IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #14

[GrainneDhu]

I'm still trying to find the link where I read that human scent of one person can be transferred to another, but I do think you are right, abduction was at the lake. moo

One human's scent can be transferred to another but under ordinary conditions, not enough transferred scent will drop off the second person to make for a good track.

If someone took sweaty clothing belonging to someone else, tied it around something like a bean bag, then dragged it over the ground, that would make a trackable scent.

However, I just don't see that happening in this case.

 

[otto]

Well, to me risking being seen twice for a short time each vs one longer time (kidnapping and staging all at once) isn't a big difference.

But a later abduction solves the standing bikes problem in simpler terms. So do you lean to the idea that they were snatched at a later time from the exact site the bikes were found?

I can see them going to the lake twice. Evil dude sets up a meeting for later in the day, to give himself time to set up a trap?

I guess I can't say much here, but I think they're might be something telling about the rewind someone did to the 13th. Time to dredge through three scanner threads.....

BBM

The bikes were found at the lake. They children went out to ride bikes per the grandmother at 11:30 and were seen on video behind the home at 12:15. Why would we assume that they were absent or missing between 11:30 and 12:15? Maybe they were riding up and down the street at the time ... per the grandmother. It seems that as soon as they were missing for more than an hour, after 12:15, the grandmother was concerned.

I still go back to the fact that police were called really quickly and the bikes were discovered really quickly ... what was going on behind the scenes that the family was calling police within an hour of the girls being unseen, and does that connect to the lake in any way? Did Elizabeth routinely go to the lake and did she take Lyric with her that fateful Friday, July 13th? As a chlid, it was not unusual for my son to be out of visual and phone range for more than an hour ... but I wasn't phoning police. Is it normal to phone police if a child is out of sight for an hour?

Are there two gates, or were you thinking about the East end of the fence as being an entrance to the treed area? We know that there isn't a gate at Maiden Lane ... where is the second gate?

 

[superbee]

My substance to abuse is food.

I wish I could simply decide never to abuse it again.

I wish I did not get panic attacks when I envision myself more slender (it's tied up with being raped at 12 years old).

I am fortunate. I don't have to engage in criminal activity to get my substance of choice, I don't have to associate with criminals to get access to my substance of choice, I don't have to devote the major part of my income to acquiring my substance of choice.

I don't know what the answer is. I do know that the statistics for people like me are terrible. Over 5 years, 98% of all people who diet to lose weight will gain it all back and then some.

I wish I had the choice not to be living in this glass house.

Sending big hugs to you, and others here who need them. It is what is in our hearts that counts, not what we see on the scale or in the mirror.

 

[Confusion]

BBM

I still go back to the fact that police were called really quickly and the bikes were discovered really quickly ... what was going on behind the scenes that the family was calling police within an hour of the girls being unseen, and does that connect to the lake in any way? Did Elizabeth routinely go to the lake and did she take Lyric with her that fateful Friday, July 13th? As a chlid, it was not unusual for my son to be out of visual and phone range for more than an hour ... but I wasn't phoning police. Is it normal to phone police if a child is out of sight for an hour?

SBM

Their grandmother has said that they always stayed close enough to hear her when she called for them, and were home soon after. I don't believe she started looking for them because she thought anything was wrong but because she had plans and wanted to get going. She drove around looking for them for at least an hour, and still didn't call the police. She actually left while the mothers continued to look for them. By the time the police were contacted, the girls had been gone for over 3 hours (from 11:30 to 2:45). When my kids were their ages, I probably would have called them sooner. My sons also had to check in with me every hour.

Maybe that is jumping the gun a bit, but we didn't live real far from where Jacob Wetterling was taken, and one of my sons was close to his age. As they say (whoever they are), it's better to be safe than sorry.

 

[CoeTrawk]

Are there two gates, or were you thinking about the East end of the fence as being an entrance to the treed area? We know that there isn't a gate at Maiden Lane ... where is the second gate?

No, there is a second gate in the same (northern) fence as the drain pipe gate. Unlike the big double jetty gate, this gate is just a one-swinger. It was locked and did not appear to give access to anything other than a random spot of woods. That is, there wasn't any obvious trail or path on the other side for this gate to give access to. No building or object or anything to necessitate gated access... you know, about the randomest gate I've ever seen. Maybe when Maiden Lane was a road, that was the south end of it? If you're walking east along the path, this is before you reach the clearing that is south of Arbutus.

The only thing I can think of is it might be a shortcut from the pump station off Arbutus Avenue to the bike path (if the pump station guy needed to go do something with the drain pipe maybe?) Maybe in days of old Maiden Lane was more substantial and you could drive to this gate.

 

[hambirg]

Well, to me risking being seen twice for a short time each vs one longer time (kidnapping and staging all at once) isn't a big difference.

But a later abduction solves the standing bikes problem in simpler terms. So do you lean to the idea that they were snatched at a later time from the exact site the bikes were found?

I can see them going to the lake twice. Evil dude sets up a meeting for later in the day, to give himself time to set up the trap?

Idk. . I'm not sure what I think anymore. :crazy:

I just can't be sure that when TG saw the bikes that the girls weren't just playing around in the area. Like you said, it seems weird that no one else reports seeing the bikes laying there for that entire time. . from 12:20 to when they were found over 3 hours later.

 

[GrainneDhu]

BBM

The bikes were found at the lake. They children went out to ride bikes per the grandmother at 11:30 and were seen on video behind the home at 12:15. Why would we assume that they were absent or missing between 11:30 and 12:15? Maybe they were riding up and down the street at the time ... per the grandmother. It seems that as soon as they were missing for more than an hour, after 12:15, the grandmother was concerned.

I still go back to the fact that police were called really quickly and the bikes were discovered really quickly ... what was going on behind the scenes that the family was calling police within an hour of the girls being unseen, and does that connect to the lake in any way? Did Elizabeth routinely go to the lake and did she take Lyric with her that fateful Friday, July 13th? As a chlid, it was not unusual for my son to be out of visual and phone range for more than an hour ... but I wasn't phoning police. Is it normal to phone police if a child is out of sight for an hour?

Are there two gates, or were you thinking about the East end of the fence as being an entrance to the treed area? We know that there isn't a gate at Maiden Lane ... where is the second gate?

I didn't get the impression Grandma Cook was concerned about the girls from 11:30 am; I thought she became concerned about 12:30 pm, when she hadn't seen them in 15 minutes. Since she specifically mentioned the girls were always within calling distance when on their bicycles, I assume she tried calling for them before she got into her car to look for them.

Grandma Cook said she last saw the girls at 12:15 pm.

Heather Collins went in person to the Evansdale PD to file a missing report at 2:45 pm.

That's about 2.5 hours after the girls were last seen by family. In 42.9% of missing children, the child is reported missing within 2 hours. In 68.4% of cases, the child is reported missing within 4.5 hours.

http://www.atg.wa.gov/uploadedFiles...)/Child_Abduction_Murder_Research/CMIIPDF.pdf

 

[Tucarra]

I just don't see 2 responsible-appearing citizens coming forward with information that think is helpful to the investigation and purposely lying about what they saw. They may be "inaccurate" regarding times, dates or whatever, but I truly believe they saw what/who they "thought" they saw.

The judgement and accusations passed upon these "witnesses" may be why other witnesses are hesitant to come forward.

Totally agree...

 

[artzypantz]

Ok google maps has 1.1 miles from Cornbelt Auctions to Lake Ave.

Shortest route - straight down S Evans.

Time - 4 minutes.

Not sure how to post the damn thing though....

This is NOT directed at you SapphireSteel, but at Google Maps in general;

I dont go by what Google maps says for distances because of personal experience. My son was stuck with some friends in California last summer and without a vehicle. I texted him directions off of Google Maps to a few places he had to walk to. One place listed the walk as a 37 minute walk, and my son and his friend called to let me know the walk took them close to 2 hours to arrive there. I know that the distance in milage to my mothers house from my house in the car at 55 verses what google maps states, there is a 2.3 mile difference with Google being the shorter of the distance.

I just wouldnt go by Google Map distance as Gospel i guess is my point.
MOO
ArtzyPantz

 

[artzypantz]

sent you a message w/ the fb name you can look up

Great! Thank you very much!

Are we NOT allowed to post FB links to this missing persons case on this thread? I know they do post the links in others missing threads here.....

But any way, :tyou:

ArtzyPantz

 

[Kathy023]

:lurk: I've got a couple of questions about the area of the surveillance video (posted July 25, 2012 3:39 pm • WCF Courier).

The caption reads: "Authorities say this surveillance video released by Cornbelt Auction, 3520 Lafayette Road, shows missing girls Lyric and Elizabeth riding their bicycles in an alley behind Lederman's Big & Tall Clothing at approximately 12:11 p.m. Friday, July 13. The girls are seen riding by on the top right side of the screen. The video represents the last time the girls were seen since July 13."

Where is Lederman's in relation to the view shown? And what IS Cornbelt Auctions --- is it used for actual public auctions or is it a storage warehouse or something like that? And, finally, what do you think of the white chair on the loading dock below the camera? If someone were to have that vantage point on most weekdays maybe, they'd be one to know the girls' routine pretty well...just throwin' that out there...

Here's a still shot of what I'm looking at:
http://bloximages.chicago2.vip.town...0e-0019bb2963f4/5010599c030f6.preview-300.jpg

TIA!

 

[Sunlight]

That's a thought!

I'm also now curious as to why LE was looking at surveillance tape at Casey's as late as 2pm. I feel like we are missing a big, important piece to this puzzle. Maybe that 2:30pm sighting is accurate. Maybe the girls just lost track of time and were on the go when Grandma went looking for them and that's why she didn't see them. Ever try to find somebody in a grocery store when you are both walking around looking for each other? :waitasec:

Because they could have been in the back of a van, or any vehicle, anywhere after they left the Collins house...Or, perhaps they saw that van on the cctv video first, or some other surveillance we are unaware of at this time. MOO

 

[rjjensen]

do we know if the place where TG saw the bikes was the same location as when they were found later? i think this is important..it would poss. establish when the girls were abducted..if he saw the bikes in one location and their position moved it could suggest that they moved them...however if the location does not change it would suggest that the girls never came back to the bikes.

 

[Sunlight]

In several pressers, Abben said he was unaware of the girls' bikes being sighted by a cyclist on the trail. In fact, he told the reporter to contact LE with the name. Just sayin'. MOO

 

[rjjensen]

:lurk: I've got a couple of questions about the area of the surveillance video (posted July 25, 2012 3:39 pm • WCF Courier).

The caption reads: "Authorities say this surveillance video released by Cornbelt Auction, 3520 Lafayette Road, shows missing girls Lyric and Elizabeth riding their bicycles in an alley behind Lederman's Big & Tall Clothing at approximately 12:11 p.m. Friday, July 13. The girls are seen riding by on the top right side of the screen. The video represents the last time the girls were seen since July 13."

Where is Lederman's in relation to the view shown? And what IS Cornbelt Auctions --- is it used for actual public auctions or is it a storage warehouse or something like that? And, finally, what do you think of the white chair on the loading dock below the camera? If someone were to have that vantage point on most weekdays maybe, they'd be one to know the girls' routine pretty well...just throwin' that out there...

Here's a still shot of what I'm looking at:
http://bloximages.chicago2.vip.town...0e-0019bb2963f4/5010599c030f6.preview-300.jpg

TIA!

the camera looks onto brovan ave from the rear of cornbelt auctions
http://goo.gl/maps/ZtsWE

 

[Simp]

do we know if the place where TG saw the bikes was the same location as when they were found later? i think this is important..it would poss. establish when the girls were abducted..if he saw the bikes in one location and their position moved it could suggest that they moved them...however if the location does not change it would suggest that the girls never came back to the bikes.

I asked this question very early on and never heard a response. I think we just don't know the answer to that. Wish we did!!

 

[Jax49]

do we know if the place where TG saw the bikes was the same location as when they were found later? i think this is important..it would poss. establish when the girls were abducted..if he saw the bikes in one location and their position moved it could suggest that they moved them...however if the location does not change it would suggest that the girls never came back to the bikes.

We don't know. Doesn't seem to be much of a blind curve near that gate, so many they were moved closer to the gate to hint the girls were in the water. Possibly the purse was on the lake side of the fence to indicate the same thing? IDK

 

[rjjensen]

back to the timeline.

the girls in the cctv were traveling west..that would add some distance/time to their travel to the lake

 

[TxLady2]

That's a thought!

I'm also now curious as to why LE was looking at surveillance tape at Casey's as late as 2pm. I feel like we are missing a big, important piece to this puzzle. Maybe that 2:30pm sighting is accurate. Maybe the girls just lost track of time and were on the go when Grandma went looking for them and that's why she didn't see them. Ever try to find somebody in a grocery store when you are both walking around looking for each other? :waitasec:

That's a very good point, and yes, if the person you're looking for is on the move, the chances of being in the same place they are at the same time is pretty slim. I've walked around Wal Mart for 30 minutes at a time looking for my husband and/or son until I found them or they found me. We've been known to call each other's cell phones, too.
If Grandma drove around looking and didn't see them, it just means they were not in a certain spot at the time she was looking in that spot.

 

[rjjensen]

In several pressers, Abben said he was unaware of the girls' bikes being sighted by a cyclist on the trail. In fact, he told the reporter to contact LE with the name. Just sayin'. MOO

not sure when Abben said this but TG did not report the bike sighting until the day after the abduction