IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #26

[Marilynilpa]

Do we actually 'know' they were in a different location when TG saw them? Do we have a link telling exactly where LE found them? I am really confused if they were found anywhere near the NW corner. Even if they were found in a different location than TG saw them, they were still on the South side of the lake.

I suppose it's possible that two fishermen dropped their bikes in the middle of the path and walked around to the NW corner to fish, but I don't think it's likely. JMO

There is a link to where LE says where the bikes were found, but I can't search for it now. I know we discussed this in the earlier threads.

My reason for thinking the bikes TG saw (if they belonged to the girls) could not have been in the same location as when LE found them is simple - TG saw them laying across a path, but LE found them leaning against a fence. So if the bikes TG saw actually were Lyric and Lizzie's, they were moved after he saw them. JMO

 

[iamnotagolem]

Ok...but if 2 people were fishing on the lake how did they get the boat there? On the 2 bikes? :floorlaugh:

Or they took off on their bikes to leave the boat just float around in the lake?
:floorlaugh:

I know it's not funny...but for some reason 2 people on bikes carrying a boat is cracking me up.

The joke is probably on me...but I'm assuming the 2 people fishing were in a boat, maybe I'm wrong.

TG said he did not see any boats on the lake.

 

[otto]

A couple of minutes.

The distance between the cctv and the lake is 1.5 miles.

The average speed of a child cyclist under 13 is 8.9 mph.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1067763/

If they can travel 9 miles an hour, at recreational speed, 1.5 miles will only take them...um..a few minutes depending how fast they go. (not so good at maths).

So it's easily doable, in fact the times fit perfectly for an instant, unseen ambush and snatch. Especially if it was well-planned.

:cow:

9/60 = 1.5/x

x=10 minutes to ride 1.5 miles. There's a confirmed sighting of the bikes at the gate at 2:00 PM, so plenty of time.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Hope this is better. : ) From the Courier:

Snipped: "Abben also gave new details as to times and locations the girls were last seen July 13.

Deputies said the girls were seen at about 12:23 p.m. July 13 on Brovan Boulevard in Evansdale, and then spotted between 12:30 and 1 p.m. on Gilbert Drive not far from Meyers Lake. Their bikes and a purse were later found on a trial behind the lake. Authorities are asking that anyone in the area of Arbutus Avenue and Gilbert Drive that day notify law enforcement."

http://wcfcourier.com/news/evansdal...cle_e5ee619c-fe0f-11e1-a74a-001a4bcf887a.html

ShyViolet, you are a constant treasure on these threads. Your willingness to find sources and then check those sources is much appreciated.

Just sayin'.

 

[otto]

The bikes were found exactly where TG saw them. He posted here over the weekend that they were "at the gate" when he swerved around them, and that the gate was closed. He said this was not the "people" gate closer to Maiden Lane, it was the "gate by the rocks where people fish." That is the exact spot where the bikes were found by the searchers.

I wonder why the photos of the cyclist talking with police are on the double fenced part of the trail, but not at the gate.

 

[SapphireSteel]

There is a link to where LE says where the bikes were found, but I can't search for it now. I know we discussed this in the earlier threads.

My reason for thinking the bikes TG saw (if they belonged to the girls) could not have been in the same location as when LE found them is simple - TG saw them laying across a path, but LE found them leaning against a fence. So if the bikes TG saw actually were Lyric and Lizzie's, they were moved after he saw them. JMO

Do you have a link for that?

Tia.

 

[Sere-nity]

Ok how about a vehicle driving 25-30 mph(assumed speed limit). How long would it take to get from Brovan to Gilbert to Maiden Lane?

 

[MNDad]

I do apologise, and I mean that. I don't realise how I sound sometimes.

Perhaps you need to view my comments in context.

I have been on this case, every single day, since July 13, along with a handful of other dedicated sleuthers.

There have been many incidences of - Witness bashing, LE bashing, Witness sleuthing, General frustration, Inaccuracies stated as fact. This is normal and part of the process.

I have largely sat by and said nothing, while feeling the frustration you speak of, almost daily, for a lot of reasons. I cannot post my opinions freely on this one as it would have me on time out.

The following are all posts I made wayyyy back in July, sbm for brevity and relevance.



That was me politely defending the FBI's 8 minute timeline, which at that stage was being doubted and sleuthed.

That was me on the timing and the cctv, the black part is msm. The sightings fit the Police Timeline...they always have done.



Me standing up for LE...way back in JULY. :what:



The above was me formulating my theory out loud, and it has been set in stone ever since.

Now I've just read that TG is "mistaken" and "LE have no idea", within the last day.

Even though SS has so generously given of his time, and got verified, still he is doubted. Even though the 8 minutes from Cornbelt Auctions to the Lake is in MSM as the Police timeline, and completely achievable within an average travel speed by kids on bikes, as has also been hashed over here.

Yeah, I know frustration. Six months of it. Sorry if I let it show...but as you said, we should all feel free to express them, every now and then.

:seeya:

BTW - reading my posts, I can't honestly see where I "present opinions as fact" anywhere, so perhaps you could point an example out to me so I can see where I do it. :dunno:

I'm already over it. I think it just rubbed me wrong because I don't want to see anyone's actions as giving up on the girls, regardless of their frustrations or stamina.

As for statements as fact, I think it was just a general feeling in some short responses that discount others' theories quickly. I will just retract that because I don't have time to look into it and provide examples.

BTW, I am currently sharing similar theories as you.

 

[SapphireSteel]

9/60 = 1.5/x

x=10 minutes to ride 1.5 miles. There's a confirmed sighting of the bikes at the gate at 2:00 PM, so plenty of time.

What I'm trying to say is that if the cctv is considered 12.15, and TG's sighting was AROUND 12.20, say 12.23 or 24, that leaves 8 or 10 minutes for the girls to get 1.5 miles.

Which is actually the precise minimum amount of time required for a well planned snatch scenario to take place.

The girls and their abductor may well have been still at the lake when TG went past. He only ever saw the bikes, the girls could still have been there somewhere.

Also, if gramma and kelly were looking from 12.30 (which is when Drew came home) then why didn't they find the girls?

 

[otto]

They were found in the same spot. In the past, we assumed it was a different spot, based on the photo of TG talking to investigators. However, in just the past few days here on WS, Otto asked TG where he saw the bikes, and he said it was not where he was photographed. It was at the gate, exactly where they were found later that day. If you search for SierraShelby's posts, you can read it from the horse's mouth.

(LOL! See what I did there?!)
:floorlaugh:

 

[foxbluff]

I always like to hear your input, but you do have a tendency to present your opinions as fact. There are plenty of reasons to be confused by the moving timeline and to discount others here is condescending. I know you have strong opinions and I even know what they are, but bottom line, you do not actually know if your assumptions are correct. As for the little stab at those of us who are finding this frustrating and are considering the possibility that are contributions will not help; we are not giving up on the girls. The girls are dead and there is no changing that. They do deserve justice and others deserve protection, but is it really wrong that some of us think that it may not come via this site? We want to participate and hopefully help, but we also need to be able to feel free to express our frustrations every now and then without someone accusing us of giving up on the girls.

I, too, always like to hear SapphireSteel's input. She is one of my five faves on WS and, IMHO, is the best of anybody in being able to keep a thread moving... even in the "dry spells" onboard.

And, unlike some of us, I think she does an excellent job of stating that her posts are in her opinion.

This is in my opinion only, of course, but perhaps if you ask nicely SapphireSteel will let you borrow her little Cow Smiley. lol

 

[24Roses]

When we go fishing we park and start fishing then work our way around the pond or lake until we find where the fish are biting. I doubt that fisherman would move their bikes with them as they moved around the lake. JMO I don't think the bikes proximity to the fishermen discount them being their bikes.

If the bikes belonged to the fishermen though, to me it would be common sense for them to have put them out of bike trail path before going fishing. That is what is making me think it's not their bikes. :moo:

 

[otto]

What I'm trying to say is that if the cctv is considered 12.15, and TG's sighting was AROUND 12.20, say 12.23 or 24, that leaves 8 or 10 minutes for the girls to get 1.5 miles.

Which is actually the precise minimum amount of time required for a well planned snatch scenario to take place.

The girls and their abductor may well have been still at the lake when TG went past. He only ever saw the bikes, the girls could still have been there somewhere.

Also, if gramma and kelly were looking from 12.30 (which is when Drew came home) then why didn't they find the girls?

Some time has to be added for the girls to get off their bikes and disappear into this air. The double fenced area is about 400 feet long (gate to end of double fence) and they weren't riding their bikes.

 

[SapphireSteel]

I wonder why the photos of the cyclist talking with police are on the double fenced part of the trail, but not at the gate.

You know that was taken later in the week, right?

Likely the crime scene had already been processed and cleared up by the stage the pic was taken...or was still roped off.

 

[otto]

If the bikes belonged to the fishermen though, to me it would be common sense for them to have put them out of bike trail path before going fishing. That is what is making me think it's not their bikes. :moo:

Sierrashelby posted that he saw two fisherman on the NW side of the lake. The bikes were on the SE side.

 

[otto]

You know that was taken later in the week, right?

Likely the crime scene had already been processed and cleared up by the stage the pic was taken...or was still roped off.

I don't think it would make any difference. If police wanted to discuss a witness statement at the scene of a crime, it surprises me that they would decide to meet 400 feet away instead of at the actual scene of the crime.

 

[SapphireSteel]

I'm already over it. I think it just rubbed me wrong because I don't want to see anyone's actions as giving up on the girls, regardless of their frustrations or stamina.

As for statements as fact, I think it was just a general feeling in some short responses that discount others' theories quickly. I will just retract that because I don't have time to look into it and provide examples.

BTW, I am currently sharing similar theories as you.

Thank you for your gracious response.

 

[JaimeInLA]

I wonder why the photos of the cyclist talking with police are on the double fenced part of the trail, but not at the gate.

That was not the same day. He swerved around the bikes on Friday. He was photographed talking to the police on Monday.

 

[GrainneDhu]

I'm not saying the bikes were those of the fishermen. I was simply stating that it's possible, IMO. Maybe my dad was an exception, but when he went fishing he'd go to the "perfect" spot. Shortly thereafter, he'd realize his spot wasn't so perfect after all. He'd take his fishing pole, walk down a ways, fish a little, walk some more, etc. It was a smaller lake, and sometimes he'd wind up walking almost around it in an effort to find fish.

So given my experience, it is possible that two fishermen put their bikes down in one location but wound up fishing somewhere else. JMO

I feel that since two bikes were seen, and two fishermen were seen, the possibility exists that these bikes belonged to them.

I remember doing that when I went fishing as a child, too. We'd start in one place that seemed good (but usually more in terms of shade to sit in, proximity to trail, etc, rather than the actual preferences of fish) and then when our patience for one spot ran out, we'd move maybe 20-40 feet and try again.

Bicycle theft of kid's bikes was unheard of in those days. The occasional prank where a bicycle was found in one place and moved to another spot, sure. But not outright theft. The pranked bicycle owners always got their bikes back within a relatively short period of time because the pranksters always hung around to see the bicycle owners' faces (what would be the point if you didn't?).

 

[JaimeInLA]

I, too, always like to hear SapphireSteel's input. She is one of my five faves on WS and, IMHO, is the best of anybody in being able to keep a thread moving... even in the "dry spells" onboard.

And, unlike some of us, I think she does an excellent job of stating that her posts are in her opinion.

This is in my opinion only, of course, but perhaps if you ask nicely SapphireSteel will let you borrow her little Cow Smiley. lol

Who are your other 4 faves?!?!?

:floorlaugh: :floorlaugh: :floorlaugh: :floorlaugh: