IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #23

[TeenyTaurus]

What a nice thought, I wish I knew how to make it happen.

Maybe start a collection for two digital photo frames, for each family? I dunno, I'd donate to that with PayPal. Have some sunset photos included somehow? They could then add whatever they wanted, as well.
Maybe contact the Facebook page(s)? Go through a local business to make it happen?

 

[Foxfire]

This came from the NG page on FB posted by Mary Wille Close:
The thing I don't understand is there was a lady that posted to a community page on Facebook telling people the day after they disappered that she was going to search the 7 bridges park and wanted people to go with her and that police should look there now why aren't they looking at her as a suspect since she obviously knew where to look. I don't think it was a coencedence that she said that.
This was posted on Monday around 7:02pm.

emiusacska, I am going to respectively disagree with the FB poster's comment.
Imo, the most likely/obvious place that should have been searched for the missing girls on day one would have been bodies of water, campsites, abandoned houses, barns, as well as large tracts of forest land including County, State, and Federal Parks.. within a 25 mile radius. The Seven Bridges park should have been a no brainer for investigators and DNR Rangers to focus. Many, if not most missing/murdered victims are located by hunters. Hunters, tend to hunt in the forest...

 

[nikb]

There have been a lot of conversation about Lyrics size and when menstrual cycles start, gun shots and blood in soil and I don't want to be snarky, but I am lost on the significance of either conversation. I am just feeling that I am missing the importance of these. There has been no reports of a gun being used, I don't know what blood of the girls in the soil would prove and Lyric was obviously a kid. I'm not saying these aren't valid conversations; I just am not following and want to understand why so much has been posted on these topics so I can play along.

Hi MNDad, I know that I already saw at least a couple of replies that it's mostly because we just don't have much to talk about right now, other than Elizabeth's beautiful celebration today.

Regarding your questions above here's what I've taken from it:

- Lyric's size - I think mainly because of the distance from the road where the girls were found, some were thinking that she'd be harder to carry that far. Especially if they were carried and not walked in, and if it was someone acting alone.

- Menstrual cycles - not totally sure on this but I think it has to do with Elizabeth appearing so "little girlie" and Lyric appearing a bit more mature, suggesting she might've been closer to her 'cycle' starting. If (and that's a big if IMO) it was a sexually motivated crime, they seem like fairly different "types" so it might tell us something about who did this, or motivation.

- Gun shots - I think this all just came from speculation about what may have happened to them, and whether or not gun shots would even be audible or noticed there anyway. AFAIK there is absolutely nothing indicating COD at this point.

- Blood in soil - yuck, it sickens me to type this, but I think it helps establish whether the crime happened there or somewhere else. Is this the murder site, or is there another crime scene they need to find?

Just my thoughts.

 

[NWLady]

I was not able to watch the live coverage tonight of either the Life & Love Celebration or the coverage prior to it, and I cannot find anything on the news links except the Life & Love Celebration; nothing of the coverage beforehand? Could someone please provide a link? I would greatly appreciate it.

 

[GrainneDhu]

We have the death penalty here in SD and we don't have the crimes that other states have. We just executed one that raped an 8 year old 22 years ago and while he was raping the poor little thing he was stabbing her at the same time. Maybe it will take harsher laws being implemented to get this people to think twice about what their doing.

Respectfully, South Dakota covers over 77K square miles with a population of 824K. That's not a lot of people spread out over a lot of land (very beautiful land, I add).

Iowa has 56K square miles and just over 3 million people.

One of the major factors in crime rate is population density. Your population density is quite low.

I lived through the 80s, when "getting tough on crime" was practically a mantra on politician's lips. They increased the penalties for all sorts of crimes, with the result that 30 years later, the US has more people in jail or prison per capita of any industrialised nation. And yet it didn't reduce the crime rate, particularly not drug related crime which is what most of those new penalties were aimed at.

The politicians overlooked a very simple fact: the vast majority of criminals do not intend to be caught, so the penalties are immaterial to them. They take precautions not to be caught and they're usually surprised when they are caught.

I'd say that our social experiment has had a chance to run its course and maybe, just maybe, it's time to try something different.

 

[GrainneDhu]

There was a post earlier today by WolfDreamer asking if it would be possible for blood to still be in the soil. No one answered the question, so I bumped it up because I felt it was interesting and I didn't know the answer. If you'll read back a few posts, you'll find WolfDreamer's post.

No one said anything about it identifying the killer, IIRC.

ETA: My post was #1288, if that helps you any.

Yes, it is.

I can't remember the victim's name or the killer's but it was on the BBC. I think. The victim was thought for several months to have simply moved out of the home she shared with her boyfriend and her friends came forward to say she'd been talking about a man she'd met that she really fancied. Her family went along with that for a couple months but became suspicious when she didn't get in touch with them.

Something like a year later, LE took samples of the dirt from their back yard and found that it had been soaked in human blood. Most of the samples were too degraded to match to her mother's mtDNA but they did get a match on one.

The prosecutor successfully argued that the amount of blood found in the back yard was inconsistent with continuing life. So even though they never found a body and despite the testimony of the friends that the victim was seeing a new man, there was a conviction.

 

[nikb]

I know that. Still you look and ask!

One of my concerns is, if this was simple, it would already be solved with
perp(s) in jail. That does not appear to be the trend so far ... so you dig
and cover all bases.

These girls are worth it! On the off chance there might be some evidence somewhere, you
look and ask - we dont have the autopsy - the 3,450-ish hours could boil down to 6-8 hours or 24-48 hours between a few dates .

Sorry, I submitted my other reply before I saw this one. Catching up. Still pretty emotional from Elizabeth's celebration earlier.

I agree, ask! For sure. And now that we know where they were found, maybe it'll jog someone's memory, or prompt someone to check any surveillance footage. Maybe even more recent footage, in case the perp/perps have been back there as some have wondered. I just wish it was more likely that something would still be on tape if they were in fact killed shortly after they were abducted as the reporter said (in the Livestream feed, not on air AFAIK).

 

[GrainneDhu]

There have been a lot of conversation about Lyrics size and when menstrual cycles start, gun shots and blood in soil and I don't want to be snarky, but I am lost on the significance of either conversation. I am just feeling that I am missing the importance of these. There has been no reports of a gun being used, I don't know what blood of the girls in the soil would prove and Lyric was obviously a kid. I'm not saying these aren't valid conversations; I just am not following and want to understand why so much has been posted on these topics so I can play along.

We're rambling, as often happens when there's a lull in a hot case. We've already chewed over the available information from LE (plus information from very unreliable msm sources <cough> Lieberman), so now people are speculating.

The whole age of menarche thing got started as people were speculating whether Lyric and Elizabeth might both appeal to the same pedophile, which morphed into "just how adult did Lyric look, anyway?"

The gun shot thing morphed from speculating as to means of death, which was a branch of "could the perp abduct two girls without a gun?"

The blood thing came from speculation that the 7 Bridges site was a dump site utilised after the girls had been killed. One possible means of figuring it out would be to take samples from all over the clearing to see if there was blood anywhere other than under or right next to each body.

 

[nikb]

I think we're in the minority right now, folks would be happy to see this guy swing and I don't blame them.

I can absolutely understand the hatred and wish for revenge.

Heather and Drew have no hate, nor wish for revenge, and I think they are the ones whos lead should be followed. We can't be vengeful on behalf of people who so clearly do not wish for revenge.

:moo:

I don't want to get all sidetracked into a political debate (personally - everyone else go right ahead if you want and it's within TOS, of course). But I did want to share this because it surprised me:

http://www.kcrg.com/news/local/Family-of-Elizabeth-Collins-Speak-About-Case-183431901.html

Snippet: "Drew Collins, who supports the death penalty, said the experience with Elizabeth did not change his views. “I’ve always believed in it,” he said. "

 

[GrainneDhu]

It sounds like the wild west with the relaxed attitudes towards gunshots.

And yet the crime rate in rural areas is relatively low.

Not, I hasten to add, because of guns but because population density is a significant factor in crime rate.

Also, if you live out in the country, most people tend to have the attitude of "whatever floats their boat, just don't get me involved in it." Which is one reason why loose dogs is such a hot button issue; it violates the whole "don't get me involved" thing. Good neighbours don't do things that cause their neighbours problems.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Is anyone surprised that the $150,000-$200,000 hasn't gotten the monster arrested? What do you think it means that nobody has turned the monster in for this huge sum?

Doesn't surprise me because I think the perp is a lone wolf type. He may associate with other people but he doesn't have close friends. I think many of the people who know him think he's a bit weird but they would never guess he would do anything violent.

I also think that the person who has the little teeny piece of information to link all this together has not the faintest idea that what they know is important. It may not even be anything illegal, just knowing that someone was or wasn't in a certain place at a certain time.

 

[nikb]

I got to thinking about all of those sunsets, all over, and wonder how many might have snapped a photo? Wouldn't it be cool if those that did sent them to, say, someone who would collect and present them to the family? Even just a few around the country... or world. Pink and purple sunsets.
<sigh>

What a weird coincidence that you just posted this. I logged into FB a bit ago and a bunch of my friends - many of whom knew little bout Elizabeth and Lyric except maybe what was in MSM - posted sunset pictures today! Unbelievable. Here are two, one from central CA and one from Hawaii.

(hopefully these links work)

 

[GrainneDhu]

BBM

On what is the bolded statement based?

We know for a fact that the bodies were found by hunters that happened to be in the area.

And Snufamombobball (hope I got the spelling right) posted that she knows the two hunters in question.

 

[nikb]

Maybe start a collection for two digital photo frames, for each family? I dunno, I'd donate to that with PayPal. Have some sunset photos included somehow? They could then add whatever they wanted, as well.
Maybe contact the Facebook page(s)? Go through a local business to make it happen?

Great idea!!! I know that they have some sort of connection with a printing company. I'm not sure if photos fall under what they do, but they've done shirts and I believe magnets. Someplace with good equipment had to print the stickers used on the race car, too.

I so wish I had good slideshow making skills, because I think an online slideshow with captions showing the different locations could be really neat, and could also be mailed to them on DVDs. Depending on how tech-savvy they are and compatability, maybe even Re-Writeable DVDs so they could add things like you suggested. There's some great audio out there that could be used too I'd think - Lizzie's favorite song from today's celebration for example. Gah I'm just not very good at those slideshows and unfortunately no longer have the software from my old computer that made it pretty easy. I couldn't even touch it til after the holidays and I'd be lucky to get it done anytime soon.

Hmmm... Heather mentions scrapbooking quite a bit. Might it be simpler to collect the photos, have them printed, and mail to her if she wants to include in Lizzie's scrapbook? Or a hard copy thing like those Shutterfly albums? Those I can handle if I can get help gathering photos.

Don't know, just throwing ideas around. I think it's a wonderful suggestion!!

I'm still in awe of all the beautiful sunsets today.

 

[nikb]

I was not able to watch the live coverage tonight of either the Life & Love Celebration or the coverage prior to it, and I cannot find anything on the news links except the Life & Love Celebration; nothing of the coverage beforehand? Could someone please provide a link? I would greatly appreciate it.

I wish I could! There was a good 60-75 minutes of "Livestream" coverage before it, showing the visitation part and with some general background chatter. It's that streaming stuff they show sometimes before press conferences where it seems like people sometimes forget that the "off air" stuff is also being shown. I tried but I couldn't figure out a way to record it. I don't recall ever seeing links posted to those Livestream things before. I'll keep looking, or hopefully someone else can help.

 

[georger]

And Snufamombobball (hope I got the spelling right) posted that she knows the two hunters in question.

Question: Early on the FBI stated they thought there was an "out of the State of Iowa" connection.

Whatever happened to that?

This was during the same period when the FBI was stating they thought the girls were still alive... the FBI had come down hard on Dan, even said publically Dan was not cooperating etc etc etc ... then the socalled "out of State connection theory" vanished?

What happened?

 

[GrainneDhu]

Question: Early on the FBI stated they thought there was an "out of the State of Iowa" connection.

Whatever happened to that?

This was during the same period when the FBI was stating they thought the girls were still alive... the FBI had come down hard on Dan, even said publically Dan was not cooperating etc etc etc ... then the socalled "out of State connection theory" vanished?

What happened?

I have no idea.

I recall that many WS'ers (including me) were a little cynical about the FBI claim that the girls were still alive. If you follow many cases, you learn that in the US that particular claim can mean just that LE has not found any evidence of death, therefore the victim(s) may still be alive.

It appears the cynical among us were correct in this case.

As I recall, DM and MCM went through a period of less than 24 hours where they said they were not going to cooperate any more and they weren't going to talk to the media. In less than 48 hours, LE said they were cooperating again.

My own theory is that we're talking about two people who do not have great coping skills and who were under the sort of stress that can make even people with stellar coping skills fall apart. They were terrified, worried and hadn't had any sleep to speak of. So they freaked out a bit, which probably helped them get some sleep (once you tell the police to contact you only through your lawyer, the police are bound by that unless they have an arrest warrant for you). Then they went back to cooperating.

One theory that appeals to the cynic in me is that the FBI was trying to justify remaining on the case; by invoking an "across state lines" theory, they automatically get jurisdiction. Once it became clear to the FBI that this was going to be a long, hard, inglorious slog, they went back to their offices. Maybe I'm wrong. But maybe agencies with a long, documented history of being publicity hogs earn themselves a little bit of cynicism in the public eye.

 

[CarmelEyesD]

http://www.kwwl.com/story/20342923/...00-people-celebrate-life-of-elizabeth-collins

video link

Click on the one that says Life and Love Service for Elizabeth

 

[Wolf Dreamer]

I'm bumping this post up because I feel it was a good question, and one I don't know the answer to. Does anyone know the answer? Thanks.

Hiya Marilyn - I found my own answer in this interesting document. Blood can be detected for over a year in soil.

http://www.informaticaforense.us/detectingblood.pdf

 

[chicagofa13]

This is so refreshing to read.

Finally someone who shares my views.

The DP is inhumane and only applies to poor people.

It's archaic and disregards every morality or compassion we have, ironic in such a religious country.

The US also practices it illegally in the eyes of the rest of the world as it violates the Geneva Convention protocols.

I don't believe the DP is a deterrent to anyone who has their mind set on murder or other violence. I never have. I don't think the DP in Iowa would have made any difference for these girls.

Putting aside this case, I'm not for the DP simply because too many errors are made. I had my cousin murdered in a home invasion shooting (my aunt and uncle were also against the DP in that case) and a close friend stalked and gunned down in a parking lot. Lots of thoughts have gone through my head because all of those criminals ARE guilty but I still remained against it.

OTOH, I'm very much pro LWOP and countries with no LWOP offend ME. They put the rights of the 'poor criminal' over the victims. Simply serving 10 to 25 for murder doesn't cut it. But that is how a lot of supposedly civilized countries operate. No one has a perfect system, and improvements need to be made in how crimes are prioritized and sentenced. People in the US can serve more time for selling dope than a person serves for murder in another country. Unreal.

Eta: I do realize the DP is used for bargaining and if it is not available for the most heinous crimes,, what do we bargain with? Lwop? That is unacceptable to me in most cases. Sigh.