I can't find a hole in this theory...

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All a Grand Jury needs is probable cause. So. One step at a time. I'm not out to send John to the chair. My goal is to put him on trial and let him and his lawyers mount a defense based on legal procedure rather than media manipulation. I'm convinced a good prosecutor could get a conviction, but it will be a battle royale for sure, as you say.

The intruder theory is a well worn device used in the past by a great many criminals who wound up in jail nevertheless, despite all the efforts of their lawyers to plead reasonable doubt. When you have to fall back on reasonable doubt you are in deep trouble. Prosecutors are used to such arguments and fully prepared to deal with them.

Hurray!!! Finally, we are on the same page! 100% agree! Get GJ, get ALL (new and old!) evidences and interviews - and let's go to the trial!!! At that point, no intruder theory will have any legs!...

So, DocG, are you IN or OUT to start persuing the idea to expose DA criminal corruption activities first?! If you're IN - I'll prepare the list of all DA criminal activities from the day one of an active investigation until today, in chronological order. Your call now, my dear:fence:!
 
I don't think you fully grasp John's situation. A Grand Jury indicts on the basis of probable cause, reasonable doubt doesn't apply. While you and others, including Kolar, may have convinced yourselves that Burke molested and murdered his sister, I think it reasonable to assume that most people would find the father a far more likely suspect, especially where sexual assault is involved. So by the standard of probable cause, a Grand Jury would have every reason to indict John.

Once John is put on trial, he would have every opportunity to point the finger at Patsy or Burke -- if he dared, because that could easily backfire. Patsy is gone but Burke is still with us, and his testimony in that regard would be crucial. My guess is that John's lawyers would never allow him to take such a tack, as it would destroy his credibility. If put on trial, John would most likely steer away from either Patsy or Burke and fall back on the intruder theory. And then it would be up to the prosecution to prove beyond reasonable doubt that no intruder was present. If you read Kolar, or Steve Thomas or my blog or any number of other sources, you'll see that this is NOT difficult to prove.

Doc - This is a sensible pattern of thought as to the most likely methods John Ramsey would prefer to use in a courtroom. He is all about how marvelous he is - in all aspects of his life, and pulls no punches in seeking glorification of himself. And he's so good at it, using his oh-so-quiet and humble demeanor. I think Alex Hunter justified one of his fauxpas by saying, "You catch more flies with honey than vinegar". I agree John would try to protect his family and personal image by not being willing to degrade Patsy or Burke. His personal integrity would appear compromised, and that is a no-no.

His lawyers might feel it necessary to toss some dirt into the cesspool of this crime, but John is the one with the bucks and signs the paychecks, so ultimately he has the final authority on the pathways his minions use on his behalf. I agree that John would feel the Intruder aspect would protect him, simply because he sees it that way and would expect everyone else to see it that way: narcissism. However, as you point out, that theory just no longer holds any possible credibility due to the work of some pretty solid authorities.

OpenMind4U - I can tell you are an outstanding, methodical A-Z thinker. Being able to participate in the mathematical maze of partnership Dominoes shows you 'grew a brain' long ago! :yes: It would be more than triple awesome if your plan could begin and work it's way through to opening up a new door of charges against those who deserve to have to answer for their actions.

But, sadly I don't think there are enough people with as much integrity and fight as it would take to 'undo' the injustices in those offices. Because that degree of integrity and fight would have to be accompanied by enough money to burn through every wall that would go up to guard that chain of previous powers.

You know about the domino effect that happens when the game is not played mathematically, but is set up to achieve a display of the effect of gravity. That's what would happen if the former DA has to be the first to fall, and it would work it's way up through officials and businesses that could afford whatever sabotage it would take to break the chain.

I think our only hope of seeing resolve of this case is to look for ways to support any action or decision the current BPD authorities can take to look at any new documents or leads that would give them open avenues of leading to calling a GJ, ie: Kolar's current 20 page Theory of Prosecution, which seems to be stalled. Here's a few lines from an article posted online on July 19, 2012 by Justin Adams, News Editor for 7NEWS:

'Boulder police took the investigation back from the district attorney's office in 2009 saying they would apply new technology and expertise in hopes of solving the case.
At the time, newly elected District Attorney Stan Garnett agreed that police should lead the investigation again.
In 2009 Boulder police formed a task force to provide ideas and direction for the investigation, but a spokeswoman told 7NEWS the task force is not an ongoing group.'


From the same article, Stan Garnett made this statment:
"Possible leads come in on a regular basis and the Boulder police should investigate these leads. I, in consultation with my staff, will make any filing decision based on the evidence."


The link address for this article and others listed on the page is:
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/31286372/detail.html

I sent off an email to Mr. Adams asking for a public update on BPD's consideration of Kolar's document. His email address is available through the article. You could do the same. That would be a solid media contact.

:justice::justice::justice::justice:
 
Does kolar give any hints at all that he believes someone was or had been molestng burke? Every behavior sign mentioned points to it, imo. The doctor noticed signs and nothing was followed up. Jonbenet was the worst injustice, but ignoring the plight of a surviving child was another one, even if he did inflict the head bash. Imo, Kolar exposes this as well as the murder going unpunished.

You always have such an interesting questions! Thank you for it! You see, IMO, Kolar did NOT point the finger to PARTICULAR Ramsey. Granted, he exposed BR behavior which wasn't addressed properly before. To me, Kolar's book is about revealing ALL LIES, on all fronts, of every Ramsey.

We must give credit to Kolar, I believe he exposed JR's lies more than any other books did! Kolar didn't stated his theory but somehow, majority of us assumes that his theory is BDI. I don't think so. He simply opened the horizon to more possibilities!!! I believe that JBR and BR medical records would give BPD the needed answers to move forward. Like I said many times before, Kolar's behavior flags is the key to follow. And JR has too many of them as well as BR! I'm fully agree, if BDI - Burke is the victim of Ramsey's parenting, no matter how horrible his involvement was or wasn't. JMO
 
You always have such an interesting questions! Thank you for it! You see, IMO, Kolar did NOT point the finger to PARTICULAR Ramsey. Granted, he exposed BR behavior which wasn't addressed properly before. To me, Kolar's book is about revealing ALL LIES, on all fronts, of every Ramsey.

We must give credit to Kolar, I believe he exposed JR's lies more than any other books did! Kolar didn't stated his theory but somehow, majority of us assumes that his theory is BDI. I don't think so. He simply opened the horizon to more possibilities!!! I believe that JBR and BR medical records would give BPD the needed answers to move forward. Like I said many times before, Kolar's behavior flags is the key to follow. And JR has too many of them as well as BR! I'm fully agree, if BDI - Burke is the victim of Ramsey's parenting, no matter how horrible his involvement was or wasn't. JMO

Positively agree - great assessment. And yes, the BPD, now in charge of reviewing evidence to lead to moving the case forward, should pull their "task force" together to decide how they will approach the current DA to move on getting any formerly sealed records unsealed. I would think those unsealed records would then be able to be used to look for "new evidence and leads" by a GJ!
 
Positively agree - great assessment. And yes, the BPD, now in charge of reviewing evidence to lead to moving the case forward, should pull their "task force" together to decide how they will approach the current DA to move on getting any formerly sealed records unsealed. I would think those unsealed records would then be able to be used to look for "new evidence and leads" by a GJ!

No fights, agree?...:)...but I believe that Kolar already told us that he did approach the CURRENT DA in 2008 and already 'asked' for releasing the medical records, right?...and what was the outcome from his presentation??!!! Null, zero, zilch (did I spell it right?:)....Do you honestly believe that DA's CULTURE has been changed or will be changed on it's own?!!!....I don't think so...nothing much changed so far since FW letter in 1998....Who do you think shut-off GJ finding in 1999? DA, as FW predicted in 1998. Again, I'm asking to read FW letter again. It's amazing how smart and pro-active FW was. I'm sure he had strong legal advice way back....but I'm trully inspired by his bravety and dedication...TODAY.
 
I'm glad you agree. But no, I'm OUT if your intention is to begin by exposing DA "criminal corruption." The idea is to simplify not complicate this case. It's already overloaded with complications.

LOL...I thought so:)...Believe me, I'm very much familiar with the notion of 'not rocking the boat', just 'simplify'.... I do respect your position. No more 'challenges' from me....:woohoo:
 
Whoa OpenMind - The only way a new GJ will be called is if the DA feels there is evidence that will cause him to consider looking for 'probable cause' for an indictment in the case. There is only one possible way to call for an indictment as a result of BPD reviewing and asking the DA to consider the evidence, and that is to look at John Ramsey as the chargeable suspect in this open murder case.

Kolar's Theory of Prosecution must be based on clear evidence, possibly circumstantial more than direct, but nevertheless, still reason to consider an indictment. No DA will spend another taxpayer dollar going down the avenues you suggest without FIRST feeling there might be reason to do so based on his conviction the case can be prosecuted.

So, we must :fencefall: and determine the DA must consider charging John Ramsey, even if a trial wouldn't end up with a conviction. It's the only way to move this case toward closure.


They only have facts and evidence that may prove that Pasty and Pasty alone was the one that jabbed something into JonBenet's vagina, then pulled that cord tight around her daughters neck till she was dead.

They only have the fibers from John's Israeli shirt on JonBenet crotch and in the crotch of her new panties, and I promise John's defense will claim he put that shirt down the laundry chute Christmas night when they got back from the Whites, and someone must of taken it from the basement, wiped JonBenet down and put it back. Pasty could of done everything to cover up and try to hide what happened to JonBenet and since Pasty is gone it's easy to see where the finger would be pointed.

I don't think any DA is going to put his reputation and job on the line and take on "re-opening" this case all over again with the same evidence that can point to Pasty or both of the Ramseys. We might want that done, but with what they have they won't spending any more time or money. It's a checkmate and John's lawyers know it.
 
I don't think Double Jeopardy comes into play here. That is only in cases where someone has already been tried once already. JR has never been tried in this crime.

I think Linda meant if John was put on trial with what they had, and found not guilty, then new evidence came to light showing him doing all without any doubt, that he couldn't be retried.
 
No, not asking for anything, just thinking out loud about what it would take to lift this investigation from its mordant state.

It would take a confession. I don't see John Ramsey doing that. I don't see Burke Ramsey doing that. He is protected by Colorado criminal statues regarding minors under the age of ten. He missed it by thirty four days.
 
No fights, agree?...:)...but I believe that Kolar already told us that he did approach the CURRENT DA in 2008 and already 'asked' for releasing the medical records, right?...and what was the outcome from his presentation??!!! Null, zero, zilch (did I spell it right?:)....Do you honestly believe that DA's CULTURE has been changed or will be changed on it's own?!!!....I don't think so...nothing much changed so far since FW letter in 1998....Who do you think shut-off GJ finding in 1999? DA, as FW predicted in 1998. Again, I'm asking to read FW letter again. It's amazing how smart and pro-active FW was. I'm sure he had strong legal advice way back....but I'm trully inspired by his bravety and dedication...TODAY.

:blowkiss:OpenMind! Definitely, no fights! We just will never see this case move forward unless Stan Garnett is convinced by SOMEONE that there is enough reason to call in a new GJ. That urging has to come from BPD.

Granted, Kolar has presented, and it has produced nothing, but he is only one guy. The only thing I see rattling up BPD enough is the local media hounding them as to providing the public with their findings of the Theory of Prosecution that Kolar presented in 2011. It is public knowledge that no authorities in Boulder are responding to it. You would think BPD would want to make sure they don't dig themselves in deeper with regard to ineptness in handling this case. :moo:

Doc - Why do you think Kolar's document (Theory of Prosecution) has Burke as the key figure? Even though Kolar led readers to look at his suggestion of Burke's involvement, I cannot see why he would base his Theory of Prosecution around Burke, when he knows full well that John Ramsey is the only possible suspect that could face prosecution at this time.

If Kolar took the time and effort to produce a 20 page Theory, and says flat out that he still has hope of seeing this case come to a resolution, then he surely MUST have something in mind to cause the DA to push past old ideas and look at this case with fresh interest? :dunno:

And, if what we all have to do is wait around for an out-of-court confession, then I guess the Ramseys win, don't they? Again. Victory! :burn:
 
Keep Patsy if you must, keep Burke if you must, but as far as getting a conviction, John is the only one to focus on. He's in this up to his gills regardless of what anyone else did or didn't do.
The evidence points to Patsy being involved as well.
The fiber evidence implicates her as the stager of the 'garrote' scene:
Fibers from the jacket she had been wearing to the Whites' party were found in in locations directly associated with JonBenet's death: in the paint tray, in the neck ligature, on the duct tape, and on the blanket covering the dead body.

What's new is that I have demonstrated that John's story about breaking the window earlier is an alibi. And a blatant lie. To cover the fact that he himself staged the window breakin the night of the crime, an attempt that was never completed and could therefore have given him away. Once it's clear he lied about that, then it should be easy to establish probable cause for indictment.
Even if it was John who broke the window for staging purposes: the stager of the scene needn't necessarily have been the same person who delivered the head blow. Imo both John and Patsy were in the cover-up together.
 
The evidence points to Patsy being involved as well.
The fiber evidence implicates her as the stager of the 'garrote' scene:
Fibers from the jacket she had been wearing to the Whites' party were found in in locations directly associated with JonBenet's death: in the paint tray, in the neck ligature, on the duct tape, and on the blanket covering the dead body.


Even if it was John who broke the window for staging purposes: the stager of the scene needn't necessarily have been the same person who delivered the head blow. Imo both John and Patsy were in the cover-up together.
yes, evidence points to PR building/using the 'garotte', but what exactly points to staging? IMO, what we see is what we get. PR constructed the garotte and strangled her daughter to death. Those bruises around JB's neck, speak volumes. moo
 
The evidence points to Patsy being involved as well.
The fiber evidence implicates her as the stager of the 'garrote' scene:
Fibers from the jacket she had been wearing to the Whites' party were found in in locations directly associated with JonBenet's death: in the paint tray, in the neck ligature, on the duct tape, and on the blanket covering the dead body.


Even if it was John who broke the window for staging purposes: the stager of the scene needn't necessarily have been the same person who delivered the head blow. Imo both John and Patsy were in the cover-up together.

Supposing everything you pointed out is true, the killer is still the one who tightened the ligature around JonBenet's neck. Cause of death was strangulation, according to the autopsy finding.

So, if you see John and Patsy both on the scene, then who do you think was the more likely to tighten the cord, even if it was Patsy who tied the stick into the ligature? They were setting up a 'kidnapping gone awry scene', and even though she appeared dead from the head blow to them, they thought adding the strangulation aspect would really make it look more heinous.

I can easily see Patsy baling out at the last moment and John having to do the final pull. :moo:
 
Once he admits he's a liar, then there is no reason to believe anything he says on any aspect of the case. Sure he could claim Patsy did it and he was only an accessory after the fact, but there would be NO reason to believe that either. His goose would be cooked. No defense lawyer in his right mind would allow John to make such a claim.


I have to disagree. It's not about proof, or believing, it's about doubt. A jury can understand a man lying to protect a family member. In fact BDI depends on exactly that - "we lied, covered, staged, to protect Burke." Though I'm not a BDI believer, I can see how it would play to the jury.

If the jury has a doubt as to who actually did it, they'll acquit.
 
Question,,, please don't throw rocks!! Is there anyone on WS that believes the Ramseys are innocent?? I'm gonna be finishing PMPT tmrw and I was just wondering :)
TIA
 
Question,,, please don't throw rocks!! Is there anyone on WS that believes the Ramseys are innocent?? I'm gonna be finishing PMPT tmrw and I was just wondering :)
TIA

I do.

And to chris hope - 12 or so years ago I believed a paedophile was some illusory one in a billion dirty old man in a flasher mac having a w*nk in the bushes in the park - these days a lot more people are a lot more aware of the organised and prolific nature of this sort of criminal/act and who can be involved - including for a variety of reasons. I understand the jury system being based on "belief" as well as proven facts based in law but if this is not enough then we need to address the entire system from the root up and we need our law enforcers and legal people to work harder and to do better.
 
Is it a total certainty that no juvenile charges could have been filed on a child so close to age ten? I don't think burke did all 3 assaults, but say he did, couldn't some special measures be taken into account in such a heinous crime?
 
Is it a total certainty that no juvenile charges could have been filed on a child so close to age ten? I don't think burke did all 3 assaults, but say he did, couldn't some special measures be taken into account in such a heinous crime?

It is a total certainty. Colorado law is pretty plain. NO CHILD UNDER THE AGE OF TEN may be charged in a crime. Any crime. They cannot even be publicly suspected. And this is the case no matter how serious the crime. Even if it was the day before his 10th birthday.
 
Question,,, please don't throw rocks!! Is there anyone on WS that believes the Ramseys are innocent?? I'm gonna be finishing PMPT tmrw and I was just wondering :)
TIA
Certainly. According to the poll associated with this thread, [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=180424"]Knowing all you know today about this case who do you think really killed JonBenet? - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame], 26 members of WS (14.77%) believe an intruder did it, and 19 members (10/80%) have not formed an opinion.
 

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