IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #28

[simlyme]

I have a hard time understanding how Christian forgiveness can co-exist with the death penalty, but I grew up in Texas where the Bible never stands in the way of an execution. JMO. I know a lot of folks who would find nothing unusual about Heather and Drew stating they have forgiven the killer(s) and yet want them to be executed. As a teenager, I asked my parents why they felt it was okay for people to be executed. I was told that while God's law means we should forgive those who harm us (I'm paraphrasing, sorry), we are free to enact man's law against those who harm us. I wasn't able to grasp that concept then, nor am I able to grasp it now, but I know a lot of good folks who firmly believe it.

I really dont want to get into a "religion" debate, but I was curious as to an understanding of the topic (death penalty and Christians)
I did some googling and found this writing to be fairly simple(for me) to better understand it.
http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/cap-pun.html

 

[SapphireSteel]

People need to be careful of what they wish for.

Heather and Drew may say this now, but the thing is, how can they or anyone be sure at this stage that the perp is not also a loved one?

Does it then become, I want the DP, but not if it's my son/grandson/bffs son/nephew who is found guilty?

The desire is understandable if the perp is an all round oxegyn thief, but not many people are totally disgusting and evil through and through. Sometimes "good" people do terrible things, especially it seems where that awful drug is concerned. It doesn't mean they weren't/aren't lovable and loved at some stage, and you will be causing other innocents to also suffer huge grief if you insist on taking the life of their (guilty) loved one. Even oxegyn thieves have children that love them.

It just seems to me that two wrongs don't make a right. :dunno:

At the end of the day the main reason we abolished the DP here is because we don't trust our politicians enough to administer it properly. We don't trust them with our taxes, and we most certainly don't trust them with an individual's life. LE are funded by the government. It's just a bit naive to support a system of legal murder, especially when we know corruption exists, and evidence can be manufactured.

Only poor people tend to get executed, and far too many are being exonerated later.

http://www.innocenceproject.org/

 

[georger]

Foxbluff made a request that I re-post this, so here goes!

(Otto made a good point so I changed my wording.)

:thewave: Calling all of you out-of-towners!!

I know a lot of you have been wondering what the locals here think about certain things. So what question would you most like to ask a local? I'm volunteering to ask on your behalf.
The questions must stay within the board rules here so I can answer your post. :tos: I'll only be asking questions from the locals that I know, so no driving around town with my window down harrassing strangers on the street, o.k? :giggle: Alright, ask away!! :seeya:

Well, you have no idea how much your presence means here, including any Local. It must feel strange coming here with total strangers but I hope WE haven't let you down. What else could we do? That's one question...

What is the local mood? Is this present situation what locals expected? This matter hanging on, no word from LE, etc etc. I realise you can't take a poll.

Maybe this also: Is there something locals wish could be done or would be done, under the present circumstances?

Thanks.
G.

 

[Fukiyama]

There were also some before they were abducted, don't have links but I wrote the some of the info down: West side of Perry Iowa, May 19, three girls were stopped, ages 8-10, person asking directions to a store, person asked the kids to take him there, the girls ran. Forest city, tan panel work style van, asian man 50-60 yrs. old, short, two people in the van, stopped three kids on bikes. Don't have the date for that one. Read another incident that a child was stopped and asked where a certain church was located, just then the mother came out of the house, she asked the man what he wanted, he repeated to her that he was looking for a church, she said that her and her son would get in their car and the man could follow them to the church, when the woman pulled into the church parking lot, the man that was following drove straight instead of pulling in the parking lot. I think there were a few more but I didn't write them down.

I think the Asian guy is the most credible because as I recall, it was also an older Asian man who wanted to find the church. The other ones could go either way as far as true possible abductions or just misunderstandings by paranoid parents.

On the religion vs. death penalty debate, I don't want to get too in depth on that, but I will note a few things. While the Ten Commandments do prohibit death, the larger Law of Moses does prescribe death for quite a few offenses. When reading, 'thou shall not kill,' it needs to be thought of more like, 'don't kill your neighbor just because he has bad breath,' whereas the instances of death being a prescribed punishment are punishments for breaking God's law.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

The reason why I do not understand saying that you forgive a killer--but also wanting them to receive the death penalty---is because I thought the point of forgiveness was so you can move past something. If the killer gets the DP, there will be years of appeals. I just feel it will be harder to truly move forward, which I think is what the point of forgiveness is. Plus, considering that Iowa does not have the DP, it would probably be a very long, and strenuous process to try to get it reinstated. I do not really understand saying you forgive someone...and then putting in probably years of effort and time to get your state's constitution changed so he gets the DP. Not to mention, the additional notoriety that the killer would get from being the only person on Iowa's Death Row, the person who brought it back to the state after decades of being illegal....

(But since the DP was not legal in Iowa when the girls were killed, I do not believe there is anyway the killer can be sentenced to it).

 

[Fukiyama]

The reason why I do not understand saying that you forgive a killer--but also wanting them to receive the death penalty---is because I thought the point of forgiveness was so you can move past something. If the killer gets the DP, there will be years of appeals. I just feel it will be harder to truly move forward, which I think is what the point of forgiveness is. Plus, considering that Iowa does not have the DP, it would probably be a very long, and strenuous process to try to get it reinstated. I do not really understand saying you forgive someone...and then putting in probably years of effort and time to get your state's constitution changed so he gets the DP. Not to mention, the additional notoriety that the killer would get from being the only person on Iowa's Death Row, the person who brought it back to the state after decades of being illegal....

(But since the DP was not legal in Iowa when the girls were killed, I do not believe there is anyway the killer can be sentenced to it).

Good points. I'm neither Protestant nor pro-DP. Catholics like myself believe that even though we are forgiven, we will still have to be punished/make restitution for our sins. That's on a spiritual level, but understanding the concept helps show how Heather and Drew can forgive Elizabeth's killer, but also want to see him appropriately punished.

I think you're right about any new DP law not applying to the killer. Will it serve as a deterrence to more crimes like Elizabeth and Lyric? That is different question.

 

[foxbluff]

Foxbluff made a request that I re-post this, so here goes!

(Otto made a good point so I changed my wording.)

:thewave: Calling all of you out-of-towners!!

I know a lot of you have been wondering what the locals here think about certain things. So what question would you most like to ask a local? I'm volunteering to ask on your behalf.
The questions must stay within the board rules here so I can answer your post. :tos: I'll only be asking questions from the locals that I know, so no driving around town with my window down harrassing strangers on the street, o.k? :giggle: Alright, ask away!! :seeya:

Thank you !!

If I could be a little "fly on the wall" listening to what locals are saying, I would want to overhear a discussion on what questions LE asked them and/or acquaintances of theirs.

ETA: Ohhh... and if LE pops in to question you as to your interest in the case... please have a friend in next room writing down what questions they ask. lol

 

[chelsea6]

Thank you !!

If I could be a little "fly on the wall" listening to what locals are saying, I would want to overhear a discussion on what questions LE asked them and/or acquaintances of theirs.

TA: Ohhh... and if LE pops in to question you as to your interest in the case... please have a friend in next room writing down what questions they ask..lol

You are very welcome! I know this thread is getting long, going over the same thing day after day with nothing new to hear. :waiting: Not being locals, you can't really talk to anyone about your questions except the posters here you've already talked to. I just thought this would be nice to read and talk about while we are waiting to hear something from the LE. :cop:

I'm writing down everyone's questions for when I get around a lot of people I know at a local restaurant/pub hopefully later tonight. For a frame of reference, the people I know and will be asking are all local business owners as well as their wives.

I only know one person that was questioned by LE, but I'm not comfortable asking him questions like that directly. hoh: I'll ask a member of his family, because that's who told me that he was questioned in the first place, and knows what happened.

Yes, Fox, if LE wish to question boring little me, I'll make sure and post every little detail...lol :winko: (after calling in 3 tips already, I'm sure they already think I'm :alien: :giggle: )

 

[foxbluff]

Off/Topic - but IMO wonderfully so. Ohh that all cases could be so easily solved. :floorlaugh:

Iowa police: Pair mistakes station for strip club
February 04, 2013 18:11 GMT
DES MOINES, Iowa (AP) -- Authorities in Des Moines say a woman was arrested after she and another person accidently drove to a police station looking for a strip club.

The female passenger was arrested early Friday for possession of a controlled substance after officers stopped her and the male driver. The pair had driven their vehicle into a private area of the police station after looking for a strip club in West Des Moines. <snipped>


http://www.cbs2iowa.com/shared/newsroom/top_stories/videos/kgan_vid_12130.shtml

 

[chelsea6]

I just called the Buck Clark, our Waterloo mayors office, and he was busy the rest of the day. The secretary said he was getting ready for a city council meeting tonight. I told her, "Great, could you relay some information to him for me?" Then I told her about asking if he or the LE could make a statement concerning the Elizabeth/Lyric Evansdale girls that were found dead, to let us know even though there is still no new information that they care about our safety as a community, etc.
She told me they can't really do that because this concerns Evansdale police, and this is Waterloo. It would be sort of like stepping on someone's toes for one city to comment on another towns affairs. As far as new information, she didn't know if the exact cause of death was given, but that would certainly be tied into trying to find the person or persons that did this, which would be handled under the authority of the town of Evansdale.

I'm not good at shorthand, so this is MOO, basically from all of the conversation. :cow:

 

[looks like rain]

Could someone please remind me when Dan's trial is scheduled? TIA

 

[SapphireSteel]

I just called the Buck Clark, our Waterloo mayors office, and he was busy the rest of the day. The secretary said he was getting ready for a city council meeting tonight. I told her, "Great, could you relay some information to him for me?" Then I told her about asking if he or the LE could make a statement concerning the Elizabeth/Lyric Evansdale girls that were found dead, to let us know even though there is still no new information that they care about our safety as a community, etc.
She told me they can't really do that because this concerns Evansdale police, and this is Waterloo. It would be sort of like stepping on someone's toes for one city to comment on another towns affairs. As far as new information, she didn't know if the exact cause of death was given, but that would certainly be tied into trying to find the person or persons that did this, which would be handled under the authority of the town of Evansdale.

I'm not good at shorthand, so this is MOO, basically from all of the conversation. :cow:

See my post re POLITICS. :banghead:

Maybe Evansdale PD NEED their toes stepped on?

I love what you're doing, good on you, if the whole town did it maybe someone would wake up that people are very worried and increasingly unhappy with LE silence.

Also, if they have a Council meeting, you are perfectly entitled to attend, to request to speak, then stand up and address all the councillors and the gallery, and ask this question of the mayor directly (I used to work for the City, I know how they play).

This will cause all sorts of kerfuffle as Councillors usually have a "day job" and just want to have their say and ask questions themselves, not provide any sort of educated answers.

Reporters routinely attend these things but you could take the precaution of calling one and informing him to ensure he is at that particular council meeting.

Again, GOOD FOR YOU! These girls apparently need a hero. If I was there I'd go with you, I'm starting a fledging business as a legal advocate and I thoroughly enjoy puncturing the egos and bs of those "in charge".

 

[threecrazykids]

See my post re POLITICS. :banghead:

I love what you're doing, good on you, if the whole town did it maybe someone would wake up that people are very worried and increasingly unhappy with LE silence.

Also, if they have a Council meeting, you are perfectly entitled to attend, to request to speak, then stand up and address all the councillors and the gallery, and ask this question of the mayor directly (I used to work for the City, I know how they play).

This will cause all sorts of kerfuffle as Councillors usually have a "day job" and just want to have their say and ask questions themselves, not provide any sort of educated answers.

Reporters routinely attend these things but you could take the precaution of calling one and informing him to ensure he is at that particular council meeting.

Again, GOOD FOR YOU! These girls apparently need a hero.

O/T:

kerfuffle is going to be my word of the day tomorrow - I'm going to see just how many times I can use it in general conversation :floorlaugh:

 

[SapphireSteel]

O/T:

kerfuffle is going to be my word of the day tomorrow - I'm going to see just how many times I can use it in general conversation :floorlaugh:

Sadly, you will be able to use it A LOT.

 

[foxbluff]

Could someone please remind me when Dan's trial is scheduled? TIA

My notes say that his trial is set for 9 a.m. March 4, 2013 at the Scott County Courthouse in Davenport.

There had been some mention of a pre-trial conference that would be held in mid-Feb., but I haven't been able to find a date for that.

 

[Tucarra]

I just called the Buck Clark, our Waterloo mayors office, and he was busy the rest of the day. The secretary said he was getting ready for a city council meeting tonight. I told her, "Great, could you relay some information to him for me?" Then I told her about asking if he or the LE could make a statement concerning the Elizabeth/Lyric Evansdale girls that were found dead, to let us know even though there is still no new information that they care about our safety as a community, etc.
She told me they can't really do that because this concerns Evansdale police, and this is Waterloo. It would be sort of like stepping on someone's toes for one city to comment on another towns affairs. As far as new information, she didn't know if the exact cause of death was given, but that would certainly be tied into trying to find the person or persons that did this, which would be handled under the authority of the town of Evansdale.

I'm not good at shorthand, so this is MOO, basically from all of the conversation. :cow:

Thanks so much for your personal energy...

Feel pretty useless being half way across the country...but think I'm going to look up Senators in IA...

That should inject some energy...hopefully...

So dissappointed you received what sounds like a 'blah, blah, blah' answer (if you can call it that) ...but it's not the person answering the phone that 'sets the tone'...

 

[otto]

I just called the Buck Clark, our Waterloo mayors office, and he was busy the rest of the day. The secretary said he was getting ready for a city council meeting tonight. I told her, "Great, could you relay some information to him for me?" Then I told her about asking if he or the LE could make a statement concerning the Elizabeth/Lyric Evansdale girls that were found dead, to let us know even though there is still no new information that they care about our safety as a community, etc.
She told me they can't really do that because this concerns Evansdale police, and this is Waterloo. It would be sort of like stepping on someone's toes for one city to comment on another towns affairs. As far as new information, she didn't know if the exact cause of death was given, but that would certainly be tied into trying to find the person or persons that did this, which would be handled under the authority of the town of Evansdale.

I'm not good at shorthand, so this is MOO, basically from all of the conversation. :cow:

I think that this is the same answer you will get any time you contact someone outside of the police department that is handling the case. Everyone has their job description and they cannot step outside of that role without risking some sort of negative consequence. It seems to me that the only answer you'll get is that police are doing their job and that when they need input from the public, they will make a request. Until that time, I think it is expected that people have faith in the officers that are trained to do their jobs, and who are doing that job with the assistance of the FBI.

 

[otto]

Chelsea, I'm not sure how it works in Iowa, but in many places, a prosecutor is assigned to a case as soon as it develops (Iowa may be an exception). If that is the case in Iowa, then there will be a prosecutor assigned to the case. Outside of the Evansdale police department, that would be the only other office that could provide information. You could probably contact the prosecutor's office and ask for the name of the prosecutor that is overseeing the case. That prosecutor may, or may not, be willing to talk with you.

I don't think that the mayor, or city council can do anything in this case.

Are you looking for some reassurance from the police department that they are still working the case? I'm still not really clear on what sort of police statement would make any difference.

 

[Dr. Know?]

It appears to be in Evansdale's hand? It's a small town and my personal perp lives there! Well, one of about 5 or more...

 

[otto]

See my post re POLITICS. :banghead:

Maybe Evansdale PD NEED their toes stepped on?

I love what you're doing, good on you, if the whole town did it maybe someone would wake up that people are very worried and increasingly unhappy with LE silence.

Also, if they have a Council meeting, you are perfectly entitled to attend, to request to speak, then stand up and address all the councillors and the gallery, and ask this question of the mayor directly (I used to work for the City, I know how they play).

This will cause all sorts of kerfuffle as Councillors usually have a "day job" and just want to have their say and ask questions themselves, not provide any sort of educated answers.

Reporters routinely attend these things but you could take the precaution of calling one and informing him to ensure he is at that particular council meeting.

Again, GOOD FOR YOU! These girls apparently need a hero. If I was there I'd go with you, I'm starting a fledging business as a legal advocate and I thoroughly enjoy puncturing the egos and bs of those "in charge".

Why do you think that the Evansdale Police Department needs to have "their toes stepped on?" Why do you think that everyone is unhappy with the police investigation?

Regarding City Council, what do you think the councillors could do? It's not in their job descriptions to tell trained police officers how to do their jobs.

It seems to me that it would be completely ineffective to go to the wrong department to make a request.