IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #22

[GrainneDhu]

I understand that. I am simply referring to the statements that have been made and since we're all sitting around here speculating due to lack of info, I thought I would ask those people who are a little more scientifically inclined IF the statements made by LE about the bodies not looking like they had been in the elements for 4 to 5 months and could be ID'd on sight (at least tentatively) what could be the cause?

What environmental factors could account for a body, that HAD been in the elements for 5 months, being so easily identifiable?

I have no theory and I know we have no facts but those are statements that have been made and I'm just trying to understand them.

Okay, I see what you mean.

One relatively easy cause would be if the bodies had been wrapped up into blankets. They were in the shade last summer, so they would have been protected from the high temperatures. Fabric would have wicked up moisture from the ground and gotten wet with dew, so that some evaporative cooling would occur.

 

[Confusion]

Last summer, several of those "attempted abductions" turned out to be misunderstandings fuelled by increased tension.

The Washington and Henry Counties white van guy has yet to be identified and, more than that, he has yet to commit a crime. I would like for LE to find out who he is but I'm not yet convinced that he has criminal intentions.

So far, there hasn't been anything to link a white van to Lyric and Elizabeth's disappearance.

When I read about this newest guy, the first thing I thought was: in a few days, they'll be saying, "Never mind, he was just evaluating the driving of our local school bus drivers."

 

[georger]

Last summer, several of those "attempted abductions" turned out to be misunderstandings fuelled by increased tension.

The Washington and Henry Counties white van guy has yet to be identified and, more than that, he has yet to commit a crime. I would like for LE to find out who he is but I'm not yet convinced that he has criminal intentions.

So far, there hasn't been anything to link a white van to Lyric and Elizabeth's disappearance.

Thanks Grannie. Appreciate your take on this.
I must ask: do you know the families, in the area ... ? If you dont want to
reply no problem. I will understand.

 

[georger]

Okay, I see what you mean.

One relatively easy cause would be if the bodies had been wrapped up into blankets. They were in the shade last summer, so they would have been protected from the high temperatures. Fabric would have wicked up moisture from the ground and gotten wet with dew, so that some evaporative cooling would occur.

Is it possible these kids were turned lose out there alive, and stayed there waiting for help
until they died of exposure ? I realise no COD has been issued so it is premature to speculate --

 

[pdxmama]

Okay, I see what you mean.

One relatively easy cause would be if the bodies had been wrapped up into blankets. They were in the shade last summer, so they would have been protected from the high temperatures. Fabric would have wicked up moisture from the ground and gotten wet with dew, so that some evaporative cooling would occur.

Thank you, that makes sense. And thanks for your explanation about the reporter, I didn't realize it was a reporter that said the bodies didn't look like they had been outside for 4 to 5 months, I thought that came from LE. I definitely know better than to take a reporter's word for just about anything.

 

[dadgum]

Do you have any foundation for their being released alive? Is there a statement from LE?..this is all speculation. Without facts, there is not much anyone can do but speculate. Most are posing possible scenarios (the girls being kept alive until rather recently, they were lost in the woods, they drowned in the lake and washed NORTH through several waterways...white vans, boaters, hunters SO, drug connections, hit and run..all speculation), and others are giving reasons things are unlikely, or possible ways something could have happened. No one is saying anything is factual, unless you see a quote or reference to LE statements.

 

[georger]

Do you have any foundation for their being released alive? Is there a statement from LE?..this is all speculation. Without facts, .

Agree. No foundation except for the faint possibility LE said bodies vs
remains which may imply recent death, bodies close to each other, ...
maybe they were tied up out there for somebody tof ind except this year
with our 500 year drought little reasonfor anyone to even be out there for
months, water very low, no fishing opportunities, ... but pending facts
from LE its pure speculation. I do a lot of fishing, but did none this year
due to low water level, hellish temps (killed my garden for the first time
ever!), people were not out-and-about as usual this year.

Your ideas?

 

[pdxmama]

Do you have any foundation for their being released alive? Is there a statement from LE?..this is all speculation. Without facts, there is not much anyone can do but speculate. Most are posing possible scenarios (the girls being kept alive until rather recently, they were lost in the woods, they drowned in the lake and washed NORTH through several waterways...white vans, boaters, hunters SO, drug connections, hit and run..all speculation), and others are giving reasons things are unlikely, or possible ways something could have happened. No one is saying anything is factual, unless you see a quote or reference to LE statements.

That's what we do here, we speculate. Right now we don't have a lot of information to go on so we throw out theories, ask questions and do our best. When we get more facts those theories may change, become more likely, or more impossible. I know it can be frustrating to wade through it when there isn't a lot to go on but it's just kind of how it works.

 

[StormyNights]

I just hope that whoever did this to these two beautiful girls doesn't end up getting away with 2 murders. This is disgusting enough without this case going cold (again, IMO) and unless someone actually confesses or maybe their will be someone who is going to catch a case for something else and is willing to talk for a deal, I just don't think we will ever know who did this. MOO and it's freakin' sad and it makes me sick that these little girls lost their lives for absolutely NOTHING..... :furious::banghead:

 

[GrainneDhu]

Thanks Grannie. Appreciate your take on this.
I must ask: do you know the families, in the area ... ? If you dont want to
reply no problem. I will understand.

No, I don't know the families. Although after all the reading I've done, in some ways I feel like I sort of do know them!

I live 90 miles away.

 

[dadgum]

Exactly pdxmama..I do hope some firm information is released, though this not being Florida, I am doubtful. I think LE has an easier job when everything is not released for people to try to 'decode'.

Once we can stop speculating, it will be because information has been released. I personally find it nearly impossible to believe that had the girls lay in the open for months, animals did not scatter their remains. After this length of time, one would expect to find nothing but skeletal remains, with perhaps some tissue remaining, but very little if at all. I am a little confused by how quickly the site was gone over. Thinking back to other cases, specifically Caylee Anthony, recovery can take days in an environment like this.

Add that to the use of "bodies" versus remains..and it makes folks wonder. So many possibilities, but in fact only one thing actually happened, and no one has said what, if they know. IMO bodies is a much kinder way to speak of two children, because they are little girls, not just remains. The wording used depends on the speaker, the audience, and the venue. LE personnel are people, and feel this loss. And they feel for the parents.

 

[nikb]

I still don't understand why the hunters that located the bodies aren't getting the reward. Can someone explain that? Thanks!

They aren't?

 

[GrainneDhu]

Is it possible these kids were turned lose out there alive, and stayed there waiting for help
until they died of exposure ? I realise no COD has been issued so it is premature to speculate --

I doubt it.

These kids were Iowa kids and old enough to know that if you just go in one direction long enough, you will find a road. Iowa is laid out on the Jeffersonian grid, so every square mile of land is bordered with roads. Someone really unlucky would only have to walk a mile in one direction before finding a road. Or a crop field, which is almost as good (follow one row until you get to the end and you'll be within sight of a road).

Iowa is so easy to navigate that the only people who get lost are really tiny children (say, 5 and under) or people who have some type of mental disability (usually Alzheimers).

The temps last July were horrid but there was water right there where the bodies were found. I'm sure drinking low, drought summer river water would not be anyone's first choice of a beverage but if you're thirsty, that tends to overcome persnicketiness.

I've been hiking all over Iowa since I was about 4 years old and have never felt in danger of being lost. Even if I didn't really know where I was on a map, I could always figure out how to find a road, so I was never really lost. Just temporarily vague on my exact whereabouts.

If the girls had been turned loose where their bodies were found, they may have suffered from bug bites, poison ivy, blisters and (eventually) giardia but they would have found their way home alive.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Thank you, that makes sense. And thanks for your explanation about the reporter, I didn't realize it was a reporter that said the bodies didn't look like they had been outside for 4 to 5 months, I thought that came from LE. I definitely know better than to take a reporter's word for just about anything.

Ain't that the truth!

And a sorry comment on the state of journalism as well.

 

[georger]

I am a little confused by how quickly the site was gone over. Thinking back to other cases, specifically Caylee Anthony, recovery can take days in an environment like this.
.[/quote]

If you are referring to speed of LE reaction, it was instant. Area closed by
HW Patrol and Deputies, FBI response instant with agents (forensic)
dispatched including from Nebraska there next morning, BCI people there
next day, search organised and still being conducted as I write ... this is
being taken very seriously at every level.

 

[georger]

I doubt it.

These kids were Iowa kids and old enough to know that if you just go in one direction long enough, you will find a road. Iowa is laid out on the Jeffersonian grid, so every square mile of land is bordered with roads. Someone really unlucky would only have to walk a mile in one direction before finding a road. Or a crop field, which is almost as good (follow one row until you get to the end and you'll be within sight of a road).

Iowa is so easy to navigate that the only people who get lost are really tiny children (say, 5 and under) or people who have some type of mental disability (usually Alzheimers).

The temps last July were horrid but there was water right there where the bodies were found. I'm sure drinking low, drought summer river water would not be anyone's first choice of a beverage but if you're thirsty, that tends to overcome persnicketiness.

I've been hiking all over Iowa since I was about 4 years old and have never felt in danger of being lost. Even if I didn't really know where I was on a map, I could always figure out how to find a road, so I was never really lost. Just temporarily vague on my exact whereabouts.

If the girls had been turned loose where their bodies were found, they may have suffered from bug bites, poison ivy, blisters and (eventually) giardia but they would have found their way home alive.

unless bound or compromised in some significant way - I agree with the
rest of what you say - was born and bred in SE southern Iowa at
Headland's Ranch. We had the serial murderer from Signourney Gayno Smith
hiding in our north section for almost a month, got caught one morning trying to
steal chickens from the neighbors ...

 

[dadgum]

I meant that the search for scattered bones can take days..sifting and searching. Photographing and recording the location of everything. It appears that little if any recovery on that level was necessary. LE is said to be careful, very thorough..they want to solve this case. Finding something, anything, that is out of place, and will lead to an arrest is their priority now. I think that is what leads to speculation that the bodies were not completely decomposed..and then why.

In no way is anyone implying that response was anything other than immediate, and thorough.

 

[Snowbunny]

If the bodies were frozen they will begin to decompose rapidly as they thaw out. I still remember the young man my son pulled out of the creek here about a mile from our house here in SD last year who was frozen. That was a sad situation. He and some so called friends were out at the bar got into a vehicle and then got into an argument and his friends shoved him out of the vehicle at the edge of town here in the middle of a blizzard. He was so drunk and couldn't see where he was going and slipped into the creek.

 

[writer7]

I meant that the search for scattered bones can take days..sifting and searching. Photographing and recording the location of everything. It appears that little if any recovery on that level was necessary. LE is said to be careful, very thorough..they want to solve this case. Finding something, anything, that is out of place, and will lead to an arrest is their priority now. I think that is what leads to speculation that the bodies were not completely decomposed..and then why.

In no way is anyone implying that response was anything other than immediate, and thorough.

I think the bodies were probably originally in bags or containers. Maybe some container that would look like hunting or fishing gear?

There is a really disturbing phenomenon that could cause a very dead body to be easily recognizable. Warning: it's really, really disturbing!!! Please do not read further if you aren't totally sure you can be clinical about this sort of thing It's called adipocere, or grave wax. I had a sweet dog it happened to, and unfortunately I did see her again very long after death. She looked the same, but made of different materials, if that makes sense. I hope that helps in some case sometime; I really hate to speak of something so disturbing. There are images on Google if you are interested in the clinical aspects of it.

 

[Elley Mae]

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_...pdate-police-seek-killer-of-two-iowa-cousins/

Black Hawk County sheriff's Capt. Rick Abben said Thursday at a news conference that investigators are "confident" the bodies are those of Lyric and Elizabeth, based on evidence found at the scene and a preliminary investigation. He noted that the bodies are small in stature and authorities "have no one else that's missing in this area."

bbm