IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #26

[soccer mom]

That's the scenario I've been thinking about. Two perps. One takes the girls, the other stages the bikes and meets up with perp 1 after.

I hate to even write it, but the way the bodies were found apart from each other, they could have been meant for an individual each.

I really hope this is not true! I can't imagine two sick individuals agreeing to a plan like this. I have girls the same ages & this case broke my heart this summer. I wanted them found & returned home like everyone else. As a mother I was so thankful the girls were at least found. I honestly think the wondering & worry would have killed me. I hope this case doesn't go cold & that the truth comes out. Every day I pray for peace & healing for these families.

 

[threecrazykids]

Elizabeth and Lyric are starting to remind me of Jodi Huisentruit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Same part of the state, kinda. Disappeared under similiar circumstances, kinda.

Exactly! Just POOF and gone...

 

[hollyblue]

Do you think it's possible that they DID come forward? And maybe we just don't know about it? It's hard to say because LE never confirmed Tammy's guy who claimed he saw the girls riding east(or west), even though she said she gave LE the name. They never confirmed the young boy fishing either. And they never confirmed TG. They have confirmed nothing about the lake other than the bikes and purse were there and that the girls weren't in the lake. Very strange.

I'm confused. :waitasec: How do we know the jogger wasn't the guy Tammy talked to who stated he did see the girls?

***IMO, the two fisherman in the NW corner might not have been able to see the area the bikes were found because of the trees near the shoreline. It's quite a distance from end to end too.

 

[threecrazykids]

I'm confused. :waitasec: How do we know the jogger wasn't the guy Tammy talked to who stated he did see the girls?

***IMO, the two fisherman in the NW corner might not have been able to see the area the bikes were found because of the trees near the shoreline. It's quite a distance from end to end too.

The jogger only saw the bikes at 2 but no girls. Tammy's guy apparently said he saw the girls riding on the trail.

At least that's what I think I think...:floorlaugh:

 

[jenandemmie]

MOO, I do think this is the work of a sexual predator (at least one) bc of the complete lack of evidence of an abduction and the control and planning it must have taken to execute so, for lack of a better term, flawlessly. A human predator is just like an animal predator: they watch, they stalk from afar, gradually, quietly moving forward, then when the prey is in its most vulnerable position, they spring forward instantly and obtain their prey in a quick flash, then sink back into the darkness to proceed. No one saw Jessica Ridgeway get taken, in fact, it is rare that abductions are witnessed at all. That's precisely why we have so many missing kids, with no idea what happened to them. You have sightings right before the abduction, but very, very rarely is the actual abduction witnessed in these types of cases. Sexual predators turn the "game" into a craft, to refine and get better. It's their "job" to not get seen, or create a commotion. In contrast, family killings are usually heat of the moment violence or long term neglect so evidence is usually uncovered in a home or car. Contract killings/hit men usually strike quick and leave the seen as is, untouched, in order to minimize the involvement - it's just a paycheck for them. They wouldn't go through the trouble of abducting, moving bikes, etc. Revenge killings usually involve taunting the family, in a "see what you made happen?" mindset, but the revenge is only successful when the family knows it is revenge. It's a message after all, like the hit man scenario. If this were the case, I think the bodies would have been found much, much sooner.

As I said in an earlier thread about the position of the bodies, my gut has me convinced this was a pair of sexual predators, related by blood or similar familial setup. I think they were abused and victimized young, together, turned into monsters at the same time and share a certain brotherly protection for each other. In addition to that thick bond, true predators don't have the same sense of empathy that would cause one to find his conscience and break his silence. Burglars, yes, they crack and turn; drug dealers, yes, they just want to get out and get a new fix. But sexual predators, no, they don't usually crack unless its a married couple and the wife gets tired and scared, or, they are given leeway for testifying against the other after getting caught. Think about a child *advertiser censored* ring, they actually protect each other's anonymity. The cracks come when someone else outside the circle stumbles on a pic or video and turns them in, or they are infiltrated by undercover LE.

I think the pair live/work in close proximity to the house from which the girls disappeared. I think they watched enough to know their routine. I think they knew which home they were biking from. If Gma Cook frequently called out for them, the pair was probably close enough to hear. I say this because I'm assuming the girls didn't bike together from any other house. I'm sure Gma wouldn't load up the bikes everyday so the bikes probably stayed at that house. Does anyone have any info about this aspect? In other words, did Lyric's bike stay wherever she was living? What about Lizzie's bike?

 

[Marilynilpa]

I haven't bailed yet .

I agree about the staging. I don't care if it is stranger abduction or someone they knew, I can only imagine that when you snatch a couple of kids, your heart is racing and your only thought is to get out of the area. Granted, if they know you then it isn't as urgent but the adrenaline would still be pumping if you knew what you were about to do. I assume that no matter who you are, you would not want to be seen and you would high tail it the hell out of there. Even if I am wrong, there are so many closer places to stage a couple bikes that would have the same impact of searching and draining the lake. To walk (ride) the bikes to the other side, far away from your vehicle doesn't seem like the natural thing someone would do that wants to get out of there.

I think the girls did go to the lake, were snatched right there and Lizzie dropped her purse in the process. I have to throw out some timeline things to make this work, but it makes more sense to me that times have been rounded and estimated or are just wrong then an elaborate staging does.

I'm glad to see you are still here.

I've never felt comfortable with the staging theory either. I know there are persuasive arguments in favor of that - otto, in particular, makes a strong argument for staging.

But it seems like an unnecessary risk for someone to take, IMO. To me the only point in staging the bikes would be to make LE believe the girls had been there. Why would the perp care about that - he had taken the girls, apparently unseen by anyone, so why put himself at risk by taking the bikes to the lake? Why not just take the girls wherever he planned to take them and dispose of the bikes there? There are lakes, rivers, cornfields, pastures, wooded areas, vacant lots, dumpsters - all kinds of places where two bikes could be dumped where the perp wouldn't be seen. Why take the risk of going to Meyers Lake once he had the girls?

I realize the times don't "click", but they never have to me. It seems the more info we get, the more confusing it becomes to me. Even if I assume that every time released by LE is correct (12:15, 12:23, 12:30-1:00, 2:00), it does nothing to clarify things in my mind.

Based on what I've read, heard and deduced, I believe the girls DID make it to Meyers Lake that day. I believe they were there for a reason other than just biking around, and their abduction was not random. JMO

Other than that, I'm clueless.

 

[Ms Pragmatic]

The jogger only saw the bikes at 2 but no girls. Tammy's guy apparently said he saw the girls riding on the trail.

At least that's what I think I think...:floorlaugh:

According to Aunt Tammy, the person she spoke to said he saw the girls riding east. At another time, it changed to west. I just chalked that up to confusion on Aunt T's part.

But iirc, you are correct about the 2:00 sighting. It was bikes only. No girls.

 

[hollyblue]

The jogger only saw the bikes at 2 but no girls. Tammy's guy apparently said he saw the girls riding on the trail.

At least that's what I think I think...:floorlaugh:

Your right. :floorlaugh:

 

[Ms Pragmatic]

I'm glad to see you are still here.

I've never felt comfortable with the staging theory either. I know there are persuasive arguments in favor of that - otto, in particular, makes a strong argument for staging.

But it seems like an unnecessary risk for someone to take, IMO. To me the only point in staging the bikes would be to make LE believe the girls had been there. Why would the perp care about that - he had taken the girls, apparently unseen by anyone, so why put himself at risk by taking the bikes to the lake? Why not just take the girls wherever he planned to take them and dispose of the bikes there? There are lakes, rivers, cornfields, pastures, wooded areas, vacant lots, dumpsters - all kinds of places where two bikes could be dumped where the perp wouldn't be seen. Why take the risk of going to Meyers Lake once he had the girls?

I realize the times don't "click", but they never have to me. It seems the more info we get, the more confusing it becomes to me. Even if I assume that every time released by LE is correct (12:15, 12:23, 12:30-1:00, 2:00), it does nothing to clarify things in my mind.

Based on what I've read, heard and deduced, I believe the girls DID make it to Meyers Lake that day. I believe they were there for a reason other than just biking around, and their abduction was not random. JMO

Other than that, I'm clueless.

Excellent post! Thank you for stating exactly how I feel better than I could

 

[soccer mom]

What do you tell girls at this age to lure them to the lake? (they were not teenagers). Also, it needed to be a quick trip or Gma would be mad. They went a mile from home didn't tell a sibling or another friend along the way. Maybe it was a bet between the two girls that went terribly wrong.

I would have stangled my kids but then again I'm one of those overprotective parents. I know that there are lots of kids who ride around town all day with little supervision. Not saying this is the case for these two girls.

 

[JaimeInLA]

SierraShelby -
Was the car you saw at the lake either a Pontiac Grand Am or a Chevy Blazer?

 

[Ms Pragmatic]

What do you tell girls at this age to lure them to the lake? (they were not teenagers). Also, it needed to be a quick trip or Gma would be mad. They went a mile from home didn't tell a sibling or another friend along the way. Maybe it was a bet between the two girls that went terribly wrong.

I would have stangled my kids but then again I'm one of those overprotective parents. I know that there are lots of kids who ride around town all day with little supervision. Not saying this is the case for these two girls.

I've asked myself a million times what lured them to the lake. IMO, it would've been much easier for the girls to be lured there if they knew or trusted the person. The lake wasn't just a block or so away. It was a mile. If a complete stranger said that some kind of big event was going on at the lake, why wouldn't the girls run in and ask Gma if they could go? Why would they sneak away for this event or party or whatever? According to Heather, Lizzie was good about checking in. Misty and Gma said they were usually within a couple blocks---within shouting distance. I just kind of believe if they were lured to the lake, the person was somehow known/trusted by them.

 

[alliemay]

The poster say that they were last seen riding their bikes at the lake at 2:00, doesn't say by who or where, would that have been the person Tammy talked to?

http://bloximages.chicago2.vip.town...38-0019bb2963f4/5002c04654cd0.preview-699.jpg

 

[JaimeInLA]

The poster say that they were last seen riding their bikes at the lake at 2:00, doesn't say by who or where, would that have been the person Tammy talked to?

http://bloximages.chicago2.vip.town...38-0019bb2963f4/5002c04654cd0.preview-699.jpg

Does anyone know who makes these posters? Is it LE? The Family? CrimeStoppers?

 

[Ms Pragmatic]

The poster say that they were last seen riding their bikes at the lake at 2:00, doesn't say by who or where, would that have been the person Tammy talked to?

http://bloximages.chicago2.vip.town...38-0019bb2963f4/5002c04654cd0.preview-699.jpg

Well, now I'm just about dumbfounded. I think if LE wanted to clarify the timeline, they would. So many different things have been reported as far as times, I can't make heads or tails of any of it. Too many things contradicting each other. This is why I've abandoned the times of reported/supposedly confirmed sightings. They all appear to contradict one another. :banghead:

 

[Squeeze]

If one can call 911 and has a working clock on their cell phone, would the phone not ping from nearby towers?

The clocks on cell phones keep the time updated from the cell service. If it's not active, it probably won't update the clock. It would probably still work, just may not be be accurate, until a 911 call is made and it pings with the cell tower.

 

[Marilynilpa]

The poster say that they were last seen riding their bikes at the lake at 2:00, doesn't say by who or where, would that have been the person Tammy talked to?

http://bloximages.chicago2.vip.town...38-0019bb2963f4/5002c04654cd0.preview-699.jpg

I'm not sure where that time came from, because LE has never stated the girls were seen riding their bikes at the lake at 2:00.

They DID later confirm that the bikes were seen at the lake by a jogger at 2:00, but he/she did not see the girls.

Tammy talked to someone at Meyers Lakee who said he saw the girls around 2:30, but I'm not sure how accurate that time is. :waitasec:

 

[threecrazykids]

Your right. :floorlaugh:

Tammy's guy said he saw the girls at 2:30 according to this transcript.

http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1207/16/ijvm.01.html

Snipped
And one man stepped forward and said, "Yes, I seen them going east on the bike trail at about 2:30."

So...we have a jogger who saw the bikes ALONE at 2:00 and we have another person who Tammy spoke with who saw the girls riding the trail at approx 30 mins later.

So...maybe the girls were there the entire time from the time they were seen on CCTV.

Mr. Gamerdinger said he saw bikes and no girls at his sighting...then again at 2, a jogger claims HE saw the bikes and no girls...and then at 2:30 this witness Tammy spoke with claims to have seen the girls.

OK...gonna throw this out there as yet ANOTHER possible scenario to chew on. Where could the 2 girls have been at the lake that wasn't out in the open for someone to be "hanging" with them?

Bathroom? Wooded area? Pavilion? Went for a ride in a vehicle for a bit?

Maybe the girls weren't even abducted and gone until later on in the afternoon. It is fully possible for the family to have driven by the lake and not seen the girls.

So...let's ASSUME that the girls were there at 2:30 and this witness was correct.

Now what theories open up?

ETA: Tammy states she was there at a quarter to 3.
"and this was at about a quarter to 3 -- and keep in mind the last they were seen was at 11:30 a.m., when they told mom they were going on the bike ride. So that is the last time they were for sure seen. And now, it`s going on to -- it`s getting close to being a quarter to 3."

So even from the time that the witness claims he saw them riding...Tammy and crew were there at approx 2:45ish so again, within 15 mins they aren't there...but 15 mins opens up enough time for someone to abduct someone and be gone.

 

[JaimeInLA]

Tammy's guy said he saw the girls at 2:30 according to this transcript.

http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1207/16/ijvm.01.html

Snipped
And one man stepped forward and said, "Yes, I seen them going east on the bike trail at about 2:30."

So...we have a jogger who saw the bikes ALONE at 2:30 and we have another person who Tammy spoke with who saw the girls riding the trail at approx 30 mins later.

So...maybe the girls were there the entire time from the time they were seen on CCTV.

Mr. Gamerdinger said he saw bikes and no girls at his sighting...then again at 2, a jogger claims HE saw the bikes and no girls...and then at 2:30 this witness Tammy spoke with claims to have seen the girls.

OK...gonna throw this out there as yet ANOTHER possible scenario to chew on. Where could the 2 girls have been at the lake that wasn't out in the open for someone to be "hanging" with them?

Bathroom? Wooded area? Pavilion? Went for a ride in a vehicle for a bit?

Maybe the girls weren't even abducted and gone until later on in the afternoon. It is fully possible for the family to have driven by the lake and not seen the girls.

So...let's ASSUME that the girls were there at 2:30 and this witness was correct.

Now what theories open up?

I don't see that as possible. I know kids are bad at keeping time, but Grandma told them to take a QUICK bike ride and come back. They knew Lyric had to leave. For them to be still out riding around, THREE HOURS LATER -- it doesn't make sense to me. If they left at 11:30 for their bike ride, then they definitely would have realized they had been gone a LONG time by 2:30. If TG says the bikes were alone at 12:30-ish and LE says the bikes were alone at 2:00, then I think we have to discount Tammy's witness.

 

[Squeeze]

I don't count as a verification source but I know this is true. I understand the need for folks to dismiss that, due to the high level of integrity on this site--a good thing. But I am 100% confident that this is true and have seen it documented--just not msm.:banghead:

Have you called this in to the tipline? You should.