IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #24

[foxbluff]

AP: Top 10 Iowa stories of 2012
Published 11:06 AM CST Dec 24, 2012
DES MOINES, Iowa -
#One: MISSING COUSINS — The bodies of two young cousins are found in a Bremer County park, five months after they were last seen riding their bikes in Evansdale. The disappearance of Lyric Cook and Elizabeth Collins prompted a huge search by local authorities and the FBI. No one has been charged in their deaths. <snipped>


http://www.kcci.com/news/central-io...7080/17887936/-/3ij383z/-/index.html#comments

 

[otto]

Even though the girls were abducted in Evansdale, I'm wondering if Readlyn is more local to the person(s) that murdered the girls. I did read somewhere that people that do this do sometimes leave victims close enough to home in order to get home quickly.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Ok...thinking along these lines...would the ME be able to determine if this WAS an accident IF their remains had degraded to bones? Say the girls were off their bikes and were hit by a vehicle? One could assume you would be able to tell broken bones maybe?

Say someone DID drown them (be it at Meyers Lake or even at 7 bridges) with malicious intent, would LE be able to determine that IF the remains were bones?

Also...maybe it's just me, but if LE felt this was an accident where someone had panicked I feel maybe LE would be more inclined to tell the family that...and even maybe play on the emotions of the perp? Probably not (because it is STILL a crime)...but maybe the perp would be more likely to come forward if LE released a statement such as "it has been determined that the death of Lyric and Elizabeth could be the result of a horrible accident where someone possibly panicked and disposed of their bodies" (or something along these lines).

Now, I don't think this is a case of accident, but if it were I would hope LE would tell the family as much and even maybe make a statement indicating they don't feel this was an intentional murder.:dunno:

IF there were an accident and IF the remains were completely skeletonized, then only an accident that injured the bones would show up. I think any car/bicyclist or pedestrian accident severe enough to cause immediate death would cause fractures.

Death by drowning doesn't leave evidence on the skeleton unless maybe (very farfetched scenario) there was some sort of junk in the body of water such as a junked car, the victim got a limb caught in that car and broke bones frantically flailing to get free. But in that case, the body would not have come to the surface again right away. And for two girls to meet the same fate seems unlikely to me, unless the one girl was barely under the surface of the water, the other girl tried to help her and was also pulled under.

But then I feel like it's getting into the realm of alien abduction in terms of likelihood.

It seems pretty clear from Drew and Heather's interviews that they believe the girls were the victims of a sexually motivated murder. I don't know where they would get that idea except from LE.

 

[GrainneDhu]

The river near Meyers Lake does not appear to be the same river as the one in 7 Bridges County Park, but perhaps someone local can answer that better.

SBM

Your maps are awesome as usual, Otto.

The river by Evansdale is the Cedar River.

The river in 7 Bridges Park is the Wapsipinicon.

There is no connection except by going down one all the way to the Mississippi River and using that to go to the mouth of the other. In other words, a trip of several hundred miles by river, interrupted by many dams.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Thank you Otto for the maps, that's very helpful, you do a wonderful job!

chelsea6, thank you also for all your input and ideas and maybe you can answer and/or help with if these thoughts I'm now having are even a possibility...Near the car wash you mentioned, where the river dike is, could someone take that river to near or where the bikes were found and then also continue per river to Seven Bridges Park? I ask this for two reasons (and I may be way out of line here, but just brainstorming): The site where the girls bodies/remains were found is very close to the Wapsi River and a boat would have much easier access to this spot than a person would have on foot (based on where LE vehicles are parked in the pictures) And number 2 reason is, I know somewhere along the lines the possibility of boat was mentioned; however, I'm not sure that was ever confirmed and/or ruled out. But if someone could have abducted those girls from that river near the car wash, put their bikes on boat also, floated by Meyers Lake and threw out or gotten rid of bikes and purse and then continued to float on down to where bodies were found. None of this may even be possible but just throwing it out there....

Respectfully, that would involve a trip of several hundred miles by river: down the Cedar to the Iowa River down to the Mississippi River, upstream on the Mississippi to the Wapsipinicon River and then west on the Wapsipinicon to 7 Bridges Park. Which would go through heavily populated areas and (on the Mississippi) barge traffic.

The Wapsipinicon was at historic record lows last summer, too low to even float inner tubes along the entire course. A boat of any sort would not have been able to navigate the whole way up the river; much portaging would be required.

 

[JaimeInLA]

Otto, you are a national treasure. Thanks for being our Map Maker Extraordinaire!

 

[Squeeze]

SBM

Your maps are awesome as usual, Otto.

The river by Evansdale is the Cedar River.

The river in 7 Bridges Park is the Wapsipinicon.

There is no connection except by going down one all the way to the Mississippi River and using that to go to the mouth of the other. In other words, a trip of several hundred miles by river, interrupted by many dams.

....and very, very shallow water. Oops, already mentioned by Grainne. I really should catch up completely before I comment.

 

[Squeeze]

Otto, thank you for the maps, as I can finally understand now exactly where the bodies were located.

 

[otto]

I'm actually wondering about Readlyn now. 7 Bridges Park seems awfully convenient for someone that lives in Readlyn. In the large area map, each grid line is a road, and each segment in the grid line is 1 mile ... so about 5-6 miles from 7 Bridges to Readlyn. Readlyn is about one square mile in size. Is this the trailer park that's been mentioned?

 

[otto]

Denver is about 9 miles straight West of 7 Bridges Park.

 

[chelsea6]

Thank you Otto for the maps, that's very helpful, you do a wonderful job!

chelsea6, thank you also for all your input and ideas and maybe you can answer and/or help with if these thoughts I'm now having are even a possibility...Near the car wash you mentioned, where the river dike is, could someone take that river to near or where the bikes were found and then also continue per river to Seven Bridges Park? I ask this for two reasons (and I may be way out of line here, but just brainstorming): The site where the girls bodies/remains were found is very close to the Wapsi River and a boat would have much easier access to this spot than a person would have on foot (based on where LE vehicles are parked in the pictures) And number 2 reason is, I know somewhere along the lines the possibility of boat was mentioned; however, I'm not sure that was ever confirmed and/or ruled out. But if someone could have abducted those girls from that river near the car wash, put their bikes on boat also, floated by Meyers Lake and threw out or gotten rid of bikes and purse and then continued to float on down to where bodies were found. None of this may even be possible but just throwing it out there....

Thank-you! I wish I could answer, but I don't know how to navigate rivers, lakes, etc. I look at the Cedar River on a map, and navigating from Evansdale towards downtown Waterloo going north you would hit a dam, and couldn't get past it. If there was another way, there would be so many sand bars from the drought, I don't see how it would be possible. But I'm not a boater. Wish I could help. :waitasec:

Picture of the damn:
http://images.search.yahoo.com/imag...b=13sdt3q8u&sigi=14nci8drb&.crumb=UbI.f5c/.Eu

 

[Snowbunny]

Do we know if there were any roofers or painters working in the area where Elizabeth lived at the time the girls disappeared? The reason I ask this is because I know around here they like to sit in their vehicles or on the curb and eat their lunch. Some of them can really be obnoxious at times and I've seen around here where they try to make smart alick remarks to people that lived in the area or people just passing by. I know when my daughter was a teenager my neighbor was having their house painted and my daughter didn't like going outside when they were around because she complained that some of the workers made inappropriate comments to her and it made her extremely uneasy. One day I heard noise on my roof and when I went outside to investigate what was going on I found two of the creeps sitting on top of my roof eating their lunch and I wasn't having any work done on my house. Needless to say, I called LE and when LE showed up a couple of the neighbor girls came forward and told LE about some of the comments these characters were saying to them also. That's the reason I was wondering if the girls seen some creep close to their house that spooked them and that's why they went in the opposite direction.

 

[artzypantz]

I don't think that it will be possible to determine how the children died unless a weapon was used and there is evidence on the skeletal remains. I know that there is some doubt about the condition in which the children were found, but based on what I've read, my understanding is that the children were skeletonized.

I looked at the formula for # of days until skeletonization based on average temperatures in the area. If the children were there from July 13, 2012 until Dec 5, 2012, they were there for 145 days. Skeletonization would have occurred in about 112 days.

Jumping off your post here about the Skeletonization time frame......

I watched a Nat Geo or Discovery show a few years back where they took a good sized freshly killed deer and set it in the woods, and then recorded the decomp process. This was some farm where they deal with donated human remains, and put them in different circumstances placed out doors to study about decomp and they try to learn how a person may have died or how they can tell different things when they find persons bodies, such as cases like this. Its a type of a school.

Any ways, they sped up the video so you could see the entire decomp process, even during the night hours, during the hour long show.

It was very gross and very interesting.

The results for the amount of time from freshly dead to skeletonization was LESS than a week. They were quite surprised by the very fast time frame for the skeletonization and stated so several times during the show.

Just throwing that out there.

I think every situation, weather, temps, environment, etc will make every situation different when it comes to a time period for skeletonization.

Artzy

 

[SapphireSteel]

As for COD, there aren't all that many ways to easily kill someone.

A bullet will leave a hole somewhere, a knife will often leave marks on bone. Strangulation breaks the hyoid. Suffocation might be one with no signs after decomposition, drowning another. If there is any soft tissue left at all or signs of immersion on nails or hair they can identify drowning. Poisoning's also identifiable. I suppose you could cut someone's throat without much of a sign if the soft tissue has gone but then you would detect advanced insect activity in one spot.

 

[Tennlyn]

I'm actually wondering about Readlyn now. 7 Bridges Park seems awfully convenient for someone that lives in Readlyn. In the large area map, each grid line is a road, and each segment in the grid line is 1 mile ... so about 5-6 miles from 7 Bridges to Readlyn. Readlyn is about one square mile in size. Is this the trailer park that's been mentioned?

If you're referring to the trailer park with several RSOs in it, I believe that is just south of Denver, IA. In fact, if I mapped it correctly, 270th practically runs into it. Very convenient to both Evansdale and Seven Bridges.

 

[otto]

Jumping off your post here about the Skeletonization time frame......

I watched a Nat Geo or Discovery show a few years back where they took a good sized freshly killed deer and set it in the woods, and then recorded the decomp process. This was some farm where they deal with donated human remains, and put them in different circumstances placed out doors to study about decomp and they try to learn how a person may have died or how they can tell different things when they find persons bodies, such as cases like this. Its a type of a school.

Any ways, they sped up the video so you could see the entire decomp process, even during the night hours, during the hour long show.

It was very gross and very interesting.

The results for the amount of time from freshly dead to skeletonization was LESS than a week. They were quite surprised by the very fast time frame for the skeletonization and stated so several times during the show.

Just throwing that out there.

I think every situation, weather, temps, environment, etc will make every situation different when it comes to a time period for skeletonization.

Artzy

Probably true ... I was using a formula from a paper about decomposition: y=1285/x, where y=no. of days and x=average temp in Centigrade. I posted the links and calculations a couple of days ago.

 

[NWLady]

If you're referring to the trailer park with several RSOs in it, I believe that is just south of Denver, IA. In fact, if I mapped it correctly, 270th practically runs into it. Very convenient to both Evansdale and Seven Bridges.

Thank you Tennlyn for info, andyou are absolutely correct. I did some checks on RSO's and I have found 4 with addresses just south of Denver, Iowa which looks to be like a trailer park. From this area, just south of Denver, to Seven Bridges Park (3015 270th Street, Readlyn, Iowa) it shows 15.33 miles/22 minutes, (Seven Bridges is almost straight east of Denver, Iowa.) The last name of one seems familiar.

I did edit my post, just to be certain I didn't post something I shouldn't have and thank you Dr. Know? for the heads up. I had looked at WS rules regarding RSO's and it says we may "post their information along with maps to show how close they live to the victim."

 

[GrainneDhu]

Do we know if there were any roofers or painters working in the area where Elizabeth lived at the time the girls disappeared? The reason I ask this is because I know around here they like to sit in their vehicles or on the curb and eat their lunch. Some of them can really be obnoxious at times and I've seen around here where they try to make smart alick remarks to people that lived in the area or people just passing by. I know when my daughter was a teenager my neighbor was having their house painted and my daughter didn't like going outside when they were around because she complained that some of the workers made inappropriate comments to her and it made her extremely uneasy. One day I heard noise on my roof and when I went outside to investigate what was going on I found two of the creeps sitting on top of my roof eating their lunch and I wasn't having any work done on my house. Needless to say, I called LE and when LE showed up a couple of the neighbor girls came forward and told LE about some of the comments these characters were saying to them also. That's the reason I was wondering if the girls seen some creep close to their house that spooked them and that's why they went in the opposite direction.

One thing that rules out for me a perp who had a Friday lunch break is that no matter what theory of the crime I mentally timeline, none of them fit into the typical 30-60 minute lunch break. I just don't see how it could be done.

Anyone who was at work that Friday and took an unscheduled afternoon off would have set off enormous clanging alarm bells in someone's head. Their work mates (who not only would know they were gone but would probably be irritated at having to do their work), their supervisor, etc. Since roofers and painters work at the mercy of Mother Nature, when they are on a job they are pushing hard to get it finished.

Basically all the same reasons that rule out anyone working the road construction crew in the area that day. Just being gone that day would cause automatic suspicion. I am sure that LE went around and asked all construction crews if there was someone absent on that Friday.

 

[tlcya]

Thinking of how much the killer(s) stole from these girls and their loved ones.

The girls haved moved on but I care on their behalves.

I feel so deeply for their loved ones and how hard this night must be for them.

We need to know the who and that the who will no longer be a threat.

And not just thwt, but punished.

Tonight, right now, I couldn't give a rats behind about rehabilitation and being PC.

This second, I want this perp punished.

Hard.

Merry christmas.

<sarcasm emoticon>

 

[chicagofa13]

That gave me the chills.

He's right. They do. It's almost irresistable. Even a psychopath feels the need to boast.

Also in this case, we have actual confirmation that they are talking. "there are people that they are looking at,&#8221; to quote Heather.

This is LE speak for "we know who you are and we're coming to get you", especially if they have informed the family.

I bet there is a nervous person or three or six around town at the moment. Look for folks looking paler than usual and skipping work - if they have a job in the first place that is.

:cow:

Heather said that, but in the same article LE says they can't even put together a profile of the killer. So unless they are being purposely misleading, they don't know.

http://m.kcci.com/news/Heather-Coll...ple/-/16916438/17814122/-/ocds7i/-/index.html

Blackhawk County Chief Deputy Rick Abben, who's been fielding questions on the case, revealed little during a phone interview Monday afternoon.

&#8220;We haven't aimed in on any one specific person or gender or anything like that,&#8221; said Abben.

Abben said because of a lack of evidence, they can't even come up with a profile of the killer.

&#8220;For no one to not see anything, it's very frustrating,&#8221; said Abben