IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #26

[iamnotagolem]

Did LE or the family ever confirm those are the girl's bikes? !!! If they aren't then we have been on a wild goose chase with this! The bikes are the ONLY link to being at the Park.

The bikes found at 3:58 were the girls. The bikes TG saw at 12:27 have never been confirmed as the girls.

 

[Marilynilpa]

Tammy's guy said he saw the girls at 2:30 according to this transcript.

http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1207/16/ijvm.01.html

Snipped
And one man stepped forward and said, "Yes, I seen them going east on the bike trail at about 2:30."

So...we have a jogger who saw the bikes ALONE at 2:30 and we have another person who Tammy spoke with who saw the girls riding the trail at approx 30 mins later.

So...maybe the girls were there the entire time from the time they were seen on CCTV.

Mr. Gamerdinger said he saw bikes and no girls at his sighting...then again at 2, a jogger claims HE saw the bikes and no girls...and then at 2:30 this witness Tammy spoke with claims to have seen the girls.

OK...gonna throw this out there as yet ANOTHER possible scenario to chew on. Where could the 2 girls have been at the lake that wasn't out in the open for someone to be "hanging" with them?

Bathroom? Wooded area? Pavilion? Went for a ride in a vehicle for a bit?

Maybe the girls weren't even abducted and gone until later on in the afternoon. It is fully possible for the family to have driven by the lake and not seen the girls.

So...let's ASSUME that the girls were there at 2:30 and this witness was correct.

Now what theories open up?

Is there a "smiley" that shows a head spinning around and around and then exploding with a lot of question marks spewing out? That would describe me right now.

I don't put a lot of credence in Tammy's "2:30 sighting man". He says he saw two girls on bikes, but there's no way to know if he really saw them, or if they were Lyric and Lizzie, or two other girls.

Now, I'm jumping off your post -

Right now I rely on the 12:15 and 12:23 sightings of the girls, and the 2:00 sighting by the jogger of the girls' bikes at the lake. The jogger's sighting of the bikes is confirmed by LE. No offense to TG and what he saw, I'm just stating the facts as we know them.

Where does the surveillance video fit in here? I have no idea. We've seen the 12:11 time stamp, but Mr. P says the camera is off by 8 minutes. LE has never confirmed the girls were seen at either 12:11 or 12:19. So I don't know what to make of that.

The same with TG's sighting. He saw two bikes on the trail at approx. 12:27, IIRC, and yet LE has never confirmed that sighting. Again, we have a possible time to throw into the mix, but no confirmation.

LE said the girls may have been seen between 12:30-1:00. If that's true, it changes the timeline considerably IMO. But there hasn't been any confirmation of this time, LE just has "reason to believe" the girls were seen.

Which brings me back to my point - 12:15 and 12:23 are the only confirmed sighting of the girls, and 2:00 is the only confirmed sighting of the bikes until they were recovered during the search at around 4:00.:banghead:

Any theory I come up with has to include those three, confirmed times. I'm going to focus on those times and see if anything eventually makes sense to me.

 

[Squeeze]

I've wondered that but how strange for the girls bikes to actually show up there later. I don't understand why the two fisherman have never come forward. the girls abduction was on our local news & I don't live in the same state. there is no way they didn't know that something happened that day at the same lake they were fishing at. Maybe they didn't see anything but you would still think they would have contacted the local police dept.

Honestly, I think it would be foolish of us to assume that they haven't come forward, or that LE has not found them, or at least made an attempt to find them. That would be a huge hole in the investigation. Keep in mind that they have gotten thousands of tips that they've followed up on, and they've had the manpower to do it. I don't think that they would leave this type of lead not confirmed.

I mentioned this way, way back, that I was on the bike trail Saturday evening. My daughter and I rode around the lake (counterclockwise), and when we got to the fence, an FBI guy was standing there, and there were other LE officers around. FBI Guy asked me if we happened to be at the park the day before. Granted, this is sort of a passive way to ask for witnesses, but they would have encountered at least some people that were at or near the park on that day. I asked where the bikes were found, and he said by the gate. Then he let us go through. There was no crime tape around, and people had been riding and walking through there all day.

Since we haven't heard any more PSA's about those particular fisherman - or a paddleboater - coming forward, I'm going to assume that they have.

 

[Confusion]

Sorry to change the subject, but I wanted to post a thought I had this morning before I forget it. I know all parts of it have been posted at different times, but I don't remember ever looking at them all at one time. Sorry if it's already been said 1000 times like some things have. :blushing:

The person/people had to either be a stranger and/or just taking advantage of the circumstances, or somebody who wanted both girls. Anybody who was acquainted with one or both girls would only have to take them both if that was what was wanted. Either one of the girls could have been taken alone at another time, and probably much more easily. I don't believe either girl was the target, I think they both were. MOO

 

[kellbabs]

The whole crime seems just WAY too perfect for me. The timeline doesn't add...

...Can anyone lead me to a post where every single time in this case has been listed? Maybe I'm missing something, but I know at one point someone had attempted to list out every time we've heard mentioned (possibly Otto) and maybe looking at a list we can attempt to rule out or include the times based on facts.

I think everyone can agree on this... I really need a timeline also. Would love to have a visual timeline even! Maybe one with actual facts and another for each big theory that includes the facts.

In addition to these girls deserving justice, tbere are how many other kids out there that deserve NOT having the same fate! I just keep thinking that the perp/ perps may have already started planning the next perfect crime... this is surely not the last.

 

[Ms Pragmatic]

Does anyone know what times LE has confirmed(if any) recently? Going back and reading these articles, I see certain MSM reporting girls were last seen at 12:15 and some saying 12:30. What I need is a recent timeline offered by LE if there is one. Even on the Iowa.gov/odcp site, it isn't very recent because the girls hadn't been found yet. I want to eliminate as much confusion as possible. If no timeline has been confirmed recently, why? LE being purposely vague?

 

[Ms Pragmatic]

This says the girls were last seen at about 12:30 on Gilbert Drive near the lake.

http://abcnews.go.com/news/t/blogEntry?id=17229511

The above article was written two months after the girls disappeared. In September.

 

[Marilynilpa]

I think everyone can agree on this... I really need a timeline also. Would love to have a visual timeline even! Maybe one with actual facts and another for each big theory that includes the facts.

In addition to these girls deserving justice, tbere are how many other kids out there that deserve NOT having the same fate! I just keep thinking that the perp/ perps may have already started planning the next perfect crime... this is surely not the last.

In the last thread, I believe otto listed all of the times. I don't know how to bring that post over to this thread.

IIRC - these are the various times, both confirmed and unconfirmed:

12:15 p.m. - last seen by Wylma, confirmed by LE

12:11/12:19 - seen on surveillance video, but this time has never been confirmed by LE.

12:23 (approx) - LE has information that the girls were spotted on Brovan. I think this may be a corrected time for the surveillance video, but JMO only.

12:27 - approximate time TG swerved to avoid two bikes on the trail at Meyers Lake, never confirmed by LE.

12:30-1:00 - LE has information that the girls were seen on Gilbert Drive in the area of Meyers Lake.

2:00 - jogger sees the bikes near the gate on the trail, confirmed by LE.

2:30 - A man says he saw two girls on bikes (per Tammy), never confirmed by LE.

4:00 - approximate time the bikes were found in the initial search.

These are the times as I recall them.

 

[Squeeze]

That's all true, but the events of a day that is remarkable tend to stay in the memory.

The entire town knew the girls were missing by 5pm the same evening.

Everyone in that town will be able to tell you what they were doing when they heard.

In TG's case, he reported what he saw almost straight away. His memory did not have time to rewrite or lose detail.

ETA: I would guess he feels very strongly about being doubted, as he has taken the time and trouble to get verified to post on here.

BBM

I sure do. The whole week was odd. On Monday, July 9, a prominent local businessman (Russ Wasendorf, Sr.) drove to his office in rural Cedar Falls, connected his tail pipe to the inside of his car, and tried to kill himself. In his car was a suicide note stating that he had been embezzling funds for about 20 years, to the tune of $200+ million, from his company, PFG Best. He knew the feds were closing in on him, and he tried to take take the cowards way out, leaving his family to pick up the pieces. He survived (which I think is Karma at its best), but by the end of the day, the FBI was in town to investigate.

On Friday of that week, my son and I were out running errands, and I wanted to find the PFG Best building. I'd heard so much about it - it was only a couple of years old, built in the woods on the edge of a golf course. It was a "green" building, designed to blend into the landscape. We found it, but could only go so close. So while all of this was happening at Meyer's Lake, we were on the opposite side of Waterloo/Cedar Falls.

Later in the day, my son texted me that two girls were missing from Meyer's Lake. Of course, the assumption at the time was that they had drowned. He said it was all over Facebook.

Still later, I asked if he knew the names (it had not yet been released), and he mentioned Heather Collins' name. I gasped, as I knew of Heather's health issues from a mutual friend.

Fast forward to December 5, 2012. The assets of Russ Wasendorf and PFG Best are auctioned off. Its a big deal. Many have come from out of town to buy, and the auction is even live online.

This is the same day the girls are found at Seven Bridges.

It seems that whenever we hear some news about one case, we hear it about the other.

 

[iamnotagolem]

There is no confirmation of the girls bikes at the lake prior to 2:00. I think it is possible that the girls were abducted close to home, taken to 7 bridges and murdered and when the perp got back to town realized the bikes and purse were still in the truck and dumped them at the lake, or simply staged them at that time.

 

[threecrazykids]

Does anyone know what times LE has confirmed(if any) recently? Going back and reading these articles, I see certain MSM reporting girls were last seen at 12:15 and some saying 12:30. What I need is a recent timeline offered by LE if there is one. Even on the Iowa.gov/odcp site, it isn't very recent because the girls hadn't been found yet. I want to eliminate as much confusion as possible. If no timeline has been confirmed recently, why? LE being purposely vague?

Exactly...why no timeline? Being vague is one thing...but they have released snippets of info that don't add up.

The person/people who know how to make this timeline fit isn't going to be the one calling in to help solve this crime...they are watching over their shoulder for LE.

 

[Squeeze]

In the last thread, I believe otto listed all of the times. I don't know how to bring that post over to thread.

IIRC - these are the various times, both confirmed and unconfirmed:

12:15 p.m. - last seen by Wylma, confirmed by LE

12:11/12:19 - seen on surveillance video, but this time has never been confirmed by LE.

12:23 - girls were spotted near intersection on Brovan, confirmed by LE.

12:27 - approximate time TG swerved to avoid two bikes on the trail at Meyers Lake, never confirmed by LE.

12:30-1:00 - LE has reason to believe the girls were spotted, but I don't know if this was ever narrowed down and/or confirmed.

2:00 - jogger sees the bikes near the gate on the trail, confirmed by LE.

2:30 - Tammy speaks to a man who says he saw two girls on bikes, never confirmed by LE.

4:00 - approximate time the bikes were found in the initial search.

These are the times as I recall them.

BBM
Regarding the surveillance video time, and how it was off by 8 minutes, I'm sure that LE circled back around to confirm that the time was or was not off, and that is maybe the 12:23 time confirmed. In other words, suppose that the Cornbelt guy mentioned that the time was off, so LE went back, and found that it was not off just 8 minutes, but more, and that's the time that they confirmed. The Cornbelt guy had already been interviewed, and they can't take that back, but he could have been mistaken about how far off the time. So, again, I'm assuming that LE has the correct time properly documented.

 

[threecrazykids]

In the last thread, I believe otto listed all of the times. I don't know how to bring that post over to thread.

IIRC - these are the various times, both confirmed and unconfirmed:

12:15 p.m. - last seen by Wylma, confirmed by LE

12:11/12:19 - seen on surveillance video, but this time has never been confirmed by LE.

12:23 - girls were spotted near intersection on Brovan, confirmed by LE.

12:27 - approximate time TG swerved to avoid two bikes on the trail at Meyers Lake, never confirmed by LE.

12:30-1:00 - LE has reason to believe the girls were spotted, but I don't know if this was ever narrowed down and/or confirmed.

2:00 - jogger sees the bikes near the gate on the trail, confirmed by LE.

2:30 - Tammy speaks to a man who says he saw two girls on bikes, never confirmed by LE.

4:00 - approximate time the bikes were found in the initial search.

These are the times as I recall them.

12:15 to 12:23 is also 8 mins difference - both verified by LE.

Maybe LE are counting the times "close enough" as Wylma seeing them at 12:15 and then the CCTV being the 12:23 sighting which IS at an intersection.:waitasec:

 

[threecrazykids]

In the last thread, I believe otto listed all of the times. I don't know how to bring that post over to this thread.

IIRC - these are the various times, both confirmed and unconfirmed:

12:15 p.m. - last seen by Wylma, confirmed by LE

12:11/12:19 - seen on surveillance video, but this time has never been confirmed by LE.

12:23 (approx) - LE has information that the girls were spotted on Brovan. I think this may be a corrected time for the surveillance video, but JMO only.

12:27 - approximate time TG swerved to avoid two bikes on the trail at Meyers Lake, never confirmed by LE.

12:30-1:00 - LE has information that the girls were seen on Gilbert Drive in the area of Meyers Lake.

2:00 - jogger sees the bikes near the gate on the trail, confirmed by LE.

2:30 - Tammy speaks to a man who says he saw two girls on bikes, never confirmed by LE.

4:00 - approximate time the bikes were found in the initial search.

These are the times as I recall them.

I think we should note that the 2:30 time is the time that the man stated he saw the girls not the time Tammy spoke to him. (Just being picky) because she said she didn't get to the lake until "around a quarter to 3"... :blushing:

 

[threecrazykids]

BBM
Regarding the surveillance video time, and how it was off by 8 minutes, I'm sure that LE circled back around to confirm that the time was or was not off, and that is maybe the 12:23 time confirmed. In other words, suppose that the Cornbelt guy mentioned that the time was off, so LE went back, and found that it was not off just 8 minutes, but more, and that's the time that they confirmed. The Cornbelt guy had already been interviewed, and they can't take that back, but he could have been mistaken about how far off the time. So, again, I'm assuming that LE has the correct time properly documented.

I AGREE 100%:rocker:

 

[Marilynilpa]

BBM
Regarding the surveillance video time, and how it was off by 8 minutes, I'm sure that LE circled back around to confirm that the time was or was not off, and that is maybe the 12:23 time confirmed. In other words, suppose that the Cornbelt guy mentioned that the time was off, so LE went back, and found that it was not off just 8 minutes, but more, and that's the time that they confirmed. The Cornbelt guy had already been interviewed, and they can't take that back, but he could have been mistaken about how far off the time. So, again, I'm assuming that LE has the correct time properly documented.

I edited my post to say that the 12:23 sighting might have been the surveillance video. You quoted me before my edits were done.

I agree with you - I think 12:23 is the corrected surveillance video time, since LE makes no mention of a 12:11 OR 12:19 sighting. JMO

 

[hollyblue]

Tammy's guy said he saw the girls at 2:30 according to this transcript.

http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1207/16/ijvm.01.html

Snipped
And one man stepped forward and said, "Yes, I seen them going east on the bike trail at about 2:30."

So...we have a jogger who saw the bikes ALONE at 2:00 and we have another person who Tammy spoke with who saw the girls riding the trail at approx 30 mins later.

So...maybe the girls were there the entire time from the time they were seen on CCTV.

Mr. Gamerdinger said he saw bikes and no girls at his sighting...then again at 2, a jogger claims HE saw the bikes and no girls...and then at 2:30 this witness Tammy spoke with claims to have seen the girls.

OK...gonna throw this out there as yet ANOTHER possible scenario to chew on. Where could the 2 girls have been at the lake that wasn't out in the open for someone to be "hanging" with them?

Bathroom? Wooded area? Pavilion? Went for a ride in a vehicle for a bit?

Maybe the girls weren't even abducted and gone until later on in the afternoon. It is fully possible for the family to have driven by the lake and not seen the girls.

So...let's ASSUME that the girls were there at 2:30 and this witness was correct.

Now what theories open up?

ETA: Tammy states she was there at a quarter to 3.
"and this was at about a quarter to 3 -- and keep in mind the last they were seen was at 11:30 a.m., when they told mom they were going on the bike ride. So that is the last time they were for sure seen. And now, it`s going on to -- it`s getting close to being a quarter to 3."

So even from the time that the witness claims he saw them riding...Tammy and crew were there at approx 2:45ish so again, within 15 mins they aren't there...but 15 mins opens up enough time for someone to abduct someone and be gone.

Sitting on my hands on this.

 

[Marilynilpa]

I think we should note that the 2:30 time is the time that the man stated he saw the girls not the time Tammy spoke to him. (Just being picky) because she said she didn't get to the lake until "around a quarter to 3"... :blushing:

You're right, let me change that. Thanks!

 

[SapphireSteel]

Then of course, there is the glaring possibility that someone's LYING. :waitasec:

I'm a bit sad that sleuthers wish to give up on the girls so early in the game. It has only been 6 months.

I'm also bemused (still) as to why folks are so confused at the timeline.

The girls got to the lake (or their bikes did) in 8 minutes.

It is completely doable. Even a turtle could bike a mile in 8 minutes.

:cow:

 

[MNDad]

12:15 to 12:23 is also 8 mins difference - both verified by LE.

Maybe LE are counting the times "close enough" as Wylma seeing them at 12:15 and then the CCTV being the 12:23 sighting which IS at an intersection.:waitasec:

From aerial views, Cornbelt looks to me that it is in the middle of the block. What intersection is it at?