Found Deceased IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #37

Welcome to Websleuths!
Click to learn how to make a missing person's thread

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves
Status
Not open for further replies.
Were they ever able to determine a cause of death?

And Id LOVE to know what evidence they had that excluded Klunder as a suspect

Thank you for coming aboard this case.
As verified law enforcement, you have lighted up this thread and that gives us hope.

When LE came out and excluded Klunder as a suspect in this case, we were no longer able to discuss him on this thread. Another thread was set up for him in the Serial Killers forum and most of the info we gathered on Klunder was moved to that thread.

One of the things we uncovered was a case from Carrollton TX in 1988 where two teenage girls were taken. This case is still open and these girls have never been found. There were pictures of a young guy back then that looked similar to Klunder.

Since you have shown an interest in Klunder, it might be intriguing for you to jump on that thread also but we still want you to stay with this case. Here is a link to his thread. The discussion of the Carrollton case begins on post #50.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ent-Sexual-Offender-Murderer-and-Suspected-SK
 
The only reason I wouldnt pursue the Klunder angle is because LE seems SO convinced he wasnt involved... But to be honest if that guy popped up on my suspect list , hes under a microscope till theres no avenue left to pursue in that case .

AS for having someone help cover his crimes, I would say unlikely, that leaves a witness, and to be able to have another do it unknowingly would be a stretch .

Klunder was a excellent suspect, and a rare one at that

Not sure if you and others are aware RichKelly, but there was a thread started that is dedicated to the discussion of Michael Klunder.
Due to the many indicators, imo M.J. Klunder, had means, motive, and opportunity. MJK had honed his elusive skills and evasive techniques for decades. Imo, MJK was responsible for Lyric Cook-Morrissey and Elizabeth Collins' abductions and murders..

IA - KLUNDER, Michael J: Violent Sexual Offender, Murderer, and Suspected SK.
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ent-Sexual-Offender-Murderer-and-Suspected-SK
 
LOL, fool's minds.. watcher9. Sorry for stepping on your post..
There seems to be an endless number of heinous abductions/murder cold cases in the US, but when children or elderly victims are involved, it grabs you by the heart strings, preventing you from moving on. L & L's abduction/murders is one of those cases...

While posting a comment expressing condolences to a family member of a recent GA missing person recovery last weekend on an msm article. I noticed another comment by the sister of a 9 year old boy & his friend that vanished in OH/1964. The case went cold and fifty one years later, her family is still left without answers, or the recovery of her brother and his friend's remains. Anyone with the time, please join us in attempt to find her family some answers... TYIA

OH OH - John Hundley, 9, & James McQueary, 9, Fairfax, 15 Oct 1964
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ey-9-amp-James-McQueary-9-Fairfax-15-Oct-1964
 
LOL, no we're not fools.
We are just thinking along the same lines, that's all!
Looking forward to reading about your "new" old case.
 
What you are looking for is a creature of opportunity:

-Most likely unknown to the victims
-Lives with parents, or alone, however may live within an arrangement
-Most likely single , though could be married or living with someone
-Social "marginal" most likely described as "weird"
-History of behavioral disorders
-He most likely was in the area where the girls were abducted for a legitimate reason (Lives/works etc..)
-If employed most likely in unskilled labor position, high likelihood of being unemployed at time of abduction
-Did not set out intending to abduct children, but opportunity presented itself
-Motive was most likely sexual
-Experienced some kind of triggering event prior to the abduction (Financial, Legal, Sexual, Work, Psychological etc..)
-Victims usually transported greater then .5 Mi from the abduction site (much further in this case)
-Will most likely have a criminal history including attempted or even successful abductions
-Criminal history will usually include crimes of a sexual nature most likely against children
-Victims were most likely killed within 1 , but probably 3 hours of the abduction
-Victim acquired through use of Con or ruse, possibly force , murder will often reflect similar MO in other attempts (earlier or later)
-Dump site familiar to offender (Area of comfort may live near this site as well)
-Victims often killed where they are found or within 200 yards of where they are found , barring a 3rd crime scene .
-May have returned to recovery site
-Most common cause of death is strangulation , blunt force trauma , or stabbing

Post offensive behavior

Would have an unusual interest in the case, will often alter appearance, or "Shed" items on their person or in their possession at the time of the crime (Ex clothing, vehicle etc..). If they kept items they may alter their appearance (Paint etc..)

-May increase use of alcohol , drugs or even tobacco post offense
-May have returned to the body dump site usually before the body is discovered , and to a lesser extend after
-May have left the area
-Possibly confided in someone
-More than likely followed the case in the media



HIGH likelyhood to re-offend (as a note Child abduction murderers tend to have a higher pre-disposition to becoming Serial offenders than those who are killers of adults)

Two questions for you regarding this information:

1. What age group would be the highest probability of this particular crime?

2. What are the odds that this person hasn't/would only do a crime like this one time? Is it common for killers like this to only do a crime like this and then have a large span of years before doing it again?
* There haven't been any other cases to date of children being abducted/murdered here in the state that I am aware of so I wonder how long before we can worry this will happen again? :(
 
Two questions for you regarding this information:

1. What age group would be the highest probability of this particular crime?

2. What are the odds that this person hasn't/would only do a crime like this one time? Is it common for killers like this to only do a crime like this and then have a large span of years before doing it again?
* There haven't been any other cases to date of children being abducted/murdered here in the state that I am aware of so I wonder how long before we can worry this will happen again? :(

Age group of the Offender or Victim ?, The mean age of the offenders in these type of cases is approx 27-36 years old , the age of the victims in this case represent a little over 21% of the victim makeup. The highest group being teenage females between the ages of 13 and 17 years old, make up almost half of the victims of child abduction murders according to a study done by the state of Washington (2006)

I can't really give odds, so many things can factor into it , depends on when the"stars" align for the offender again, if he's in a bad way(which they almost always are ) and comes across a victim, if the opportunities right , then it could happen tomorrow , but if let's say someone suspected him, he may keep quiet for as long as he can, or for the rest of his life ....I will say that now he has done it, it certainly puts him in the realm of the predator , he knows he can get away with it .

My guess is that he will most likely reoffend , these types can lay low for years, they are experienced in hiding their deviant urges already, however if the situational criteria are met that led him to killing these children in the 1st place re-occurs then he will be a time bomb and NOW even more capable

That being said with each successful attempt so exponentially does the need for that criteria to manifest in order for these types to re-offend drop, IE it takes less and less

Risk quotient speaks VOLUMES
I can say that i feel this isn't his 1st abduction attempt , taking 2 kids in broad daylight right next to a highway is about as high risk to the offender as you can get barring those who have taken kids from malls etc..

The victims lifestyles were extremely low risk, elevated by nothing more than them being alone .

The offender decided that taking 2 kids in broad daylight, right next to a major thoroughfare , wasn't that big a risk, you are dealing with someone EXPERIENCED , fixated on kids , that is either at wits end or mentally ill, and I don't believe we're dealing with the mentally ill .

Also he may have committed further crimes already , just another area, they will often flee an area, which is an investigative consideration (Sudden unexplained moves)
 
Not sure if you and others are aware RichKelly, but there was a thread started that is dedicated to the discussion of Michael Klunder.
Due to the many indicators, imo M.J. Klunder, had means, motive, and opportunity. MJK had honed his elusive skills and evasive techniques for decades. Imo, MJK was responsible for Lyric Cook-Morrissey and Elizabeth Collins' abductions and murders..

IA - KLUNDER, Michael J: Violent Sexual Offender, Murderer, and Suspected SK.
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ent-Sexual-Offender-Murderer-and-Suspected-SK

Ive seen the thread, I think I actually replied on it once ... but then again the years of playing football are taking its toll , and I could be wrong .

Klunder if he wasn't already, probably had the highest probability to become a serial offender.

I cant say for sure if he was , we don't have evidence , (I don't believe he was) and from what we know of him his last killing was his 1st, but not for one minute would I be surprised if he had.
 
Age group of the Offender or Victim ?, The mean age of the offenders in these type of cases is approx 27-36 years old , the age of the victims in this case represent a little over 21% of the victim makeup. The highest group being teenage females between the ages of 13 and 17 years old, make up almost half of the victims of child abduction murders according to a study done by the state of Washington (2006)

I can't really give odds, so many things can factor into it , depends on when the"stars" align for the offender again, if he's in a bad way(which they almost always are ) and comes across a victim, if the opportunities right , then it could happen tomorrow , but if let's say someone suspected him, he may keep quiet for as long as he can, or for the rest of his life ....I will say that now he has done it, it certainly puts him in the realm of the predator , he knows he can get away with it .

My guess is that he will most likely reoffend , these types can lay low for years, they are experienced in hiding their deviant urges already, however if the situational criteria are met that led him to killing these children in the 1st place re-occurs then he will be a time bomb and NOW even more capable

That being said with each successful attempt so exponentially does the need for that criteria to manifest in order for these types to re-offend drop, IE it takes less and less

Risk quotient speaks VOLUMES
I can say that i feel this isn't his 1st abduction attempt , taking 2 kids in broad daylight right next to a highway is about as high risk to the offender as you can get barring those who have taken kids from malls etc..

The victims lifestyles were extremely low risk, elevated by nothing more than them being alone .

The offender decided that taking 2 kids in broad daylight, right next to a major thoroughfare , wasn't that big a risk, you are dealing with someone EXPERIENCED , fixated on kids , that is either at wits end or mentally ill, and I don't believe we're dealing with the mentally ill .

Also he may have committed further crimes already , just another area, they will often flee an area, which is an investigative consideration (Sudden unexplained moves)

Thank you for your insight! I was, indeed, curious about the predicted age of the offender. We had to somewhat assume this person was old enough to drive, so that left out the strong likelihood of a really young perp.

Not that it's a huge factor in the big scheme of things, but I do want to clarify the info about the highway being so close and the boldness of the abduction.

It's really not that close to the bike path at all - I know in the pics it looks like it, but it's further than it looks. And also, the main reason I bring this up is that the area they were taken from was VERY secluded...described as creepy/scary in that area. It's a blind curve on the bike path with thick/overgrown trees and vines that (at the time) completely engulfed the fence for quite a stretch.

This person was taking their chances in the sense that someone COULD come along, but if they were watching the girls at the drainage gate they'd be able to see if anyone had headed towards the back side of the lake and know approx how long they'd have before someone would be there.

They've removed all of the overgrowth along the fence line - but even driving past a few weeks ago, I still couldn't see that area at the drainage gate from the interstate. No one on the highway would ever have seen this happen...you're just not at an angle when driving by to see.
 
Thank you for your insight! I was, indeed, curious about the predicted age of the offender. We had to somewhat assume this person was old enough to drive, so that left out the strong likelihood of a really young perp.

Not that it's a huge factor in the big scheme of things, but I do want to clarify the info about the highway being so close and the boldness of the abduction.

It's really not that close to the bike path at all - I know in the pics it looks like it, but it's further than it looks. And also, the main reason I bring this up is that the area they were taken from was VERY secluded...described as creepy/scary in that area. It's a blind curve on the bike path with thick/overgrown trees and vines that (at the time) completely engulfed the fence for quite a stretch.

This person was taking their chances in the sense that someone COULD come along, but if they were watching the girls at the drainage gate they'd be able to see if anyone had headed towards the back side of the lake and know approx how long they'd have before someone would be there.

They've removed all of the overgrowth along the fence line - but even driving past a few weeks ago, I still couldn't see that area at the drainage gate from the interstate. No one on the highway would ever have seen this happen...you're just not at an angle when driving by to see.

Very welcome

Remember the location of their bikes doesn't necessarily indicate where they were abducted , in about 80% of all child abductions (let alone homicides where the number is even higher) a vehicle was used, with con or ruse being the method of acquisition.

Most of these types won't even get out of their vehicle or if they do they don't move too far away from it , because its too much exposure , but that doesnt man they didnt

That's why I teach kids (so should you) NEVER , EVER GO NEAR AN UNFAMILIAR VEHICLE, FOR ANY REASON WHATSOEVER, AND TO AVOID BEING PUT IN ONE AT ALL COSTS, EVEN IF THE OFFENDER HAS A GUN! ....

Just that fact alone could save lives as some 80% of abductions ALONE involved the use of a vehicle and a ruse to get the victim inside .

If hes watching from afar, remember he still has to get the girls out of the immediate area, hes still taking a huge risk in terms of being seen ...same with an unoccupied vehicle sitting near where girls are abducted .. In broad daylight no less, but to this one, getting a child in his car is priority 1. Priority 2. is getting them out of the area

You're right from the maps it looks as if you can see it from the highway , but if there's access to the highway, that may provide yet another reason for why he chose those girls at that location, ..point of egress
 
The only reason I wouldnt pursue the Klunder angle is because LE seems SO convinced he wasnt involved... But to be honest if that guy popped up on my suspect list , hes under a microscope till theres no avenue left to pursue in that case .

AS for having someone help cover his crimes, I would say unlikely, that leaves a witness, and to be able to have another do it unknowingly would be a stretch .

Klunder was a excellent suspect, and a rare one at that

Welcome RichKelly! A great honor to have verified law enforcement on Lyric and Lizzy's thread, thank you!

I think one reason a lot of us (well maybe just me) have a problem believing Klunder was completely cleared is because the person (Smock) delivering that information. If you followed the case you know he was relieved of his duty because of putting his fellow LE officers' lives in danger (allegedly?).

You have me thinking along the lines now that the girls did indeed go to a house close to the lake or even a house en route to Meyers Lake and then the perpetrator dumped the bikes at the gate en route to Seven Bridges. I do believe, though, Aunt Tammy, said the girls' scent was found at Meyers Lake, but only tracked the girls to the water. Again, I have my doubts about Meyers Lake being thoroughly secured as a crime scene as Dan was allowed to drive his four-wheeler through the area looking for the girls and if I recall correctly the crime scene tape was taken down too quickly.

Plus, the time frame between L&L and K&D's abductions was 9 months. I feel by the time L&L's bodies were found in December and no arrests were made that the killer was feeling pretty confident he had gotten away with the murder of two young girls and would have been chomping at the bit to do it again when he happened upon K&D getting off the school bus.

At times, I do feel as if the killer is someone sitting right under the good people of Evansdale's noses.
 
Welcome RichKelly! A great honor to have verified law enforcement on Lyric and Lizzy's thread, thank you!

I think one reason a lot of us (well maybe just me) have a problem believing Klunder was completely cleared is because the person (Smock) delivering that information. If you followed the case you know he was relieved of his duty because of putting his fellow LE officers' lives in danger (allegedly?).

You have me thinking along the lines now that the girls did indeed go to a house close to the lake or even a house en route to Meyers Lake and then the perpetrator dumped the bikes at the gate en route to Seven Bridges. I do believe, though, Aunt Tammy, said the girls' scent was found at Meyers Lake, but only tracked the girls to the water. Again, I have my doubts about Meyers Lake being thoroughly secured as a crime scene as Dan was allowed to drive his four-wheeler through the area looking for the girls and if I recall correctly the crime scene tape was taken down too quickly.

Plus, the time frame between L&L and K&D's abductions was 9 months. I feel by the time L&L's bodies were found in December and no arrests were made that the killer was feeling pretty confident he had gotten away with the murder of two young girls and would have been chomping at the bit to do it again when he happened upon K&D getting off the school bus.

At times, I do feel as if the killer is someone sitting right under the good people of Evansdale's noses.

Thanks , former LE actually, but Im with you , a friend of mine said to me "look at this guy" and showed me the article on Klunder , I said sounds eerily similar to what happened to those 2 young girls at the lake .

I read the background on Klunder , and if there is a blueprint of a potential serial predator , that dude was it .

AS for the Cousins, having seen a few abduction cases in my years, I feel VERY confident saying the I feel this was a lure to a vehicle . He had to get 2 of them out of there quick , Ive spoken with child predators and id say that the large majority of them prefer the use of ruse or con to lure a victim.

The reason, use of force , creates commotion grabbing a victim who starts screaming with another who can run for help is way too risky its easier to ask them to "help him find his puppy" , or see if they want something like candy, something to get them into a vehicle and away from the scene as quickly as possible .

Again I beg any parents here PLEASE PLEASE TEACH YOUR CHILDREN TO NEVER GO NEAR A STRANGE VEHICLE UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, AND TO FIGHT TO THE DEATH TO AVOID BEING FORCEFULLY PUT IN ONE !

Once they are inside a vehicle they are almost out of the reach of help, because they can be miles away in minutes

As for the "urge" to kill again, that depends on what situational factors compelled him the 1st time, it does however lower his inhibitions to murder subsequent times.

In order to get 2 kids in broad daylight , hes practiced his craft, he can approach and talk to kids , and he knows what to say to get 2 girls at the age where they should be aware of stranger danger at least, into a vehicle several hundred yards from their bikes .

How does he develop this? trial and error , and practice , like anything else.

Was this his 1st murder ?, I tend to feel it was

The dump site tends to be as crucial a piece of information than the abduction sites, I personally would be interested in knowing if there was a 3rd site or the girls were killed where they were found ,

But either way because he has victims with him (deceased or alive) he needs to get them to an area he's comfortable with . Some place where he knows he won't be seen, which (especially if they are dead) means they are often familiar with where they leave the victim
 
Thanks , former LE actually, but Im with you , a friend of mine said to me "look at this guy" and showed me the article on Klunder , I said sounds eerily similar to what happened to those 2 young girls at the lake .

I read the background on Klunder , and if there is a blueprint of a potential serial predator , that dude was it .

AS for the Cousins, having seen a few abduction cases in my years, I feel VERY confident saying the I feel this was a lure to a vehicle . He had to get 2 of them out of there quick , Ive spoken with child predators and id say that the large majority of them prefer the use of ruse or con to lure a victim.

The reason, use of force , creates commotion grabbing a victim who starts screaming with another who can run for help is way too risky its easier to ask them to "help him find his puppy" , or see if they want something like candy, something to get them into a vehicle and away from the scene as quickly as possible .

Again I beg any parents here PLEASE PLEASE TEACH YOUR CHILDREN TO NEVER GO NEAR A STRANGE VEHICLE UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, AND TO FIGHT TO THE DEATH TO AVOID BEING FORCEFULLY PUT IN ONE !

Once they are inside a vehicle they are almost out of the reach of help, because they can be miles away in minutes

As for the "urge" to kill again, that depends on what situational factors compelled him the 1st time, it does however lower his inhibitions to murder subsequent times.

In order to get 2 kids in broad daylight , hes practiced his craft, he can approach and talk to kids , and he knows what to say to get 2 girls at the age where they should be aware of stranger danger at least, into a vehicle several hundred yards from their bikes .

How does he develop this? trial and error , and practice , like anything else.

Was this his 1st murder ?, I tend to feel it was

The dump site tends to be as crucial a piece of information than the abduction sites, I personally would be interested in knowing if there was a 3rd site or the girls were killed where they were found ,

But either way because he has victims with him (deceased or alive) he needs to get them to an area he's comfortable with . Some place where he knows he won't be seen, which (especially if they are dead) means they are often familiar with where they leave the victim

Here is a link to where we discussed this - trying to determine if LE was actually implying that the crime was committed in the park or not (this verbiage came from the Evansdale Police Dept page dedicated to the case):


"The offender is familiar with both Meyers Lake/Angels Park in Evansdale and Seven Bridges Wildlife Area in Bremer County. The offender specifically chose Seven Bridges Wildlife Area because of the offender’s familiarity with the area and the fact that it afforded the offender privacy needed to commit the crimes with limited risk of detection by others."

So by them stating it afforded the offender the privacy to commit the crimes - were they implying they believed the crimes were committed there in the park? :thinking:

I don't have the link handy but I do know that one reporter (granted...it was a Nancy Grace reporter I believe) stated that his sources tell him that they believe the park was a "dumping ground" and not the original scene of the crime.
So take that for what it's worth...

I tend to find it being the dumping ground more likely - but that's just my opinion. I think having 2 of them out in the open (granted, it's a remote area) is extremely risky. If this person got them into a car, it would be much more of a controlled situation to get them to a house (pull into a garage and close it) than to take them to a public park and walk them 100 or so yards into the area they were found. I would think that was extremely high risk for exposure.
I am more of the belief that it's more likely this person took them to a house that afternoon - and then dumped their bodies at the park after they were already deceased.



http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...sdale-13-July-2012-36&p=10973044#post10973044
 
Very welcome

Remember the location of their bikes doesn't necessarily indicate where they were abducted , in about 80% of all child abductions (let alone homicides where the number is even higher) a vehicle was used, with con or ruse being the method of acquisition.

Most of these types won't even get out of their vehicle or if they do they don't move too far away from it , because its too much exposure , but that doesnt man they didnt

That's why I teach kids (so should you) NEVER , EVER GO NEAR AN UNFAMILIAR VEHICLE, FOR ANY REASON WHATSOEVER, AND TO AVOID BEING PUT IN ONE AT ALL COSTS, EVEN IF THE OFFENDER HAS A GUN! ....

Just that fact alone could save lives as some 80% of abductions ALONE involved the use of a vehicle and a ruse to get the victim inside .

If hes watching from afar, remember he still has to get the girls out of the immediate area, hes still taking a huge risk in terms of being seen ...same with an unoccupied vehicle sitting near where girls are abducted .. In broad daylight no less, but to this one, getting a child in his car is priority 1. Priority 2. is getting them out of the area

You're right from the maps it looks as if you can see it from the highway , but if there's access to the highway, that may provide yet another reason for why he chose those girls at that location, ..point of egress

There's no exit/entrance ramp near Meyer's Lake, so the perp had to be comfortable driving his vehicle through a suburban milieu with his victims in it (in case that makes any difference to the profile). Which suggests to me that he had local knowledge because he couldn't have picked that spot just from driving by on the interstate.

Something that may have been a factor that day was that the interstate was being repaired and all the traffic had been moved to the north lanes, away from the lake. True, there were construction workers on the south lanes but they would have been busy fixing the road, not standing around looking for abductors. In any case, the bike path was not visible from the interstate.

The spot where the girls' bikes were found was actually a very good spot for an abduction. It was the one spot on the bike path that could not be seen from across the lake due to vines growing on the fence between the lake and the bike path. It was a blind curve and there was a small, maybe 1 acre patch of woods going into the curve. There was a dead end gravel road called Maiden Lane that led into that little patch of woods. Maiden Lane had just a bit of a curve in the middle so that someone standing at the entrance would not be able to see a vehicle that was parked at the end of Maiden Lane.

So the spot where the girls' bikes were found was as close to ideal as an abductor could find in a little suburb. The sound of the traffic on the interstate tends to mask noise from the far side of the lake, the combination of vines, tall weeds and trees provided lots of cover.

Additionally, I figured out at one point that average usage of the bike path was around 7 parties an hour or a little less than one every 10 minutes. Granted, things like that are never perfectly distributed but I'd say that would be a viable hunting spot for an abductor: enough traffic that there was a good likelihood of finding someone who fit his target prey (especially since it was summer and kids out of school) but not so much traffic that he would run a high risk of being seen by another witness. And, in any case, the witness would have to be physically quite close due to the way the area was vegetated.
 
In order to get 2 kids in broad daylight , hes practiced his craft, he can approach and talk to kids , and he knows what to say to get 2 girls at the age where they should be aware of stranger danger at least, into a vehicle several hundred yards from their bikes .

If he abducted the girls from where their bicycles were found, he could have been parked within 100 feet of that spot (on Maiden Lane) and his vehicle would not have been seen by anyone who wasn't right next to it.

How does he develop this? trial and error , and practice , like anything else.

Was this his 1st murder ?, I tend to feel it was

The dump site tends to be as crucial a piece of information than the abduction sites, I personally would be interested in knowing if there was a 3rd site or the girls were killed where they were found ,

But either way because he has victims with him (deceased or alive) he needs to get them to an area he's comfortable with . Some place where he knows he won't be seen, which (especially if they are dead) means they are often familiar with where they leave the victim

SBM

Both sites scream local knowledge. The most likely abduction site was in the one spot that could not be easily seen from across the lake and the park where the girls were found was not a park like people in many parts of the country think of parks. Seven Bridges Park is just a patch of land with a couple gravel roads through it. It has a pit latrine and no other amenities and there are no park rangers. It does have canoe access via the Wapsipinicon River but 2012 was a drought year and parts of the river had no water that summer. So no risk of someone coming by in a canoe that year.

It probably sees the most use in late fall during deer season (it's not good pheasant habitat).
 
Here is a link to where we discussed this - trying to determine if LE was actually implying that the crime was committed in the park or not (this verbiage came from the Evansdale Police Dept page dedicated to the case):


"The offender is familiar with both Meyers Lake/Angels Park in Evansdale and Seven Bridges Wildlife Area in Bremer County. The offender specifically chose Seven Bridges Wildlife Area because of the offender’s familiarity with the area and the fact that it afforded the offender privacy needed to commit the crimes with limited risk of detection by others."

So by them stating it afforded the offender the privacy to commit the crimes - were they implying they believed the crimes were committed there in the park? :thinking:

I don't have the link handy but I do know that one reporter (granted...it was a Nancy Grace reporter I believe) stated that his sources tell him that they believe the park was a "dumping ground" and not the original scene of the crime.
So take that for what it's worth...

I tend to find it being the dumping ground more likely - but that's just my opinion. I think having 2 of them out in the open (granted, it's a remote area) is extremely risky. If this person got them into a car, it would be much more of a controlled situation to get them to a house (pull into a garage and close it) than to take them to a public park and walk them 100 or so yards into the area they were found. I would think that was extremely high risk for exposure.
I am more of the belief that it's more likely this person took them to a house that afternoon - and then dumped their bodies at the park after they were already deceased.

My feeling is if anything more than an abduction were committed in the park itself there would be alot more evidence to work with.

Attacking not 1 but 2 victims physically in an open area, where one could draw attention, or send a potential witness running for help , seems almost too risky

I feel this individual approached these girls , and used some kind of con to get them to an awaiting vehicle . Now its also possible that this individual used some kind of threat of force (produced a weapon) and forced the girls to walk to a vehicle .

Either way it would have to be quiet , forcing them lets say at gunpoint , could account for the bicycles being found laying on the ground away from the roadside .

He could simply told them "not to make a sound and no one would get hurt"...it depends on how the child would react. But in order to get 2 victims there has to be a means of control at least till they get to a point where the abductor feels safe.


Some kids will turn and run and scream, some will fight , some will simply ball up and comply, I think most fall into this category because theyre taught to repspect all adults, or they fear adults (teach your kids to be assertive to adults) , but the offender cannot take a risk on the 1st 2 possibilities, he needs to get them out of that park.

We can only assume the girls were near where their bikes were found when the offender approached , but having seen my own kids drop their bikes at a playground and go off running , I can't say this is true in this case.

But if it was the bikes are located a good distance from the road . That seems to indicate that this offender had to find a way to move the victims that distance without calling attention to himself . In the event hes discovered, he has to have an out , therefore simply luring a victim is the safest means .

That doesn't mean he didn't , in most cases, if they cant lure a victim they just grab, but then you are taking a hell of alot of risk (Amber Hagerman)

In the majority of cases, the offender is in the area where the abduction occurrs for a legitimate reasons, they usually either live or work there .

The Body recovery site is usually somewhere greater than 0.5 Miles, from the site of the abduction, somewhere rural , and is known to the offender. (cant remember the percentages off hand sorry)

SO your theory that he may have taken them to a house is entirely possible , it assumes alot of risk to bring 2 kids into a home in a possible hot search area however.

If we had bodies that (forgive the graphic description) were dismembered or there was evidence of prolonged torture , or some other form of time consuming personation, then Id be right with you on the house, but I have yet to see that anywhere in the reports

In my experience (as well as a study done in 2006 by the State of Washington on Child abduction murders) they take their victim out of the immediate area , unless for some reason they cant, but they want to get to a "safe" area as quickly as possible .

When they get near the area where they feel they are "safe" they assault and murder the victim(s) , usually in the immediate area (usually less than 200 feet) from where the body or bodies are recovered.

Often in or near the vehicle itself.

They then flee, but very rarely does their post offensive behavior go unnoticed
 
If he abducted the girls from where their bicycles were found, he could have been parked within 100 feet of that spot (on Maiden Lane) and his vehicle would not have been seen by anyone who wasn't right next to it.

That still doesn't negate risk, he still has to get 2 victims out of a public area, but that does confirm in my mind he knows that abduction site well and felt comfortable enough to abduct 2 children in broad daylight.



Both sites scream local knowledge. The most likely abduction site was in the one spot that could not be easily seen from across the lake and the park where the girls were found was not a park like people in many parts of the country think of parks. Seven Bridges Park is just a patch of land with a couple gravel roads through it. It has a pit latrine and no other amenities and there are no park rangers. It does have canoe access via the Wapsipinicon River but 2012 was a drought year and parts of the river had no water that summer. So no risk of someone coming by in a canoe that year.

It probably sees the most use in late fall during deer season (it's not good pheasant habitat).

Absolutely , he's familiar with both , he most likely lives (lived) , or has (had) job nearby, comfortable up in the rural area, may be a hunter or fisherman who either frequents, or has frequented that area in the past.

One thing to look for would be someone in the area that all the sudden moved out of the area with little or no explanation as to why .

Or someone who out of nowhere seemed uber interested in the case, as if they couldn't stop talking about it , or was seen in the area(s) frequently following the crimes
 
Something that may have been a factor that day was that the interstate was being repaired and all the traffic had been moved to the north lanes, away from the lake. True, there were construction workers on the south lanes but they would have been busy fixing the road, not standing around looking for abductors. In any case, the bike path was not visible from the interstate.

First Ive heard of this .....

About half those who abduct and kill children are unemployed at the time of the abduction, HOWEVER the ones that aren't are OVERWHELMINGLY employed in some unskilled labor , or semi skilled labor position usually within the construction industry .

Im wondering if any of those working on the road were questioned?
 
My feeling is if anything more than an abduction were committed in the park itself there would be alot more evidence to work with.

Attacking not 1 but 2 victims physically in an open area, where one could draw attention, or send a potential witness running for help , seems almost too risky

I feel this individual approached these girls , and used some kind of con to get them to an awaiting vehicle . Now its also possible that this individual used some kind of threat of force (produced a weapon) and forced the girls to walk to a vehicle .

Either way it would have to be quiet , forcing them lets say at gunpoint , could account for the bicycles being found laying on the ground away from the roadside .

He could simply told them "not to make a sound and no one would get hurt"...it depends on how the child would react. But in order to get 2 victims there has to be a means of control at least till they get to a point where the abductor feels safe.


Some kids will turn and run and scream, some will fight , some will simply ball up and comply, I think most fall into this category because theyre taught to repspect all adults, or they fear adults (teach your kids to be assertive to adults) , but the offender cannot take a risk on the 1st 2 possibilities, he needs to get them out of that park.

We can only assume the girls were near where their bikes were found when the offender approached , but having seen my own kids drop their bikes at a playground and go off running , I can't say this is true in this case.

But if it was the bikes are located a good distance from the road . That seems to indicate that this offender had to find a way to move the victims that distance without calling attention to himself . In the event hes discovered, he has to have an out , therefore simply luring a victim is the safest means .

That doesn't mean he didn't , in most cases, if they cant lure a victim they just grab, but then you are taking a hell of alot of risk (Amber Hagerman)

In the majority of cases, the offender is in the area where the abduction occurrs for a legitimate reasons, they usually either live or work there .

The Body recovery site is usually somewhere greater than 0.5 Miles, from the site of the abduction, somewhere rural , and is known to the offender. (cant remember the percentages off hand sorry)

SO your theory that he may have taken them to a house is entirely possible , it assumes alot of risk to bring 2 kids into a home in a possible hot search area however.

If we had bodies that (forgive the graphic description) were dismembered or there was evidence of prolonged torture , or some other form of time consuming personation, then Id be right with you on the house, but I have yet to see that anywhere in the reports

In my experience (as well as a study done in 2006 by the State of Washington on Child abduction murders) they take their victim out of the immediate area , unless for some reason they cant, but they want to get to a "safe" area as quickly as possible .

When they get near the area where they feel they are "safe" they assault and murder the victim(s) , usually in the immediate area (usually less than 200 feet) from where the body or bodies are recovered.

Often in or near the vehicle itself.

They then flee, but very rarely does their post offensive behavior go unnoticed

My thinking with the house was that the perp didn't necessarily live IN Evansdale, but maybe worked there (or even in Waterloo).
If the perp lived closer to the Seven Bridges area then it would make sense that he would bring them back closer to home. The entire area surrounding Seven Bridges is rural - farmland mostly (shocker, I know...it's Iowa ;)) - so if this person lived out closer to Seven Bridges it is entirely possible there would be no risk whatsoever taking them to their own home.

IF this person lives in the Seven Bridges area the highest risk of the entire abduction/murder was getting them into the vehicle and out of Evansdale without attracting attention. Once they were out of the Evansdale city limits they were likely home free. Farms aren't close together and even if those girls were screaming/fighting at the top of their lungs OUTSIDE it's likely no one would hear.
 
First Ive heard of this .....

About half those who abduct and kill children are unemployed at the time of the abduction, HOWEVER the ones that aren't are OVERWHELMINGLY employed in some unskilled labor , or semi skilled labor position usually within the construction industry .

Im wondering if any of those working on the road were questioned?

Just to mention that the Vehicle of Interest is an older model white SUV. White is usually the common choice of construction vehicles, utility vehicles, perhaps ranch hands, etc. The owner of a white van caught on security cameras at a local store was quickly ID'd, questioned and released.

Of note, Klunder had a new red pickup at the time he hung himself.

Also just wondering if the vehicle in question could have been bought at an LE auction and was actually an older model LE vehicle IF the perp used the guise of being a police officer. Plus, if the perp used the line "Elizabeth your mother is sick and you girls need to come with me to the hospital" I think the girls would have not hesitated to leave with the perp.
 
First Ive heard of this .....

About half those who abduct and kill children are unemployed at the time of the abduction, HOWEVER the ones that aren't are OVERWHELMINGLY employed in some unskilled labor , or semi skilled labor position usually within the construction industry .

Im wondering if any of those working on the road were questioned?
There was some speculation that workers from the highway project were staying at Deerwood park. I don't recall if campers there were questioned.

Sent from my SCH-R970 using Tapatalk
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
107
Guests online
234
Total visitors
341

Forum statistics

Threads
605,844
Messages
18,193,503
Members
233,597
Latest member
Slafrance74
Back
Top