IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #22

[Jacie Estes]

All I see is farmland and the city of Readlyn to the west of the area. A few barns or farm houses/homes scattered but large acre farms with fields then the woods around 7 bridges. I think that after the perp(s) left Evansdales city limits, it's pretty much out in the open with scattered homes or whatever here and there. Locals would know better, I'm basing my facts on possibly an antiquated google map at the moment.

jmo

I am really bad at c/p map links but when I Google mapped directions for Evansdale to Wapsie Ridge Golf Club I got these directions. They take you west and the North and drop you down to the area EAST of where the girls were found. I wonder what is the distance from the golf course ot the spot? Could someone who works at the course or who golfs regularly access the site where the girls were found from the course? A golf cart to carry to a certain spot and then bring them in from there by an ATV left for that purpose? Pure speculation on my part...IMHO

Driving directions to Wapsie Ridge Golf Course 3D

from Evansdale, IA

1. Head east on Central Ave toward Lawrence Ave


0.3 mi
2. Turn left onto S Roosevelt Rd


0.3 mi
3. Take the 1st right onto Lafayette Rd


0.9 mi
4. Turn left onto Gilbertville Rd


0.2 mi
5. Continue onto S Elk Run Rd


1.8 mi
6. Turn right onto IA-281 E/Independence Ave


2.0 mi
7. Turn left onto N Raymond Rd


10.0 mi
8. Continue onto County Hwy V49


2.0 mi
9. Turn right onto 260th St


2.1 mi
10. Continue onto Tailor Ave


0.9 mi
11. Continue onto 252nd St


1.6 mi
12. Turn right onto Viking Ave


0.7 mi
13. Slight left onto 260th St


0.5 mi
14. Take the 2nd right onto Vine Ave


0.8 mi

Wapsie Ridge Golf Course
Fairbank, IA

 

[Zuckerschnecke]

I feel very strongly that one girl was the intended target and one was in the wrong place at the wrong time. I don't think we can ignore the signifigance of the dates nor the drug charges. I am posting this old article I stumbled on this morning, not that I'd go off of the Daily Mail but it does give a rough history of the beginning of the case.

I keep feeling like these girls were taken there recently and killed by gunshot. It sounds horrible and I don't know why but I think it was quick and dirty- no sexual motivation or otherwise but a sick revenge killing. Could have easily been under the disguise as hunting if they were seen walking out of there.

Just my thoughts for the day- I'm usually wrong though.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-Elizabeth-Collins-abducted-drug-dealers.html

 

[Jacie Estes]

I just took the map that I Googled the above directions on and set it to satellite view...[again, I am sorry that I am so bad at map links], anyway, it gave me the chills because it is possible to take an ATV or golf cart from the golf course to the spot where they were found.

 

[joerose]

Thank you for that nice comment. I appreciate that. To tell you the truth, I hope that it didn't have anything to do with the drug activity. That would be just horrible on top of horrible. The picture of her father hugging the tree on one of the news sites is heartbreaking. I am sure there are no words to describe his agony and grief.

I feel very strongly that one girl was the intended target and one was in the wrong place at the wrong time. I don't think we can ignore the signifigance of the dates nor the drug charges. I am posting this old article I stumbled on this morning, not that I'd go off of the Daily Mail but it does give a rough history of the beginning of the case.

I keep feeling like these girls were taken there recently and killed by gunshot. It sounds horrible and I don't know why but I think it was quick and dirty- no sexual motivation or otherwise but a sick revenge killing. Could have easily been under the disguise as hunting if they were seen walking out of there.

Just my thoughts for the day- I'm usually wrong though.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-Elizabeth-Collins-abducted-drug-dealers.html

I agree with you. I have the same feeling that one was the target and the other was there and they killed her too. Poor innocent little girls. So sad.

 

[pdxmama]

Speculation is fine, as long as it is stated that it is either that or an opinion, and not thrown out as fact. I know that your speculations are usually worded as questions, and that's good, you're on the right track.
You asked if it were possible that the girls were left there while still alive and possibly died from exposure. Sure... but let's think logically for a minute. Do you believe that once the perp left the spot that these two little girls would have just sat there and starved to death? Assuming that they were not bleeding profusely or both legs were broken, of course.
I don't think so. I think they would have run, walked or even crawled away from that spot and tried to get to someplace where they could get help. In shock, scared and traumatized... sure. But I think instinct kicks in eventually.
And also, consider this: what perp is going to leave his victims alive on the chance that someone might come along and rescue them, OR the chance that the victims can manage to get to a safer place and eventually identify him? Well, some have, of course, but it's really rare, and most of the time it's due to the perp thinking they are dead or very close to it.
Is it possible they were alive when left there? Sure. Is it likely? Not so much, because I don't think they would have survived out there for 5 months. If I am not mistaken, you were asking this because you were attempting to justify their bodies not being completely decomposed, right? So because of the time element, no, they didn't just recently die, unless they were kept somewhere else prior to being taken to that location.
I hope this makes sense.

I'm sorry, in reading back I realized you were not the poster who asked the question of the girls being left there alive. It was another poster, so I apologize for my mistake!!! Hope you will forgive me.

No worries, Txlady! I agree with you 100%.

 

[joerose]

Not sure what happened there.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Here's what I was looking for - Geographic Profiling.


In the late 1980s, on the west coast of Canada, researchers at Simon Fraser University realized that humans follow patterns in their movements. People have mental maps of their surroundings, created through experience and familiarity with the location of sources for their daily needs. This mental map contains access routes to food, school, work, transportation systems, and at the heart of the mental map is their location of primary residence. Psychologists call this theory the principle of least effort.

Around the same time, Kim Rossmo, of the Vancouver Police, started to pursue his Ph.D. in Criminology at the same university. Through an interest in hunting behavior of animals, and his knowledge of the criminal field, Rossmo formed a theory that, like animals, criminal predatory behavior could be predicted. Offenders preferred to use familiar territory for their crimes. However, their anonymity was paramount and so there would be a buffer zone of no criminal activity around their place of primary residence for fear of being recognized. Rossmo also realized that the offender must have come across his victim at some point within his own mental map area. He developed a mathematical algorithm into which he could feed information on the crime and opportunities for interception between victim and offender, and obtain a rough prediction of the area in which the offender likely resided. This mathematical algorithm was subsequently patented by Rossmo and is at the heart of his geographic profiling software.

http://www.enotes.com/geographic-profiling-reference/geographic-profiling

So it's all down to maths. :waitasec:

What I'm wondering, is who would feel comfortable out there in those woods, and also hanging about a town lake?

Comfortable enough to dump the girls, yet believe they will be unseen? And unnoticed in the middle of town while abducting them, too?

ETA: if there's more than one perp, geo profiling will be inaccurate, surely...

 

[GrainneDhu]

Does anyone remember how long it took to recover Caylee Anthony's remains? IMO the Iowa site is much more remote, and contains much more and larger wildlife. Though her bones would have been smaller than the girls', there are two people to recover at this site. Just seems to me they recovered and had enough to autopsy fairly quickly in comparison, though there was no flooding to contend with.

Remains found in the woods here are often sparse..sometimes complete remains are never found. Some have been spread over acres after several months.

Wildlife native to Iowa http://www.extension.iastate.edu/Publications/IAN601.pdf

dadgum, LE has been processing the site since last Wednesday. They said it might be open again Monday but maybe not.

The only large scavenger/hunter in Iowa is the coyote. Almost all of Iowa is coyote and fox territory; they occupy the same environmental niche and coyote will not tolerate fox in their territory.

I'm not familiar with the 7 Bridges Park but just from looking at the photos, I would expect it to be fox territory. Fox like wooded areas and less contact with humans, coyote like more open areas and more contact with humans.

If I'm right about it being fox territory, then the smaller bones may have been scattered but most of the skeleton would still be in place.

Florida is very different from Iowa.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Deer, feral hogs, and other animals bed down in high grass. I researched the feral hog population in Iowa and they seem to be plentiful. They frequent river banks, corn fields, and deserted camping areas foraging for food.. Hogs travel in packs, have an excellent sense of smell, and will excavate the contents of a shallow grave over time.

Most times there are deer/animal trails that run parallel on both sides of rivers & creeks.

Do you have a link for that?

As far as I know, there have been increasing incursions of feral hogs in southern Iowa but well south of where I live (roughly I-80). I haven't heard of any feral hogs as far north as Waterloo.

 

[Jacie Estes]

On the Google map at this link you can see the Seven Bridges area to the left/west of the golf club. I have Google mapped all the areas/directions around the Seven Bridges area and this one has possibilities. No one would think of someone on a course or near one with a golf cart. IMHO

Wapsie Ridge Golf Course

http://www.worldgolf.com/courses/usa/iowa/fairbank/wapsie-ridge-golf-course.html

 

[cfreyja23]

Someone posted an article on the Jessica Ridgeway forum about perps starting out with victims that live close to home and then moving outward, finding victims further and further away from home. In terms of bodies, I wouldn't be surprised if the first body is left far away from home and the last body is closer to home, simply because there would be a comfort zone of being invincible that would make the perp increasingly careless.

This looks to me like a close to home abduction and a far away crime scene ... not perfect, but sophisticated in organization and staging, deception. The person that did this must be smug. This person has done something similar before. He was unavailable from noon on July 13 until late that night. No one starts with abducting two children, leaving their bikes in such a confusing circumstance and leaving their bodies in such a remote location. There has to be a history of abnormal behavior that someone noticed ... injured animals, comments that degrade, business in Evansdale on the morning of July 13, knows the backroads,

Great post! Did you know that the BTK killer, Denis Rader, actually murdered a woman who lived on the same street? That's how cocky that sob was, but luckily that arrogance is what led to his capture.

 

[Marilynilpa]

I was afraid of that.

Time to fire up my keyboard. <sigh>

This comment makes no sense to me:

"Sorenson feels strongly that if the Evansdale girls&#8217; kidnapper knew he or she would face death if caught and convicted, the girls might not have been killed."

BBM

:waitasec:Really? Someone kidnaps two little girls, which would mean life in prison if caught, IMO. But that same person would not kill them if he knew he'd face the death penalty?

I hope cooler heads prevail in this situation. If any legislation is going to take place as a result of Lyric and Lizzie's deaths, let it be something that will be a positive reflection upon them. JMO

ETA: Here's the link to the article in case someone missed my earlier post:

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/ar...-deaths-lead-talk-reviving-death-penalty-Iowa

 

[pearl]

I don't think horses would have been used to carry the girls. My family raised cattle and had working horses. The horses were uneasy and nervous when there was a dead animal around them. If they were in a pasture, they would huddle together. If they were in a barn, there would be a lot of nervous movement. When this happened, we usually found a dead cow or calf in a nearby pasture. I don't think a horse would carry a dead person unless it had been trained to do so. Putting a deceased person on an unprepared horse would, in my opinion, unleash a whirlwind of trouble. The horse might do everything it its power to unload that burden. If you have seen a totally out of control horse, it is a force to be reckoned with. Of course, I might be wrong and a horse could be what was used. Just posting my thoughts.

 

[nikb]

Mod Warning:

Whoa. I've been <snipping> and removing the snarky comments. Stop it now. We're moderators, not editors.

Post respectfully. There is no reason for some of these rude comments.

THANK YOU Beach!! I missed a lot of it I think (thankfully), but even the little bit I did see had my jaw hitting the floor. That had to be a massive editing job. I've gotten spoiled posting here where things are so respectful 99.9% of the time, and I know we have you and the other mods to thank for it staying that way.

 

[GrainneDhu]

It actually amazes me they were found this fast-like, it may have taken forever if the hunters walked just a few feet in a different direction. There are no guarantees that other hunters would be walking in the same area.

It's very possible other hunters moved through the area but didn't happen to walk in exactly the right place to see the girls' bodies.

 

[Dr. Know?]

That's what I think. If from the blown up picture Otto posted, the trail was higher, and the grass whether green or dying off was as tall as it appears in the picture, with no trail coming in from the other side of that area, well, I can see it being missed.

I think of it as standing on one mountain looking at another. I can see way more at the base & slope of the one I'm looking at than the one I'm standing on. iykwim...

I wonder if the hunters came in from the end of the road where the LE were parked and walked in from the back to where the girls were found. You could see them much better it appears. jmo

 

[GrainneDhu]

What is nh3?

Anhydrous ammonia. It's a fertiliser.

 

[GrainneDhu]

I still really like the the theory proposed by another member earlier today. Bodies on back of ATV. I then speculated they were rolled off atop an incliine and came to rest where they did. Thats still my working theory.

(For now, tomorrow who the heck knows.)

I don't see any incline where the two white sheets are but that may be my vision impairment.

I wouldn't use an ATV to place the bodies in that area because ATVs break down the weeds and grasses, leave a huge, honkin' obvious trail. When people walk through that waist high brush, it bends over for awhile and then springs back up. No trail after a couple hours.

 

[B4igo2it]

This is a few miles away from where the girls were found:

Sunday, October 7 2012, 05:48 PM CDT


The Jones County Seriffs Office responded to the Wapsipinicon River near the 65th Avenue bridge, about five miles south of Wyoming.
Deputies were told a small jon boat had capsized after getting stuck on a tree snag.
Two men were reportedly on the boat, both wearing heavy coveralls due to the weather, and neither one wearing life jackets.
60-year-old Douglas Berkhoff of Davenport was taken to the Maquoketa Hospital for non-lifethreatening injuries.
52-year-old Wylie Tredway of Wyoming was recovered a short time after emergency responders arrived, and he was pronounced dead at the scene.
This accident is still under investigation.


http://www.cbs2iowa.com/shared/newsroom/top_stories/videos/kgan_vid_12855.shtml

good find & may be important .... :what:

 

[TeenyTaurus]

If the perp had a vehicle parked at that turn-around spot, which is fairly close to where those white covers are, I don't find it unreasonable at all that he could have carried even Lyric into that spot on foot. Add in what was most likely a fair dose of adrenaline, it would be more than reasonable. That's assuming the girls were taken there after being murdered. They also could have been forced on their own two feet, alive. We just don't know yet.