IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #15

[Sunlight]

So following on Nikb's I guess the added would be in order:
- Lyric was at Gma's house in Waterloo with Gma and MCM
- 8:30 MCM leaves for work
- ?? Gma and Lyric leave for Evansdale to go to the Collins house
- Heather ??
- Drew ??
- DM was at his mother's house with Lyric's brother
- Gma says sometime from 11:30 - 12:00 girls leave house to go bike riding
- 12:11 (or 12:19 depending on camera clock delays) girls are seen riding behind Lederman's on the surveillance camera (also very close to the Collins house); unknown IMO if G'ma physically saw them at that time or
- Gma starts to look for girls at 12:30 with Heather's son
- Somewhere between 1-2 Gma calls MCM to tell her girls are not back and to come
to Collins house, because she has to go meet TB in Waterloo for something
- Gma leaves at 1:30??
- ? Drew calls Gma and TB to say to come back to help look for girls
- TB says to go to look at the lake, and when they get there she asks a bystander if he had seen the girls, and he said she says that he saw the little girls riding their bikes at 2:30
- Heather goes to LE and reports them missing
- 3:58 detective Abben sees the bikes by the fence

Optional...
- 12:27 Mr. G makes a call to his daughter unrelated to the bikes; a few days later says he swerved to miss the girls' bikes at about 12:20, with the time based on the call to his daughter.
- "Sometime between 12 and 3" Mr. C says he saw the girls while he was watering his yard.
- Around 1:00 family started looking for the girls by driving around; I think they called the police around 3:00 but I'm still trying to find that reference again.
- 3:40 firefighters found the girls' bikes and the purse (condition unknown)
- 3:58 detective Abben found the bikes leaning against the fence

 

[MotherOcean]

SBM

There is one piece of information from the family that leads me to believe that DM and Lyric have a fairly close, loving relationship. And that is the fight over the chores that led to Lyric making a threat to run away.

Children of 10 whose parents are emotionally absent from their lives don't fight with those parents. They don't know them well enough to feel safe fighting with them. That Lyric felt safe enough to get mad at her father says to me that, flawed though he may be, he is enough of a presence in her life that she feels safe enough with him to show her anger with him.

I know there are exceptions to every generalisation but strictly my own impression is that DM does love his kids. Sadly, addiction has nothing to do with love.

I say this with the utmost respect but I do have to respectfully disagree that children with emotionally absent parents don't fight with them. First, I'm not sure Lyric was fighting. I think she was just crying out for help. I certainly do not and would never question her father's love for her. I am sure he loves her very much, but just because Lyric was upset enough to say she would run away doesn't mean that she felt close to him. An emotionally absent parent who is attempting to exert control or pressure (or some desired behavior, i.e., the chores) is very likely to meet resistance and defiance from an otherwise very well mannered child. Sometimes the children's reactions are "over the top" because they are in fact trying to draw out a connection with the parent.

 

[Reverie]

VW is sitting on a park bench at Meyers Lake during this interview. When VW refers to here, she is referring to Evansdale and that would be HC and DC home, i.e. the girls see each other every day because they come HERE to clean, i.e. Evansdale.

Correction: Sitting on a fold up green chair.

IMO

My understanding as well.

 

[superbee]

Ten year olds have to make sense when they are making a big, dramatic gesture? Who knew? <LOL>

Seriously, even though no one in my family ever threatened to run away I understand it's a pretty common thing and not necessarily indicative of anything more than "I don't know how to make people understand how upset I am, so I will make this great big threat."

Sometimes it means more but most often, it's frustration that the child doesn't know how to express yet. It's not always a logical response because it's emotionally based.

I know when I am overwhelmed with emotion, my logic goes out the window.

Think anyone would be impressed if my 50something self threatened to run away? After all, it's never too late to have a happy childhood!

Go for having some fun, make happy memories!!

 

[Sailorsgirl]

I say this with the utmost respect but I do have to respectfully disagree that children with emotionally absent parents don't fight with them. First, I'm not sure Lyric was fighting. I think she was just crying out for help. I certainly do not and would never question her father's love for her. I am sure he loves her very much, but just because Lyric was upset enough to say she would run away doesn't mean that she felt close to him. An emotionally absent parent who is attempting to exert control or pressure (or some desired behavior, i.e., the chores) is very likely to meet resistance and defiance from an otherwise very well mannered child. Sometimes the children's reactions are "over the top" because they are in fact trying to draw out a connection with the parent.

Doesn't every kid threaten or attempt to run away from home at one point or another over even the dumbest thing? I think this is normal behaviour for a kid. Even Opie did it on "The Andy Griffith Show."

 

[Confusion]

Doesn't every kid threaten or attempt to run away from home at one point or another over even the dumbest thing? I think this is normal behaviour for a kid. Even Opie did it on "The Andy Griffith Show."

When my older son was really young, he'd threaten to run away a lot (although when he was 3 and got mad at me, he just asked me if I wanted to go live with someone else!). He actually went across the street to sit by a tree and wait for me to come get him one time, but that's the farthest he ever went.

When he was about 12-13, I read him something from some astrology book or article about parenting with different sun signs. I told him that it said that an Aries parent and a Leo child were a great combination because they were not only parent-child they were also friends - which I expected to make him laugh.

Instrsd, he just said, "Well, that's true." I asked him how he could think that when I was always getting after him about something. His response was, "That's your job, when you aren't working, we're good friends!" Luckily, he's 35 years old now, and we're still good friends.

 

[superbee]

Your post made me cry. Thank you for sharing such an emotional part of your life. I wholeheartedly agree with every poster who has said that people react differently to situations. In 2005, I had a miscarriage. Right after surgery, my husband (now my exhusband) and I were at Walmart buying party supplies because I promised a friend's son that I would give him a Shrek birthday party. We had the party the next day. A week later, I was in tears and depressed for months. My ex started renovating the house. A year later, we were in the same position ... miscarriage. I immediately went into depression-mode, he started renovating the house. He built a wall around himself to deal with the pain (or not deal with it). I just cried all the time ... and continued to cry periodically for 3 years until I found myself in a second marriage and pregnant for the third time -- a pregnancy that had just about every complication imaginable. Our son was born 10 weeks early with PVL and retinopathy, basically he could have had cerebral palsy and become blind. My husband and I dealt with it the best we could ... tears when we needed them, but we stayed pretty strong for each other and because, no matter what, this was the hand we were dealt.

I don't fault the family for the lack of emotions or the distractedness or whatever. This is how they are dealing with a terrible situation. We have no idea if they cry themselves to sleep.

I am so sorry for you, and everyone else here who has gone through such hurt and tragedy. Sending you all much sympathy, and big, big hugs.

 

[otto]

Was there anything in the early news relating to the paddleboater besides the fact that LE wanted to talk to him? I came into this case in the middle of a great big argument over whether it should be called a paddle or a pedal boat so that's all I know about it. Was there someone who came forward about it, or anything like that? TIA, coz I sure can't find anything.

Strictly from memory, but I vaguely recall that when the family was looking for the girls, prior to the discovery of the bikes, they spoke to people at the park. It might have been Misty that said she spoke to a paddle boat person that mentioned seeing two girls on bikes ... that's the only reference I have for a paddle boat and I don't have a link. I kind of ignored the detail until there was a clear request for a paddle boat person to come forward. I think they wanted to talk to the paddleboat person because they currently have no confirmed sightings of the girls at the park.

 

[Sailorsgirl]

I am so sorry for you, and everyone else here who has gone through such hurt and tragedy. Sending you all much sympathy, and big, big hugs.

Thank you, Superbee. I should add that my son is 2 1/2 now and doing really well.

 

[Sailorsgirl]

Strictly from memory, but I vaguely recall that when the family was looking for the girls, prior to the discovery of the bikes, they spoke to people at the park. It might have been Misty that said she spoke to a paddle boat person that mentioned seeing two girls on bikes ... that's the only reference I have for a paddle boat and I don't have a link. I kind of ignored the detail until there was a clear request for a paddle boat person to come forward. I think they wanted to talk to the paddleboat person because they currently have no confirmed sightings of the girls at the park.

I also remember something about the owners of a paddleboat saying that it appeared to have been used while they weren't home ... I could be wrong about that, but I do recall discussing this early on.

 

[hambirg]

So following on Nikb's I guess the added would be in order:
- Lyric was at Gma's house in Waterloo with Gma and MCM
- 8:30 MCM leaves for work
- ?? Gma and Lyric leave for Evansdale to go to the Collins house
- Heather ??
- Drew ??
- DM was at his mother's house with Lyric's brother
- Gma says sometime from 11:30 - 12:00 girls leave house to go bike riding
- 12:11 (or 12:19 depending on camera clock delays) girls are seen riding behind Lederman's on the surveillance camera (also very close to the Collins house); unknown IMO if G'ma physically saw them at that time or
- Gma starts to look for girls at 12:30 with Heather's son
- Somewhere between 1-2 Gma calls MCM to tell her girls are not back and to come
to Collins house, because she has to go meet TB in Waterloo for something
- Gma leaves at 1:30??
- ? Drew calls Gma and TB to say to come back to help look for girls
- TB says to go to look at the lake, and when they get there she asks a bystander if he had seen the girls, and he said she says that he saw the little girls riding their bikes at 2:30
- Heather goes to LE and reports them missing
- 3:58 detective Abben sees the bikes by the fence

Optional...
- 12:27 Mr. G makes a call to his daughter unrelated to the bikes; a few days later says he swerved to miss the girls' bikes at about 12:20, with the time based on the call to his daughter.
- "Sometime between 12 and 3" Mr. C says he saw the girls while he was watering his yard.
- Around 1:00 family started looking for the girls by driving around; I think they called the police around 3:00 but I'm still trying to find that reference again.
- 3:40 firefighters found the girls' bikes and the purse (condition unknown)
- 3:58 detective Abben found the bikes leaning against the fence

Thank you for laying it out like this. Boy, if we throw out Mr G's sighting it really opens things up. I just don't know what to think. :banghead:

ETA- JMHO. . .12:30 to 3:00 (when Heather went to the police) seems like a long time considering the girls ages. Maybe that's just me though.

 

[otto]

I also remember something about the owners of a paddleboat saying that it appeared to have been used while they weren't home ... I could be wrong about that, but I do recall discussing this early on.

Again, from memory, but I think that after the FBI made a request for the paddleboat person to come forward, then we heard some rumor about a paddleboat being used without permission at one of the homes near the drainage pipe. It seems unusual that someone would kind of steal a paddle boat and then politely return it, but perhaps that happened. Maybe that's why the paddle boat person hasn't come forward ... because they don't want to have to explain the accidental borrowing of a paddle boat.

I still think that the paddle boat person was only sought for the purpose of hopefully confirming that the girls were at the lake on July 13. As it stands, today there is still no confirmed sighting of the girls at the lake that day.

 

[GrainneDhu]

May have been posted, way back when...but don't remember anything about it...

Has anyone heard or have a recording/transcript of the 911 or missing person report?

I have not and I've been checking.

It would be a written report since Heather Collins went in person to the Evansdale PD to report them missing. No 911 call.

 

[otto]

Thank you for laying it out like this. Boy, if we throw out Mr G's sighting it really opens things up. I just don't know what to think. :banghead:

I found that the options opened up a lot by tossing out the lawn watering tip between noon and 3. If the route was restricted to Lake Avenue, then we were looking at the girls going in the "wrong" direction and entering the park on the East end in record time. Excluding Lake Avenue, we include the possibility that the cyclist saw the girls on the West side of the park much closer to the time when he made the call to his daughter.

 

[Sailorsgirl]

Again, from memory, but I think that after the FBI made a request for the paddleboat person to come forward, then we heard some rumor about a paddleboat being used without permission at one of the homes near the drainage pipe. It seems unusual that someone would kind of steal a paddle boat and then politely return it, but perhaps that happened. Maybe that's why the paddle boat person hasn't come forward ... because they don't want to have to explain the accidental borrowing of a paddle boat.

I still think that the paddle boat person was only sought for the purpose of hopefully confirming that the girls were at the lake on July 13. As it stands, today there is still no confirmed sighting of the girls at the lake that day.

I don't remember anyone saying they saw someone on a paddleboat, but just that someone thought theirs had been used. Interesting, because if there was someone on the lake, they may have seen something. Of course, I have to believe that if someone had taken the boat and saw something they would have come forward. I mean, technically, they didn't steal it and the girls are more important than having used a boat without permission.

 

[superbee]

Thank you, Superbee. I should add that my son is 2 1/2 now and doing really well.

Wonderful news, you've made my day!! Children are such blessings!

 

[superbee]

What part is puzzling? (asked respectfully not snarkily)

I see it as a pretty normal expression of the importance of family supporting each other in times of need. Same reason I took in my niece: she is family in need and that's just what family does.

The Collins family was going through an ongoing health thing, so it seems normal to me for their family to gather around and provide ongoing support.

Life is so tough, we all need help to get through it.

Sorry, I don't know how to post 2 quotes. What I was puzzled about was Dan's mum referring to 'here'. I can certainly see family members rallying around Heather with cleaning and child care.

 

[MotherOcean]

Doesn't every kid threaten or attempt to run away from home at one point or another over even the dumbest thing? I think this is normal behaviour for a kid. Even Opie did it on "The Andy Griffith Show."

IMO and with my personal experience of raising two children plus being very close to lots of other children (nieces, nephews, children of close friends) and with having worked with children from violent homes for over 20 years, no. Not every child threatens or attempts to run away from home at some point or another. I am sure it never occurred to my kids to run away from home. In fact, we talked about it and they couldn't understand why a child would want to run away. My kids loved being at home. Even if things weren't going their way (which was often) they would cope without wanting to leave. But I do not think it's necessarily a reflection of a "troubled" child. And, I don't think all children who do have more than their share of difficulties do think about running away from home.

 

[otto]

I don't remember anyone saying they saw someone on a paddleboat, but just that someone thought theirs had been used. Interesting, because if there was someone on the lake, they may have seen something. Of course, I have to believe that if someone had taken the boat and saw something they would have come forward. I mean, technically, they didn't steal it and the girls are more important than having used a boat without permission.

The best I can recall is ...

I'm thinking back to the night that this was first reported, July 13. There was an early article that mentioned the people that the family spoke with at the park. We've heard about the young boy that was fishing, but I think the first article mentioned a couple of other people as well ... and I think that was the first time that I heard about a paddle boat. I remember wondering how the mom spoke to the paddleboater ... like ... did she lean over the water and holler. That's the only reason I'm thinking I read that ... I still have the crazy visual. Then I wondered if it was at the parking lot dock ... but paddle boats are not usually transported like canoes and kayaks, which brought me to the question of: what exactly is a paddle boat? Anyway, I started the paddle boat debate (apologies) ... I understand that it's a fibreglass, blow molded thing with seats (> 2), bicycle-type pedals and a paddle that is slowly turned to slowly move forward or in circles, depending on how many people are in the boat.

The young boy that was fishing for quite a while and didn't see the girls ... on what part of the lake was he fishing? That would tell us what side of the lake the family was first looking ... anyone know?

Technically, borrowing a paddle boat without permission could lead to attention from police. It could have been teenagers ... if a paddle boat was borrowed, they may have made a pact not to get sucked into the microscope of the investigation. Probably a wise decision whether they are guilty or innocent. Imagine if two 17 year old boys did it ...would they want their reputations dragged through the social media if there was no harm, no foul. I doubt it.

 

[winterrose]

Children don't just up and decide to announce that they are going to run away because of one incident. DM has an anger issue and, IMO, he probably tends to be controlling. He is a meth user and as such he is not a dad who was providing any kind of emotional stability for his little girl who was still too young to possess enough of her own to work through conflict. I'm sure that Lyric saying she was going to run away was, in part, a cry for help/attention/empathy and also just a way of venting her own frustration. By "cry for help" I mean that she was doing what she needed to do to have someone else intervene on her behalf which is what WC did when she hugged Lyric and told her it would be o.k.

My point is that it wasn't really about the chores or where she lived or who she lived with or anything like that. It was more of a reflection of her relationship with her father. Sure, she may have just been plain 'ole mad about having to do chores, but her reaction to that was not something that she thought out, she was just reacting. It didn't matter to her where she lived, she wasn't thinking logically, she was thinking like a 10 year old who had an upset father who she couldn't trust.

Oh my gosh I love you in a WS way. Exactly, ITA with everything you said and to add to that, she was living with Grandma, raising her as a mother. Her mother had just come home from jail in May. I imagine things were really confusing for her and not the stable life she had probably been used to with school and Grandma. She had just gotten out of school for the summer, excited about doing nothing and had to go to a home she didn't live at to clean it. She's only 10.