has been transferred to Austin jurisdiction?

She was booked in Austin under different charges and has not been arraigned on those charges. She's not going anywhere.

(Her charges in Harris County/Houston are over -- she appeared in court, pled guilty, and financial penalties assessed).
 
Here's a very interesting article. There's much more information at the link.

CODE PINK


“We use a multilayered approach,” says Chicarello. This includes prior planning, physical barriers, electronic aides, and ongoing training and education of staff and parents alike. At Brigham and Women’s, security starts in the lobby where admittance to the maternity ward is gained only after signing in and using a specific elevator. Hospital personnel wear specific nursery badges, and they obtain access to the ward by key card.

The hospital also uses various forms of technology including closed circuit TV monitors, silent “panic” buttons at the nurse’s stations, and electronic wrist/ankle bracelets for the babies.

Code Pink is the almost universally adopted code word signaling that an abduction is taking place. There are as many as 20,000 abductions by family members in the United States each year.
Abductors are not always strangers. Some abductions are by noncustodial family members, friends or the abductor could even be the mother herself if she has an open case with CPS and is deemed unfit to take the baby home.
 
Thanks so much for this extremely helpful overview!

We are seeing Mc’Naughten rule play out in AL and it can be tricky to understand IMO. I was confused about what you said about Mc’Naughten rule vs Irresistible Impulse Test in TX. Does this mean either can be employed or is current practice to use Mc’Naughten rule exclusively in TX?

I seem to remember the other night either you or @BeeGirl were discussing the idea that if premeditation is proven that working an 'NGRI defense' is not possible or difficult for the Defendant. Is this true as an absolute?

Based on the very limited information we have about MF actions regarding HB and Baby Margo there do seem to be any number of possibly premeditated acts involved. So, assuming LE and the DA will find additional examples as the investigation moves forward, is it possible that an 'NGRI defense' won't be possible for HF?

Thanks @gitana1 and @BeeGirl for explaining these complicated but important issues!

You’ll have to excuse me if @gitana1 already answered this (I just woke up from a post-wrapping nap and haven’t caught up to all I missed!) but no, premeditation is not a hard rule, but it certainly helps. As @gitana1 explained earlier, the biggest test is that you have a mental illness and that you don’t know right from wrong.

Were I the prosecutor, I would use the pre-meditated acts (and later steps used to throw investigators off track) to prove that she took those actions because she knew what she was doing was wrong. Imagine it as a (super oversimplified) cross-examination of MF on the stand:

“Okay, MF, shortly after you learned Heidi was pregnant, you claimed that you were pregnant also, is that correct?”

“Yes.”

“And you did that so no one would suspect that Margo wasn’t your baby after you brought her home, correct?”

“ Yes.”

“Because you knew that if you were caught stealing Margo, you would be punished, correct?”

“Yes.”

“And you knew you would be punished because it is wrong to kidnap?”

If we got a yes here, she is in trouble, because she is proving that she took those steps because she knew that what she did was wrong and was actively trying to cover it up. That’s how premeditation can help kill an insanity defense.

The oversimplified type examination steps modified above were actually taken in Texas to poke holes in Andrea Yates’ insanity defense. (Link here for the curious).
 
Last edited:
OMG!! I'm watching the Tim Miller interview that was transcribed on here by someone and Tim talked to Magen and the things he said that she told him were things CrimeOnline posted about speaking with some friend that was close to Heidi. CrimeOnline claims it wasn't Magen but seriously everything she said to Tim was exact quotes were given in that article by a friend they spoke to. Did anyone else notice that?
 
Here's a very interesting article. There's much more information at the link.

CODE PINK


“We use a multilayered approach,” says Chicarello. This includes prior planning, physical barriers, electronic aides, and ongoing training and education of staff and parents alike. At Brigham and Women’s, security starts in the lobby where admittance to the maternity ward is gained only after signing in and using a specific elevator. Hospital personnel wear specific nursery badges, and they obtain access to the ward by key card.

The hospital also uses various forms of technology including closed circuit TV monitors, silent “panic” buttons at the nurse’s stations, and electronic wrist/ankle bracelets for the babies.

Code Pink is the almost universally adopted code word signaling that an abduction is taking place. There are as many as 20,000 abductions by family members in the United States each year.
When I had my first daughter things seemed more lax, but with my youngest who was born in the last year, she was pretty much immediately fitted with an ankle bracelet that would sound an alarm if she was removed from the hospital wearing it, or if it was tampered with. The very last thing they did before wheeling us out of there upon discharge was to remove it.
 
When I had my first daughter things seemed more lax, but with my youngest who was born in the last year, she was pretty much immediately fitted with an ankle bracelet that would sound an alarm if she was removed from the hospital wearing it, or if it was tampered with. The very last thing they did before wheeling us out of there upon discharge was to remove it.
They should wear those until they're at least 20 IMO
 
@BeeGirl, thank you for the very informative article on a complicated topic!

It’s Crazy

Quote from article:

The insanity defense exists because the intention to commit an illegal act is a fundamental element of criminal conduct. English law has recognized for more than four hundred years that children and “lunatics” lack the mental capacity to form a criminal intent. The question has always been how to limit the defense so that every criminal can’t claim to have acted under the spell of a delusion and go free. By the middle of the nineteenth century, a test was in place that in some form prevails today: A defendant was insane if he did not know the nature and quality of his act or if he did know it, he did not know it was wrong. Around fifty years ago, there was a swing away from the right-wrong test toward a mental illness standard: If a criminal act was the result of a mental disease or defect (even an irresistible impulse), the defendant was not guilty by reason of insanity.

This proved to be the loophole that everyone had been afraid of. When John Hinckley was found not guilty by reason of insanity for attempting to assassinate Ronald Reagan, the mental illness test went out the window and federal law and many states returned to a right-wrong standard. Texas has one of the nation’s highest bars for a successful insanity defense. Andrea Yates’s lawyers had to show both that she suffered from a mental illness or defect (no problem there) and that she did not know that her conduct was wrong. But she did know. Toward the end of her confession, Sergeant Mehl asked her, “Okay, you had told me earlier that, that you’d been having these thoughts about hurting your children for up to two years. Is that, is that about right?”

“Yes,” Yates said.
“Okay, is there anything that happened two years ago that, that made you, that you believe led you to have these thoughts?”
“I realized that it was time to be punished.”
“And what do you need to be punished for?”
“For not being a good mother.”
“How did you see drowning your five children as a way to be punished? Did you want the criminal justice system to punish you, or did you—”
“Yes.” There it was: For prosecutors, this was a clear admission by Andrea Yates that she knew it was wrong to kill. The square peg of justice had just been hammered into the round hole of mental illness.

The insanity defense had little chance of prevailing in Yates’s trial. “The State could say its whole case in one sentence: ‘She knew it was wrong,'” says Wendell Odom, a Houston attorney who helped defend Yates. “Our side of the case was much more complicated. We had to explain: ‘If you know something is wrong but you’re delusional, that’s not the same thing as being sane.'” Statistically, an insanity plea is a losing proposition, which is one reason it is used in less than 1 percent of criminal cases. The success rate is around 25 percent, but this is misleading. Most successful pleas involve lesser crimes, and the state doesn’t contest the insanity defense in those cases. “If Andrea Yates had stolen a loaf of bread, she’d be in Vernon [site of a state hospital for the criminally insane] right now,” Odom says. But, of course, she didn’t steal a loaf of bread; she killed five people.

The problem isn’t that the case was in the criminal justice system; it’s the way the justice system works. Here’s what should be done to fix it:

Change the law so that the right-wrong test is not the ultimate determinant of sanity in all cases.

“It’s a bizarre standard,” says Dr. Lucy Puryear, a Houston psychiatrist who specializes in postpartum depression and testified for the defense in the Yates case. “To define insanity so narrowly—did she know her conduct was wrong—overlooks the larger issue of, What do you mean by ‘knowing’? While she was drowning the children, she thought what she was doing was right, even though she might have known it was illegal. I don’t blame the jury or even the prosecutors. They were looking at her conduct through the wrong lens.” The exact wording of a revised test for sanity is something for experts in criminal law to determine, but this ought to be the starting point: Severe, documented mental illness that loosens one’s grasp on reality ought to trump “knowledge” of right and wrong.

Tell juries what happens to defendants after a verdict of not guilty by reason of insanity.

One reason insanity pleas usually lose is that jurors worry that a defendant might get sent to a state mental facility, win the sympathies of her doctors, prove to their satisfaction that she is cured, and be discharged to commit more crimes. Rather than take the risk, a jury will take the safer course of sending someone like Andrea Yates to prison. State law prohibits telling jurors what really happens if a patient who has committed a violent felony is recommended for release from the mental hospital: The trial judge has the ultimate say about the case for as long as the sentence would have lasted if the jury had found the defendant guilty (life in the case of Andrea Yates), and the judge can send the perpetrator back to the mental hospital. If the jury had known that Andrea Yates could have spent the rest of her life in a state mental hospital, they might have been more inclined to find her not guilty by reason of insanity.

Allow juries to reach a verdict of insane but guilty.

This alternative would permit juries to hand down a sentence requiring confinement for a fixed period, but at least the defendant would be in a mental hospital instead of a prison.
 
In a way it is sad that this creature/person appears to have been in dire need of some “help”, yet no one noticed. It really makes me wonder, is/was there anyone in her life besides her fictitious baby daddy and now deceased bestie?
None of us know her but seem to agree the decline in her appearance is startling. Was it so gradual people around her didn’t notice or did they choose to not notice.
I realize her atty thought she was normal but I don’t think he really got to know her, plus she was well into her faux pregnancy during her last meetings with him.
 
Maybe she did plan to take Margo from the hospital and that was part of the reason she was there (and possibly making phone/Facetime calls to people saying Margo was hers in what seems like premature timing), but the security measures were more of an obstacle that she thought they would be so she had to wait.
Does anyone know where Margo was born?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
125
Guests online
2,669
Total visitors
2,794

Forum statistics

Threads
602,265
Messages
18,137,799
Members
231,285
Latest member
NanaKate321
Back
Top