IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #23

[TeenyTaurus]

I hate to say this, but after listening to Heather and hearing her say that she didn't feel she needed counseling like the rest of the family because she feels she can pray, I feel like she is seriously in denial. My heart goes out to this family, but in all honesty when it finally hits Heather its going to hit her hard I'm afraid.

Mm hm...

 

[tlcya]

Off topic:
I just took a visit up to cedar valley mugshots and my head can't stop shaking!
I thought lafayette looked bad on fb but now I see its everywhere,
I came here in my safe place to say,
Why is everyone calling everyone names?
Can't we disagree with class?!
.... I could not ask them lest the death threats would follow,
It saddens me and gives me a headache to read...
Thanks for hearing my rant minus the craziness!
I've been here the whole time,
I love everyone of y'all that has continued to post here,
I am a silent stranger to you but I've been lurking and I appreciate having a place to come to that helps me not to have to wonder by myself.
My friends and family act like their not tired off hearing case details every single day for years, but I know they don't want to hear it and can't tell me to shut up bc of the sensitive subject matter. I'm think

:welcome: home!

Good post. Websleuths is chockfull of people who do a lot of wondering and pondering and puzzling

 

[MotherOcean]

On Carbuff's map, shoes found at "J".
Can someone explain or point me onto the right thread to find the info about finding their shoes?
Somehow I have missed this.
Thanks for any help.

You will have to go back to the first thread. A shoe was found on 7/17 during one of the searches that was going on during those first few days. There was a lot of confusion back then over the shoes that Lyric was wearing. The family first gave several different descriptions of the shoes that she may have had on the day that the girls were abducted. I really don't think we ever got an absolute definitive description of Lyric's shoes from the family. We do not know if the shoe that was found had any connection to the girls at all. It was never said by LE or by the media that it was connected to either of them. I tried to go back and pull something up for you but couldn't find anything that really explained it. You may want to search "shoe" in the first couple of threads and see what comes up.

 

[watcher9]

I agree w/everything you said.

BBM - I would like to add that, from my experience, you can catch a strong ordor of decomp while walking through fields over grown with high brush, weeds, and small trees. You can search around and around the areas where scent is strongest and find nothing.

You can happen to be walking through that general area later, and w/out noticing an ordor, accidentally walk right up to a dead deer/cow...

Now, IMO, anybody searching for human remains would, of course, keep looking for source of decomp ordor until they found it!

Rattlesnakes can also give off an odor that smells like something dead where they have crawled so I would think you would have to be very careful where you walked.

 

[carbuff]

On Carbuff's map, shoes found at "J".
Can someone explain or point me onto the right thread to find the info about finding their shoes?
Somehow I have missed this.
Thanks for any help.

I don't have a citation for that -- I got it off Hollye's case map. I suspect it's a red herring.

 

[callyn]

Wow! I wonder if I some funky growth disorder? I was certainly several inches away from my full height when I entered puberty.

My dad had a weird thing where he grew a shocking 6 or 7 inches in a single year during early adolescence to reach his full height if 6'6". He had some pretty severe joint issues,though that required surgeries to his shoulders, hips and knees while a young adult.

I had no such problems. Still.......hmmmmmm

The same thing happened to my brother. I had never heard of anyone else having this happen. He is 6'3" now. I remember he took some sort of medication to slow the growth. I was a kid and haven't a clue what it was. He also has had lots of joint issues and severe pain in his legs. Long, long torso. We used to tease him about it.

Sorry for the OT, but I was really interested to hear of another person with this problem.

 

[watcher9]

You will have to go back to the first thread. A shoe was found on 7/17 during one of the searches that was going on during those first few days. There was a lot of confusion back then over the shoes that Lyric was wearing. The family first gave several different descriptions of the shoes that she may have had on the day that the girls were abducted. I really don't think we ever got an absolute definitive description of Lyric's shoes from the family. We do not know if the shoe that was found had any connection to the girls at all. It was never said by LE or by the media that it was connected to either of them. I tried to go back and pull something up for you but couldn't find anything that really explained it. You may want to search "shoe" in the first couple of threads and see what comes up.

I don't have a citation for that -- I got it off Hollye's case map. I suspect it's a red herring.

Thanks.
You gave me enough info that I remember it now.
Back then I too was thinking it probably didn't pertain to the case because of the location and I guess I put it right out of my mind. You reminded me.
We have never had confirmation one way or another from LE.

 

[Pensfan]

I hate to say this, but after listening to Heather and hearing her say that she didn't feel she needed counseling like the rest of the family because she feels she can pray, I feel like she is seriously in denial. My heart goes out to this family, but in all honesty when it finally hits Heather its going to hit her hard I'm afraid.

Good friends (those who don't violate confidentiality, are mentally healthy, listen attentively, and respond with kindness and objectivity) can be as valuable as the most reputable therapist. Heather probably has excellent close friends who function as her therapist.

 

[not_my_kids]

There are pedophiles who might like that Lyric is almost adult size, but is still a child. No matter what her body looks like, they know that they are assaulting a little girl.

And the exact opposite holds true, as well. My niece was hit with precocious puberty. Her cycles started at 9, and by 11, she had DD's. She looked a lot like Lyric too, to the point that I had to take a break from this case, because every time I would see Lyric's picture, I would want to cry, imagining my niece.

Anyway, because she was a big girl and starting to develop, even at 9 and 10, when she was getting taller, we woul dhave to have stern discussions with some of the older teen and young adult men that hung out around my sisters. They knew her age, and that didn't stop many of them from making inappropriate comments, and even flat out propositioning her. To them, she looked like an adult, and therefore, should think like one and be open to adult things. it was disgusting, but I guess it's just the breaks of being larger of stature and uh, well endowed. (I wouldn't know, I'm 27, still shop in juniors, get carded for everything, and had to have hormone shots to jump start my body to do what it was supposed to do. Five kids ago they thought I might be sterile, LOL.)

 

[gngr~snap]

The same thing happened to my brother. I had never heard of anyone else having this happen. He is 6'3" now. I remember he took some sort of medication to slow the growth. I was a kid and haven't a clue what it was. He also has had lots of joint issues and severe pain in his legs. Long, long torso. We used to tease him about it.

Sorry for the OT, but I was really interested to hear of another person with this problem.

(COULD ) be Marphans. I MAY have spelled it wrong it affects men differently than women...

Be back with link!
MARFANS SYNDROME

http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/mobileart.asp?articlekey=411&page=2

Naw ... that is just tall stature... sorry!

Ok some joint issues too...

 

[TeenyTaurus]

Five kids ago they thought I might be sterile, LOL.)

So much for THAT theory! I'd hate to be on the losing end of an argument with you, dear! LOL j/k You go, girl!

 

[otto]

Her feet were done growing...her spine was not but IMO she was moving into another phase her legs may have even been done growing.. her spine? maybe not~ that is where the last few inches come from
my own professional opinion....

"Early maturing girls also experienced their adolescent growth spurt sooner than did girls who had their first period at age 12 or older, the study’s lead author said. Karen Remsberg, PhD, an assistant professor at Ohio University College of Osteopathic Medicine, said these early growth changes would encourage premature skeletal maturation"

http://www.endo-society.org/media/ENDO-07/research/Early-onset-of-menstruation.cfm

"Estrogen exposure leads to growth plate closure, or the stage at which bones stop growing in length, as well as to mineral packing in bone. Studies have associated early menarcheal age with increased bone density. Some research has also associated early menarcheal age with shorter stature and greater percent body fat as an adult, while later menarcheal age is associated with taller stature and leaner body composition"

http://sdstate.edu/news/menarcheal-age.cfm

"Once the ovaries are mature, the legs have generally finished growing. Any increase in height after periods have begun, usually comes just from the torso. A general rule is that a girl will grow no more than 6cm after her first period."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbody/body/articles/lifecycle/teenagers/girl_s_growth.shtml

So girls continuing growing well after puberty, but there is a small group of "early maturing girls" that do stop growing after puberty.

There have been several exceptions to the 6 cm (2.54 cm/in) posted here, so I'm inclined to think that the "early maturing girls", perhaps like those found in mountainous areas of Northern Guatemala; where the average height is 4"11", stop growing after puberty, but the long legged Eurpean descendants perhaps grow 5 inches after puberty.

Thanks for the links. There are separate British human factors scales because, as a general group, British people are shorter than US (European descendant) human factors scales. A bbc human body program may look at growth hormones in beef, or hobbit reasons to explain the separate British height scales ... but what I remember is that girls and boys continue growing until 20. I'll look for a reference tomorrw ... need to remember where I read it.

 

[otto]

Very interesting, indeed. It also fits with many other studies I've read about. Some key parts in it...

" When the child is between the ages of 5 and 12, the suspect is most often male, a close friend or a stranger, sexually compulsive, killing using means such as strangling."

"Analysis of 621 cases representing 44 states across the USA showed that in 44% of the cases the victim was deceased within one hour post abduction. Within three hours, 74% of victims were dead."

" They report studies which conclude in the majority of cases (72%), the radius from body recovery site to murder scene is less than 200 feet. The distribution was different when it came to journey from the initial contact setting to the murder site: 31% travelled 0-199 feet, whereas 43% trekked 1.5-12 miles."

"... the killers are usually at the initial contact site for legitimate reasons. They either lived in the area or were engaging in some routine. She also reports most child abduction murders are opportunistic. Only in 14 percent of cases was the victim picked out because of some physical characteristic. The initial contact site is within 1/4 mile of the victim's last known location in 80% of cases."

"In fact, US data suggests well over half of abductions that led to murder took place within three city blocks of the victim's home and approximately one-third within one-half block."

"Heide, Beauregard and Myers describe a personality profile of a typical extra-familial perpetrator - shy, anxious, reserved, feeling inferior; taking refuge in fantasy, where they become omnipotent and powerful. But the more they take flight into the imagination, the more real it becomes. This imaginary world gets so familiar, it's inevitably enacted.

As a result of this secret inner world, family, neighbours, and friends never guess who is capable of such a crime."

Hm...

"They report studies which conclude in the majority of cases (72%), the radius from body recovery site to murder scene is less than 200 feet. The distribution was different when it came to journey from the initial contact setting to the murder site: 31% travelled 0-199 feet, whereas 43% trekked 1.5-12 miles."

In this case, we have approximately 20 miles. Did you happen to notice what percentage of perps leave the body up to 20 miles away?

That's interesting.

"... the killers are usually at the initial contact site for legitimate reasons. They either lived in the area or were engaging in some routine. The initial contact site is within 1/4 mile of the victim's last known location in 80% of cases."

In this case, it was 1 mile from where they were last seen on video ... roughly one mile from home (video) to Meyers Lake.

The fact that the abduction (bikes) and bodies were 1 to 20 miles away, rather than what is common in up to 75% of cases ... what does "much farther away than the norm" that tell us?

 

[gngr~snap]

So girls continuing growing well after puberty, but there is a small group of "early maturing girls" that do stop growing after puberty.

There have been several exceptions to the 6 cm (2.54 cm/in) posted here, so I'm inclined to think that the "early maturing girls", perhaps like those found in mountainous areas of Northern Guatemala; where the average height is 4"11", stop growing after puberty, but the long legged Eurpean descendants perhaps grow 5 inches after puberty.

Thanks for the links. There are separate British human factors scales because, as a general group, British people are shorter than US (European descendant) human factors scales. A bbc human body program may look at growth hormones in beef, or hobbit reasons to explain the separate British height scales ... but what I remember is that girls and boys continue growing until 20. I'll look for a reference tomorrw ... need to remember where I read it.

Actually the AAP American Academy of Pediatrics has started charting people of different heritage on different graphs. Asains grow differently from typical Americans as do people form Mexico and Alaska ... Just look at baby pics from different races... We all grow a little differently

 

[otto]

Teenytaurus posed an interesting question regarding establishing a sexual assault if the bodies had been there. Wouuld there be DNA?

I would thnk it would be harder to establish without DNA but nude bodies with tattered clothng nearby. Clothing in obvious disaray while still on the bodies, would help to build a more circumstatial cases.

Caution UNSETTLING CLINICAL IMAGERY AHEAD

I saw an episode of dateline or 48 hours where it was determined because the pants were still on the skeletal remains but pulled down around the ankles and undergarment was torn off.

That would seem unlikely to me. Not sure the assault would have happened there at 7 Bridges.

Really good question to ponder.

Thanks teeny.

I doubt that there was DNA. The bodies had most likely been there too long. There probably was sexual assault, as Drew said. The assault probably occurred at 7 Bridges County Park on July 13, when the family has reported that Elizabeth passed away.

 

[gngr~snap]

Ok guys I am done with the o/t...

Prayers to all of Lyric and Lizzie's family and friends...
Good night .

 

[rachaellouise]

hate that it appears LE is no closer to finding who did this than they were at the start.

 

[otto]

This is the only comment I will make and I do so having elected not to watch the video or read the statements made. For now. The only thing I know of this interiew comes from you good folks.

They are shunning this man. They have turned over him, his apprehension, all of it to their strong faith in God.

They refuse to allow Elizabeth to be dominated by the ugliness of this "who cares" in death.

I am a fan of shunning. It is hard but healthy IMO reaction to the circumstance.

ETA watching their grief or even read tbeir words feels intrusive to me right now. Totally llogical. The sleuth in me should be ready to jump in on that conversation. I just don't know that I can go to that intimate a place with them and remain objective. Cant explaiin why.

That's exactly the sense I get from the first part of the interview ... that they are shunning him. Heather has it under control ... strong for her daughter and children. Drew seemed to glance to Heather for strength each time the reporter mentioned the "what happened". I think that it tears him apart and that he looks to Heather to give him strength to look past it and remember Elizabeth as a vibrant, lively, full of laughter, sneaking ice cream with mom, child. I think that the reporter should have lightened up on the "what if" angle ... it was below the belt.

 

[otto]

On Carbuff's map, shoes found at "J".
Can someone explain or point me onto the right thread to find the info about finding their shoes?
Somehow I have missed this.
Thanks for any help.

The girls were identified because their shoes were found with their bodies.

 

[TeenyTaurus]

"They report studies which conclude in the majority of cases (72%), the radius from body recovery site to murder scene is less than 200 feet. The distribution was different when it came to journey from the initial contact setting to the murder site: 31% travelled 0-199 feet, whereas 43% trekked 1.5-12 miles."

In this case, we have approximately 20 miles. Did you happen to notice what percentage of perps leave the body up to 20 miles away?

That's interesting.

"... the killers are usually at the initial contact site for legitimate reasons. They either lived in the area or were engaging in some routine. The initial contact site is within 1/4 mile of the victim's last known location in 80% of cases."

In this case, it was 1 mile from where they were last seen on video ... roughly one mile from home (video) to Meyers Lake.

The fact that the abduction (bikes) and bodies were 1 to 20 miles away, rather than what is common in up to 75% of cases ... what does "much farther away than the norm" that tell us?

Well, IMO, these are first off generalizations, stats gathered from other cases, and therefore not facts in this particular case.

As to the distance of 20+ miles where the bodies were, Iowa there is pretty rural and widespread, which is also much rarer than more urban settings that most of these cases are then drawn from. The location also indicated a familiarity to the perp, it seems, as there was little effort to completely conceal the bodies.

I will respectfully disagree on where the abduction took place that day, as there is no substantial proof that the two girls were ever even near Meyers Lake, where their bicycles and purse were found. As a location of opportunity, then, I would say where they were last positively seen, both by WC and a surveillance film, would fit much better, IMHO. This area also lends itself ideal for the all under "initial contact sight."

Again, however, the portions I clipped were merely what I found interesting in cases where children are murdered. This one, in its entirety:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/dr-raj-persaud/child-protection_b_1950749.html