IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #26

[SapphireSteel]

SapphireSteel, here is the link to the information about the bikes being found at 2:00 PM.

http://www.iowa.gov/odcp/docs/missingIowagirls.pdf

This has also been posted in the last week.

Didnt we decide that was a typo?

Didn't NCMC also say Lyric was 5'11"?

 

[otto]

Maybe, just speculating, that 2oclock guy moved the bikes off the trail... I assume they were a hazard on the trail

They would be a hazard for a cyclist, but not a jogger ... and the cyclist didn't move the bikes that he saw at 12:20.

The trail is 10 feet wide.

 

[otto]

Didnt we decide that was a typo?

Didn't NCMC also say Lyric was 5'11"?

Do you have a link saying that the official statement is a typo?
tia

 

[keyleigh]

However, the three things you mentioned were not LE resources. The kayaks on the lake were volunteer firefighters. The divers were from the Black Hawk Sheriff's department and would not ordinarily be involved in investigating an abduction, so they were not taking away from the investigation. Draining the lake also involved personnel that would not otherwise have been involved in the investigation.

Even the FBI divers and sidescan radar operators didn't take away from the investigation because they would not have been involved in it otherwise.

While the lake was the big showy media piece, the investigation was proceeding in other locations. There were locals posting that there were traffic checks, continued questioning of potential witnesses, all the things that LE would have been doing had the lake not been involved at all.

Sorry, I should have clarified. In general if it looks like it might involve a drowning or the water, those resources would be utilized first. Especially here, not sure about there obviously as we have different procedures.

I was just thinking out loud and trying to get into the perps thinking about how the search might go.

 

[RNER]

I'm glad to see you are still here.

I've never felt comfortable with the staging theory either. I know there are persuasive arguments in favor of that - otto, in particular, makes a strong argument for staging.

But it seems like an unnecessary risk for someone to take, IMO. To me the only point in staging the bikes would be to make LE believe the girls had been there. Why would the perp care about that - he had taken the girls, apparently unseen by anyone, so why put himself at risk by taking the bikes to the lake? Why not just take the girls wherever he planned to take them and dispose of the bikes there? There are lakes, rivers, cornfields, pastures, wooded areas, vacant lots, dumpsters - all kinds of places where two bikes could be dumped where the perp wouldn't be seen. Why take the risk of going to Meyers Lake once he had the girls?

I realize the times don't "click", but they never have to me. It seems the more info we get, the more confusing it becomes to me. Even if I assume that every time released by LE is correct (12:15, 12:23, 12:30-1:00, 2:00), it does nothing to clarify things in my mind.

Based on what I've read, heard and deduced, I believe the girls DID make it to Meyers Lake that day. I believe they were there for a reason other than just biking around, and their abduction was not random. JMO

Other than that, I'm clueless.

Agree...and I don't think you're "clueless".

 

[callyn]

Start listening at 8:40

Lyric Cook & Elizabeth Collins: 7/18/12 *** AUDIO ONLY*** - YouTube

Abben emphasizes "when I got here, the bikes were leaning against the fence. I do not hear him say where the bikes were actually found, just that by the time he arrived, they were against the fence. He goes on to say he has no idea who put them there.

 

[otto]

Abben emphasizes "when I got here, the bikes were leaning against the fence. I do not hear him say where the bikes were actually found, just that by the time he arrived, they were against the fence. He goes on to say he has no idea who put them there.

That's what has always been said on this forum ... that when he got there, the bikes were leaning against the fence. It was a crime scene and he's in charge ... I doubt anyone meddled with the scene before he got there, but perhaps it happened.

 

[soccer mom]

I found this on the msm today.

"Resident Robert Carpenter said he didn't think anything about seeing the girls because it's such a common occurrence." Mr. & Mrs. Carpenter live 1/2 mile north of the lake. They state that the girls do ride their bikes "commonly" by their home. Mr. Carpenter believes that he may have seem them between 12pm & 3pm ride past his home on the day that they went missing. He was out watering his lawn. If nothing else maybe that sheds light on the questions regarding how far the girls ride. They state that Elizabeth is very friendly & will speak to anyone she meets. Maybe the girls stopped to talk to the wrong person on the trail that day.
http://www.kwqc.com/story/19044405/witness-said-he-saw-missing-iowa-girls-after-their-disappearance

 

[JaimeInLA]

I don't know HOW I missed this link but I hadn't ever seen this video.

http://wcfcourier.com/video-the-sea...mix_5b456bfa-ce01-11e1-92c2-0019bb2963f4.html

I find the first few seconds of Abben's statement to be in complete contradiction of what is in the transcripts of what happened that day according to interviews with the family members.

He states that Misty came home from work to pick up Lyric (around 2) and when she wasn't there "she thought they should be back" (I'm not sure who SHE is that he refers...Misty or Grandma) and started searching (driving around).

This is a blatant contradiction to what Misty, Tammy, Grandma have stated in their transcripts as to the first moments of realizing the girls are missing.

I'm going to keep looking for new videos I've missed.

I'm not saying anyone is lying...I'm just realizing I've obviously missed videos of what LE is confirming happened. This interview in particular does NOT relay to me that anyone was alarmed these girls were missing and that Misty was the first person who went driving around to search?!:banghead:

Off to find more videos!:seeya:

Abben is only contradicting Misty and Wylma. Tammy said all along that nobody started searching until Misty came home from work as scheduled. (See the NG transcript)

 

[JaimeInLA]

:great::great::great::great:

FOR THE LOVE THANK YOU!!

Otto - YOU ROCK! I knew I wasn't crazy.

And I'm going to assume that no one moved those bikes (meaning the fireman who found them).

Don't assume that. They thought they girls drowned at first.

 

[carbuff]

No question in my mind.

Apart from anything else, have you ever tried riding a bike while carrying a fishing pole?

:lol:

Actually, yes. Rather frequently when my brother and I were young.

We usually left our bikes near the road, then walked down to the streams. Drifted along, sometimes quite a long way.

Most times, we came home with fish in one hand and poles in the other.

 

[callyn]

That's what has always been said on this forum ... that when he got there, the bikes were leaning against the fence. It was a crime scene and he's in charge ... I doubt anyone meddled with the scene before he got there, but perhaps it happened.

bbm
What I have read a lot on this forum is that the bikes were found leaning against the fence. I am only pointing out that we really do not know that as a fact.

We are all free to believe what we wish. I believe that we do not know for sure that the bikes were originally found at 3:58 propped against the fence. We are also free to agree to disagree. :silenced:

 

[SapphireSteel]

Ha Abben strikes again.

I went back through the threads and found this -

08-01-2012, 08:58 AM
Jules71
Registered User Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Washington State
Posts: 3,588

Quote:
Originally Posted by cckeepsakes
And was the 3:58 confirmed somewhere official from LE as the find by the fire fighter? I still haven't been able to find that.

I keep thinking that was when the other LE types showed up.

Abben stated in a press conference that the bikes were found at 3:58.

__________________

Note the post was a month after so memories were very fresh at the time we discussed this, and a lot of the early mis-reporting had been clarified.

08-01-2012, 08:33 AM
GGE
GGE = GonnaGetEm Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: upstate NY
Posts: 663

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shelby2
I am still trying to come up with a timeline!!

The FACTUAL timeline is very simple.

Grandma sent them out riding bikes at 11:30 (or they left to ride bikes, whatever)

She looked out and saw them around 12:15.

This was confirmed with the video camera behind Ledermans, time stamp of 12:11 and/or 12:13 but the owner said this could have been as much as 8- minutes slow, meaning 12:11 and/or 12:13 is more like 12:19 and/or 12:21.

LE says they found the bikes at 3:58.

Nothing else official to the timeline.

There's loads back there all along the same lines, it resulted in the above being agreed as the only LE confirmed facts as to when the bikes were found.

There has been no further reference to either 12.23 nor 2pm, since the above, exclusive of the FBI mentioning the "jogger" who may have actually been TG.

Clear as mud.

 

[ShyViolet]

Ha Abben strikes again.

I went back through the threads and found this -


08-01-2012, 08:58 AM
Jules71
Registered User Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Washington State
Posts: 3,588

Quote:
Originally Posted by cckeepsakes
And was the 3:58 confirmed somewhere official from LE as the find by the fire fighter? I still haven't been able to find that.

I keep thinking that was when the other LE types showed up.

Abben stated in a press conference that the bikes were found at 3:58.

__________________

Note the post was a month after so memories were very fresh at the time we discussed this, and a lot of the early mis-reporting had been clarified.



There's loads back there all along the same lines, it resulted in the above being agreed as the only LE confirmed facts as to when the bikes were found.

There has been no further reference to either 12.23 nor 2pm, since the above, exclusive of the FBI mentioning the "jogger" who I suspect was actually TG.

Clear as mud.

The 12:23 time at Brovan, along with the sighting of the girls between 12:30 and 1:00 pm on Gilbert was not officially released until a couple of months into the investigation. I just posted the link and quote, twice.

 

[foxbluff]

They weren't discussing his witness statement. They were merely walking the trail, and he was out on another bike ride. He happened to see them, so he stopped to see how it was going. This is from the Courier article that had that photo. Or, I'm sure SierraShelby can confirm it for us himself when he comes back.

Yes, yes, yes !!!

 

[JaimeInLA]

So you don't think there's even a remote possibility that the bikes belong to the two fishermen Mr. G saw?

I'm not trying to pick on you, just want to be sure I understand your position.

I know you didn't ask me, but I want to answer. :great:

In my opinion, not a chance!

1) The fisherman were grown men. Why would they ride bikes to go fishing instead of driving a car?

2) The bikes TG saw were in the EXACT SAME SPOT as the bikes the searchers found, which belonged to the girls.

3) The fisherman were on the opposite side of the lake. (Sure, they could have meandered around, but why not move their bikes with them?)

4) Is it even possible to ride a bike with a fishing pole and a tackle box?

5) The chances of two bikes that were NOT the girls' bikes being discarded in the EXACT SAME SPOT on the EXACT SAME DAY that the girls' bikes WERE discarded there, in a park that is rarely used for bike riding (per Ollipop), have to be so astronomically miniscule that I'd call it virtually impossible.

 

[otto]

Ha Abben strikes again.

I went back through the threads and found this -



Note the post was a month after so memories were very fresh at the time we discussed this, and a lot of the early mis-reporting had been clarified.



There's loads back there all along the same lines, it resulted in the above being agreed as the only LE confirmed facts as to when the bikes were found.

There has been no further reference to either 12.23 nor 2pm, since the above, exclusive of the FBI mentioning the "jogger" who may have actually been TG.

Clear as mud.

Police mentioned a "runner". They denied knowing anything about a cyclist. The bikes were confirmed to be at the fence at 2:00 PM.

http://www.iowa.gov/odcp/docs/missingIowagirls.pdf

 

[otto]

I know you didn't ask me, but I want to answer. :great:

In my opinion, not a chance!

1) The fisherman were grown men. Why would they ride bikes to go fishing instead of driving a car?

2) The bikes TG saw were in the EXACT SAME SPOT as the bikes the searchers found, which belonged to the girls.

3) The fisherman were on the opposite side of the lake. (Sure, they could have meandered around, but why not move their bikes with them?)

4) Is it even possible to ride a bike with a fishing pole and a tackle box?

5) The chances of two bikes that were NOT the girls' bikes being discarded in the EXACT SAME SPOT on the EXACT SAME DAY that the girls' bikes WERE discarded there, in a park that is rarely used for bike riding (per Ollipop), have to be so astronomically miniscule that I'd call it virtually impossible.

If the bikes were confirmed to be at the location where they were found at 4 PM as early as 12:27, why do official reports state 2:00 PM?

 

[RNER]

No question in my mind.

Apart from anything else, have you ever tried riding a bike while carrying a fishing pole?
:lol:

All the time...Actually I see more people riding bikes with fishing poles to small lakes, ponds, rivers than I see people walking or driving cars!

 

[SapphireSteel]

Actually, yes. Rather frequently when my brother and I were young.
We usually left our bikes near the road, then walked down to the streams. Drifted along, sometimes quite a long way.

Most times, we came home with fish in one hand and poles in the other.

Yes I can picture that.

But these two were adults or one adult and one younger person, which means someone probably had access to a car...so why bike awkwardly to a lake to catch tiddlers?

Also, allegedly Elizabeth and Lyric were the only two cyclists caught on cctv that day, in all of Evansdale.

Your childhood determination (mine too, maybe I tried to bike holding a hockey stick or a tennis raquet once, it seems familiar) doesn't alter the statistical likliehood of the girls dumping their bikes in the exact same spot as two far away fishermen, as being one in a million, literally.

Add that in to chances that a grown male American adult would choose to bike anywhere voluntarily holding a fishing rod, and you've got reasonable doubt in my book.

Some things I just can't get past and the above are good examples. Alone, maybe. Together...it's just too much.

I'm think the bikes belonged to the girls, and/or the perps (staging purposes). I think they had just been laid down when TG went by, and I think they were rearranged when he left. And there they sat until someone official went and looked for them.

:cow: