IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #25

[GrainneDhu]

Well here goes MOO on LE at this given time...:furious:

I don't think they are any closer to an arrest than they were the day they went missing.

This is the first case I've ever followed on WebSleuths - simply because it's so close to home for me and I've learned so much already!

I will say though...that when they found the bikes and no girls a day or so later I had a horrible feeling this wouldn't be solved. I had said as much way back...local LE simply isn't prepared for things like this. "It just doesn't happen around here" is what we hear all too often in our small Iowa towns.

I have watched this unfold and sadly my confidence in LE is about zilch at this point. I followed the Evelyn Miller case via media only and that investigation infuriated me too. They knew all along who killed her and said as much but didn't make an arrest until her killer slipped up while running his mouth. Strike 2 in my book.

LE counts on people talking entirely too much. Maybe I watch too much CSI and expect more from our LE than is truly capable of accomplishing but I don't WANT to count on idiots running their mouths to "seal a deal" I want LE to do what they are paid to do...keep my community safe from people who abduct and kill children in broad daylight. And right now, I don't feel my kids are safe.:moo:

I actually thought LE did a good job in the Evelyn Miller case.

For one thing, they arrested him on other charges pretty quickly, so it's not like he was walking the streets free.

For another, in a crime where both victim and perpetrator were living in the same household and sharing the same vehicles, a lot of the forensic evidence instantly becomes worthless. If she had fibres on her body from his car, so what? He was known to have given her rides. If he had her hair on his clothing, again, so what? He lived with her and they had ample innocent opportunity for that type of transfer to occur.

Evelyn did not have any of Frederickson's DNA on her body in places that would be due to sexual assault. So if she had his DNA on her shoulder, that's another so what? When you live with a kid, you can innocently touch them on the shoulder.

Not that they found blood but even small amounts of blood can be innocently explained (a scratch, a nosebleed, etc).

What LE did correctly was in making sure that everyone knew the chief suspect was Frederickson and no one else. They got him off the street as quickly as they could, considering they had no worthwhile forensic evidence indicating guilt. They made sure he got cellmates who were apparently relatively sympathetic to him.

And they kept as many details of the crime scene secret, so that he would have more than adequate chances to blow his alibi by disclosing things he could only know for one reason.

 

[Dum-Dum Sucker]

To me, jenandemmie's theory (post #3) is reasonable.

The perps (plural) very well could be a couple of young, video-game playing punks with lots of time on their hands in the summer. They even may have been grooming one or both of the girls with this very plan in mind.

They lured the girls to the lake, grabbed them, and took them to the 7 Bridges place, which they knew from partying there - and which they probably knew would be isolated.

They walked the girls in, sexually assaulted them, and murdered them, right there.

Horrid to contemplate, but highly possible.

 

[GrainneDhu]

In the 7 bridges video, the man said he hunted that exact area where the girls were found just a few days prior.Now wouldn't he have smelled the odor of decomposition? So this kinda tells me the girls were either recently put there, or they were skeletons.

I think he was mistaken about where the girls were found. Otto did one of his overlays showing where the video was shot vs where the girls were found and it looks to be 1000 feet away, more or less.

I doubt there was any scent of decomposition heavy enough for a human to detect. Even if there had been, well, it was in the middle of deer season and I know I would assume it was from a gut pile (field dressed deer) or from a deer that had been wounded but not tracked down.

Or, for that matter, some animal that lived to a grand old age for its species and died of natural causes.

When I could hike, I never expected to find a human body but I did occasionally find dead animals.

 

[GrainneDhu]

bbm

Hmmm, otto. Agreed.

Is there anything "in season" for hunting in July in that area? Is that area used by hunters? The hunter "took us" on that tour, so seems like it is an approved hunting area... If the answers to either of those questions is "No," then wouldn't firing shots at that time of day also be risky? But OTOH, after all of the preceding risk-taking, would it even matter?

SBM & BBM

Groundhogs and coyote can be hunted in July but most people only shoot ones that are a nuisance on farms.

However, firing a few shots wouldn't necessarily be all that risky. It's fairly common to hear target practise going on in the summer. Plus, the forest tends to muffle and disperse sound so that it is difficult to tell where it came from.

The statement I bolded is the most relevant one, in my humble opinion. I think the risks involved seem much more daunting to people with normal personalities but to a sociopath/psychopath? Risk means very little and may actually be a part of the motivation for the crime.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Not sure why I feel this way, but I feel that this is a ONE perp crime.

I agree but I know my reasons.

First and foremost, a secret shared between two people usually doesn't stay a secret for long. Someone always has to talk.

Also, statistically, single perps are by far the most common. Crimes committed by two or more perps are quite rare, among a very rare type of crime overall.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Going with your gut GrainneDhu, do you think was a sociopath? Just curious as to what your gut is telling you. Your responses are always so interesting. I would like to know which theory you are going with.

I do think the perp is a sociopath.

I don't think there were two perps but if there were, one would be the sociopathic leader type and the other would be the sycophantic follower type (think John Muhammad and Lee Malvo).

I do not think the perp had a close or significant connection to either family although he may have been in a position to have casual type contact with them (attend the same community groups, use the same grocery store at around the same time or whatever).

I doubt he lured the girls because my gut feeling is that he's not charismatic or capable of persuading anyone to do anything.

 

[otto]

I do think the perp is a sociopath.

I don't think there were two perps but if there were, one would be the sociopathic leader type and the other would be the sycophantic follower type (think John Muhammad and Lee Malvo).

I do not think the perp had a close or significant connection to either family although he may have been in a position to have casual type contact with them (attend the same community groups, use the same grocery store at around the same time or whatever).

I doubt he lured the girls because my gut feeling is that he's not charismatic or capable of persuading anyone to do anything.

If the children were not lured to the lake, isn't it an incredible coincidence that just at the moment that two children break all the rules and ride to the leech infested drainage pipe gate at Meyers Lake, a murderer just happens to intercept them?

Sociopaths can be very charming and very charismatic.

These are a few of the characteristics of sociopaths:

• Grandiose self image – They might see themselves as someone who is superior to others and sometimes even experiences delusions. A sociopath might see themselves as a fitting ruler of a country or even the world, but might also have delusional beliefs such as seeing themselves as a God or having super powers

• Charming – While the sociopath is unable to fully understand the emotions of others, they are capable but rather highly adept at mimicking them and might appear to be charming and normal at first

• High IQ – Often sociopaths will exhibit a high IQ which they can use to manipulate and plan

• Manipulative – Sociopaths use their superficial charm and high IQ to manipulate others to get their ends, and their lack of empathy allows them to do this with no sense of guilt or remorse

• Secretive – Has little need for others and is highly secretive in their actions meaning

• Sexually deviant – The lack of remorse, guilt or emotional attachments means that the sociopath is happy to have affairs and to engage in questionable sexual activity without questioning their desires

• Sensitive to criticism – That said, like all narcissists, the sociopath will desire the approval of others and will be highly sensitive to criticisms. They often feel they deserve adulation and admiration of the world and might feel victimized

...

In all cases though the psychopath will appear highly intelligent, charming and charismatic to talk to and it is only careful guardedness that can uncover their true motivations.

...

The psychopath will be more likely to construct a complex scheme or plan and to carry it out, whereas the sociopath is more driven by impulsivity.


http://www.healthguidance.org/entry/15850/1/Characteristics-of-a-Sociopath.html

 

[borndem]

Okay. Here comes another one.

Iowa is out of my usual W.Sleuthing area, but I see that Iowans are very proud of their state, and are good folks. My DH was in Iowa when he was little while his dad was at Iowa State, Ames, for his Ph.D. Lotsa snow pics of two little boys...

Apparently there have been no other killings/sexual assaults of young children in the Evansdale or surrounding areas (not including Waterloo, I guess, since no one has really mentioned Waterloo -- which is a good-sized city not too far away).

Could the perp have been a college student who was in the area for a summer job or was Evansdale or somewhere nearby his hometown? Seems to me, if the perp no longer is in the area, that something had to draw him to the area. Just a thought.

If this horrible incident was a one-of-a-kind for this person, then seems to me it was somehow connected by either familiarity with one or both of the girls, or with someone in the girls' families -- some type of retaliation or personal animosity or similar. If it was just knowing someone in the family, would it include sexual assault or just murder for "getting even" for some bad business deal or a work-related perceived slight? (I feel limited in discussing this because I just don't have a "feel" for this kind of thing -- the murder of children...

Was this a lark gone wrong? Did the perp intend to just spend time with the girls, or just follow them to scare them for kicks with no physical harm intended, and something went wrong & one of them was hurt or killed accidentally & the perp had a record & was afraid of going back to jail? Was it a traffic accident and the perp had no license or was a past DUI and panicked?

Or, or, or... Arrrrgggggghhhhh!!!

 

[fairfax]

Anyone have any knowledge of how likely it would be for the perp to dispose of one body in a remote area, keep the other girl alive, and then return some time (days? weeks?) later to the same location to dispose of the second one? That might explain why they weren't left in the exact same spot.

Perhaps they were interested in abducting just one girl, but abducted both to avoid leaving a witness. Then kept just one of them alive for some time [for whatever reason]?

My immediate critique of my own idea is that they would probably dispose of the second body at a completely different location, just in case someone had found the first body and LE was monitoring that location. But I was just wondering if that is unheard of in cases with multiple victims, to dispose of more than one body over a period of time in the same remote location.

 

[Dum-Dum Sucker]

I do think the perp is a sociopath.

I don't think there were two perps but if there were, one would be the sociopathic leader type and the other would be the sycophantic follower type (think John Muhammad and Lee Malvo).

I do not think the perp had a close or significant connection to either family although he may have been in a position to have casual type contact with them (attend the same community groups, use the same grocery store at around the same time or whatever).

I doubt he lured the girls because my gut feeling is that he's not charismatic or capable of persuading anyone to do anything.

In my experience working with kids, I don't believe that young, vulnerable girls need charisma to be lured. Plain old everyday attention given to them would do the trick, I'm thinking. Especially from boys who are a little older.

 

[Snowbunny]

Okay. Here comes another one.

Iowa is out of my usual W.Sleuthing area, but I see that Iowans are very proud of their state, and are good folks. My DH was in Iowa when he was little while his dad was at Iowa State, Ames, for his Ph.D. Lotsa snow pics of two little boys...

Apparently there have been no other killings/sexual assaults of young children in the Evansdale or surrounding areas (not including Waterloo, I guess, since no one has really mentioned Waterloo -- which is a good-sized city not too far away).

Could the perp have been a college student who was in the area for a summer job or was Evansdale or somewhere nearby his hometown? Seems to me, if the perp no longer is in the area, that something had to draw him to the area. Just a thought.

If this horrible incident was a one-of-a-kind for this person, then seems to me it was somehow connected by either familiarity with one or both of the girls, or with someone in the girls' families -- some type of retaliation or personal animosity or similar. If it was just knowing someone in the family, would it include sexual assault or just murder for "getting even" for some bad business deal or a work-related perceived slight? (I feel limited in discussing this because I just don't have a "feel" for this kind of thing -- the murder of children...

Was this a lark gone wrong? Did the perp intend to just spend time with the girls, or just follow them to scare them for kicks with no physical harm intended, and something went wrong & one of them was hurt or killed accidentally & the perp had a record & was afraid of going back to jail? Was it a traffic accident and the perp had no license or was a past DUI and panicked?

Or, or, or... Arrrrgggggghhhhh!!!

A while back I posted a link of a sketch of an individual which the Rochester MN PD released of an individual who tried to abduct a 10 year old in Rochester, MN, which I believe is approximately 2 hours north but everybody seem to just ignore it and it wasn't that long ago. I've tried to find the link again but I can't. That sketch haunted me because I swear I've seen a person that looked like that sketch before.

 

[otto]

Okay. Here comes another one.

Iowa is out of my usual W.Sleuthing area, but I see that Iowans are very proud of their state, and are good folks. My DH was in Iowa when he was little while his dad was at Iowa State, Ames, for his Ph.D. Lotsa snow pics of two little boys...

Apparently there have been no other killings/sexual assaults of young children in the Evansdale or surrounding areas (not including Waterloo, I guess, since no one has really mentioned Waterloo -- which is a good-sized city not too far away).

Could the perp have been a college student who was in the area for a summer job or was Evansdale or somewhere nearby his hometown? Seems to me, if the perp no longer is in the area, that something had to draw him to the area. Just a thought.

If this horrible incident was a one-of-a-kind for this person, then seems to me it was somehow connected by either familiarity with one or both of the girls, or with someone in the girls' families -- some type of retaliation or personal animosity or similar. If it was just knowing someone in the family, would it include sexual assault or just murder for "getting even" for some bad business deal or a work-related perceived slight? (I feel limited in discussing this because I just don't have a "feel" for this kind of thing -- the murder of children...

Was this a lark gone wrong? Did the perp intend to just spend time with the girls, or just follow them to scare them for kicks with no physical harm intended, and something went wrong & one of them was hurt or killed accidentally & the perp had a record & was afraid of going back to jail? Was it a traffic accident and the perp had no license or was a past DUI and panicked?

Or, or, or... Arrrrgggggghhhhh!!!

Traffic Accident: someone accidentally hits a child on a bike. What do they normally do? Call paramedics and police. Is it really possible that someone accidentally hit one of the children with a vehicle and then decided to grab the injured child, the damaged bike, the other child and the other bike, throw them into the vehicle, which may be a car, suddenly decide to take their bikes to the SE tip of Meyers Lake, just happen to have materials for restraining two children, then decide to drive 20 miles to another secluded area and simply murder the two children? That just doesn't make sense to me. Escalating a traffic accident to a double kidnapping and murder makes no sense for any reason.

Retaliation: What are the chances that someone wanted to retaliate against Drew and Heather? Slim to none, I would think. What are the chances that someone wanted to retaliate against Dan? Perhaps some possibility. Dan has two children. One lived with him at his mom's place or was spending time there during the summer, the other child lived with her grandmother. Which is the more likely child to abduct if child abduction and murder was a realistic method of retaliation? Why take the target child and another child if retaliation is the objective - why not wait until the target child is alone? Why ensure that no one finds the children for months if retaliation is the message?

 

[otto]

In my experience working with kids, I don't believe that young, vulnerable girls need charisma to be lured. Plain old everyday attention given to them would do the trick, I'm thinking. Especially from boys who are a little older.

It really depends on the child. Not all children interact with strangers. I think that there are plenty of children with solid enough values and family foundations that they steer clear of weirdos that make stupid comments to children ... including older boys that attempt to strike up a conversation.

 

[fairfax]

Could the perp have been a college student who was in the area for a summer job or was Evansdale or somewhere nearby his hometown? Seems to me, if the perp no longer is in the area, that something had to draw him to the area. Just a thought.

My two cents..

The University of Northern Iowa in neighboring Cedar Falls is kind of seen as the 'kid brother' state university, because there is generally more attention paid to larger universities like U of I or Iowa State. It's not uncommon for students from the Waterloo/Cedar Falls area to attend college at one of these other schools, depending on what they'd like to study, as there is a larger variety of undergrad programs available there (as well as other reasons).

So it's possible that there could be a student who grew up in the area--and knew about remote places like 7 Bridges--that does not live there year-round, but would have been back for the summer with family or work at a summer job or internship.

 

[borndem]

Anyone have any knowledge of how likely it would be for the perp to dispose of one body in a remote area, keep the other girl alive, and then return some time (days? weeks?) later to the same location to dispose of the second one? That might explain why they weren't left in the exact same spot.

Perhaps they were interested in abducting just one girl, but abducted both to avoid leaving a witness. Then kept just one of them alive for some time [for whatever reason]?

My immediate critique of my own idea is that they would probably dispose of the second body at a completely different location, just in case someone had found the first body and LE was monitoring that location. But I was just wondering if that is unheard of in cases with multiple victims, to dispose of more than one body over a period of time in the same remote location.

Hi, fairfax, and a big

:Welcome1:


to WebSleuths!!!!




:rollercoaster:





We're glad to have you!
​

 

[Snowbunny]

And July is also one of the months that people come home for class reunions as well.

 

[tlcya]

Okay. Here comes another one.

Iowa is out of my usual W.Sleuthing area, but I see that Iowans are very proud of their state, and are good folks. My DH was in Iowa when he was little while his dad was at Iowa State, Ames, for his Ph.D. Lotsa snow pics of two little boys...

Apparently there have been no other killings/sexual assaults of young children in the Evansdale or surrounding areas (not including Waterloo, I guess, since no one has really mentioned Waterloo -- which is a good-sized city not too far away).

Could the perp have been a college student who was in the area for a summer job or was Evansdale or somewhere nearby his hometown? Seems to me, if the perp no longer is in the area, that something had to draw him to the area. Just a thought.

If this horrible incident was a one-of-a-kind for this person, then seems to me it was somehow connected by either familiarity with one or both of the girls, or with someone in the girls' families -- some type of retaliation or personal animosity or similar. If it was just knowing someone in the family, would it include sexual assault or just murder for "getting even" for some bad business deal or a work-related perceived slight? (I feel limited in discussing this because I just don't have a "feel" for this kind of thing -- the murder of children...

Was this a lark gone wrong? Did the perp intend to just spend time with the girls, or just follow them to scare them for kicks with no physical harm intended, and something went wrong & one of them was hurt or killed accidentally & the perp had a record & was afraid of going back to jail? Was it a traffic accident and the perp had no license or was a past DUI and panicked?

Or, or, or... Arrrrgggggghhhhh!!!

My two cents..

The University of Northern Iowa in neighboring Cedar Falls is kind of seen as the 'kid brother' state university, because there is generally more attention paid to larger universities like U of I or Iowa State. It's not uncommon for students from the Waterloo/Cedar Falls area to attend college at one of these other schools, depending on what they'd like to study, as there is a larger variety of undergrad programs available there (as well as other reasons).

So it's possible that there could be a student who grew up in the area--and knew about remote places like 7 Bridges--that does not live there year-round, but would have been back for the summer with family or work at a summer job or internship.

When this case first broke I toyed with the idea of someone familiar with the area who had grown up there and recently returned. I had not specifically considered the college student angle but it sure seems plausible to me.

 

[borndem]

In my experience working with kids, I don't believe that young, vulnerable girls need charisma to be lured. Plain old everyday attention given to them would do the trick, I'm thinking. Especially from boys who are a little older.

bbm

Not a bad thought, D-D-S. Lyric was (probably, anyway) in that "in-between" age when one day, or minute, you feel much older than your cousin Elizabeth and you're a young lady, and the next minute you're a kid wanting to play dolls or race around the house with her.

Some cute 17- or 19-year-old paying attention to you from behind a counter at a quick-mart type place -- "What pretty earrings. Aren't you Lyric?" or "Will you be in 7th or 8th grade this fall?" would probably do it...

 

[tlcya]

I am still on the fence about whether our perp is a sociopath. Not enough for me to go on either way. Open to the idea, just not sure enough about it to opine on the issue.

 

[Dum-Dum Sucker]

bbm

Not a bad thought, D-D-S. Lyric was (probably, anyway) in that "in-between" age when one day, or minute, you feel much older than your cousin Elizabeth and you're a young lady, and the next minute you're a kid wanting to play dolls or race around the house with her.

Some cute 17- or 19-year-old paying attention to you from behind a counter at a quick-mart type place -- "What pretty earrings. Aren't you Lyric?" or "Will you be in 7th or 8th grade this fall?" would probably do it...

Exactly, borndem.