Found Deceased IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #37

[Wondergirl]

A murder victim is victimized once.

A loved one, or even just someone who cares, can relive the crime and be victimized a thousand times.

It is dangerous water indeed.

 

[Kell1]

Sometimes we deal with so much death we forget to live...

"I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but blinding!”.. "The Dark Knight"

These cases change us , sometimes for the better, perhaps were more situationally aware, maybe were more tuned into things around us, but it also has a way to numb us, and jade us in many cases .

Though hes met with mixed emotions here, John Douglas wrote about this type of thing in his book "Mind Hunter" - In one instance his wife had cut her hand badly, and instead of being the caring husband he was pointing out how the blood made different patterns when she moved her hand a certain way .

He had become numb

Just remember to enjoy what you have ...hopefully they won't, but these cases will be here when you come back

 

[Grainne Dhu]

In order to approach his victims he would almost certainly get out of his vehicle, most wont if they feel they can lure a victim into their vehicle.

SBM

I meant that in order to find the place where the bikes were found (even if the girls weren't abducted there, I can think of no innocent reason for someone to place two bicycles they found there), he would have had to have walked at least halfway around Meyer's Lake. That one spot was not visible in summer from any of the closest places where a vehicle could be taken without comment (the bike path is wide enough for a car but driving a car on it would really, really attract attention). He had to have found it on foot.

I think where I'm going with this is that it seems to me that this means the guy is not averse to exercise. Of course, that also goes with having a low level job or one in construction.

It seems to me that he may have put some effort into scouting for locations, which would mean he did at least some planning ahead of time. Maybe he rationalised it to himself as a way to stoke his fantasy life but I think it means that whatever triggered him, he already had at least one place picked out to hunt for potential victims.

In the MAJORITY of these cases the offenders are overwhelmingly White males

SBM

Something that really leans in favour of this being a white male is the fact that the Waterloo/Cedar Falls metroplex is 90% white; blacks comprise about 7% of the minority residents and Hispanic/Latinos less than 2%. Iowa (speaking as a minority myself) is darn near lily white and people of colour do tend to stand out here. Whoever did this was able to blend in well.

He may have moved, therefore sudden moves by area residents should be looked at.

SBM

Do you have any idea of how many perpetrators move and then go back to their former community as a hunting ground?

When I think about how I would do something like this, that's the first thing that pops into my mind: don't hunt where I live. So move first and then go back to commit the crime. It sounds, though, from what you are saying is that most of them don't plan that far in advance.

 

[Kell1]

SBM

I meant that in order to find the place where the bikes were found (even if the girls weren't abducted there, I can think of no innocent reason for someone to place two bicycles they found there), he would have had to have walked at least halfway around Meyer's Lake. That one spot was not visible in summer from any of the closest places where a vehicle could be taken without comment (the bike path is wide enough for a car but driving a car on it would really, really attract attention). He had to have found it on foot.

I think where I'm going with this is that it seems to me that this means the guy is not averse to exercise. Of course, that also goes with having a low level job or one in construction.

It seems to me that he may have put some effort into scouting for locations, which would mean he did at least some planning ahead of time. Maybe he rationalised it to himself as a way to stoke his fantasy life but I think it means that whatever triggered him, he already had at least one place picked out to hunt for potential victims.

No need to scout if hes familiar with the area already , which is what I (and apparently the FBI) feel having just read their profile this am . If history tells us anything this wasn't a guy who set out that day to commit a crime, this was someone who the stars aligned for while he was there, and he took action.

Something that really leans in favour of this being a white male is the fact that the Waterloo/Cedar Falls metroplex is 90% white; blacks comprise about 7% of the minority residents and Hispanic/Latinos less than 2%. Iowa (speaking as a minority myself) is darn near lily white and people of colour do tend to stand out here. Whoever did this was able to blend in well.

The demographic make up of the area isn't as significant as the correlative data we already know Child abduction homicides
-White males make up the majority of offender demographic in these cases
-White females make up the majority of the victim demographic in these cases

Do you have any idea of how many perpetrators move and then go back to their former community as a hunting ground?

No Ive never seen or heard of a case where people relocate back to an area , only for brief periods (visit etc..) if they have

When I think about how I would do something like this, that's the first thing that pops into my mind: don't hunt where I live. So move first and then go back to commit the crime. It sounds, though, from what you are saying is that most of them don't plan that far in advance.

The data in these cases however would prove otherwise , its rare for it to be that thought out prior , most are just what it sounds ... opportunity grabs.

Youre not really dealing with the Criminal Mastermind with these guys...

 

[threecrazykids]

RichKelly -

I'm curious as to how much of this case you've researched (just for discussion purposes).

I'm wondering because you seem confident about this being random...what leads you to believe this? I know that LE has stated that Dan and Misty aren't suspects in the case - but there are plenty on board who believe that there is definitely a tie to the drug world with this case.

Do you factor in the circumstances that Dan had agreed to a plea deal on a host of felony drug charges (reducing his sentence to likely under 10 years) and then backed out on that deal exactly 1 day before they were abducted?
He had apparently agreed to roll on several people (and this was known to the family) but eventually stated his reason for backing out on the deal was (his words) "I just wasn't ready to go to jail." The next day his daughter is abducted.

I am not necessarily of the belief that Dan himself would be responsible for killing his own daughter and niece...but there are some STRONG feelings from a lot of members here that this is directly tied to this drug world Dan and Misty were deeply involved in. Both are now serving time on meth charges and Dan may never see the outside of prison again with the amount of time he was eventually sentenced to.

I'm just wondering if your research in the case has taken you back that far in the discussions and if because LE has profiled this suspect you feel that they are truly looking for a successful child abductor/murderer still at large.

 

[Kell1]

RichKelly -

I'm curious as to how much of this case you've researched (just for discussion purposes).

I'm wondering because you seem confident about this being random...what leads you to believe this? I know that LE has stated that Dan and Misty aren't suspects in the case - but there are plenty on board who believe that there is definitely a tie to the drug world with this case.

Do you factor in the circumstances that Dan had agreed to a plea deal on a host of felony drug charges (reducing his sentence to likely under 10 years) and then backed out on that deal exactly 1 day before they were abducted?
He had apparently agreed to roll on several people (and this was known to the family) but eventually stated his reason for backing out on the deal was (his words) "I just wasn't ready to go to jail." The next day his daughter is abducted.

I am not necessarily of the belief that Dan himself would be responsible for killing his own daughter and niece...but there are some STRONG feelings from a lot of members here that this is directly tied to this drug world Dan and Misty were deeply involved in. Both are now serving time on meth charges and Dan may never see the outside of prison again with the amount of time he was eventually sentenced to.

I'm just wondering if your research in the case has taken you back that far in the discussions and if because LE has profiled this suspect you feel that they are truly looking for a successful child abductor/murderer still at large.

No, I base everything I write on experience, studies done on the subjects performed by federal law enforcement agencies such as the FBI , University studies , and the data gained from those studies.

It may sound rude, (trust me Its not intentional) but you can't listen to every theory on someone comes up with on EVERY case, if you did you would be chasing every half cocked story someone can come up with .

LE would have taken any criminal history of the children's parents into consideration, and apparently they don't feel it factors into their disappearance.

Nor do I

 

[Wondergirl]

SBM

I meant that in order to find the place where the bikes were found (even if the girls weren't abducted there, I can think of no innocent reason for someone to place two bicycles they found there), he would have had to have walked at least halfway around Meyer's Lake. That one spot was not visible in summer from any of the closest places where a vehicle could be taken without comment (the bike path is wide enough for a car but driving a car on it would really, really attract attention). He had to have found it on foot.

I think where I'm going with this is that it seems to me that this means the guy is not averse to exercise. Of course, that also goes with having a low level job or one in construction.

It seems to me that he may have put some effort into scouting for locations, which would mean he did at least some planning ahead of time. Maybe he rationalised it to himself as a way to stoke his fantasy life but I think it means that whatever triggered him, he already had at least one place picked out to hunt for potential victims.



SBM

Something that really leans in favour of this being a white male is the fact that the Waterloo/Cedar Falls metroplex is 90% white; blacks comprise about 7% of the minority residents and Hispanic/Latinos less than 2%. Iowa (speaking as a minority myself) is darn near lily white and people of colour do tend to stand out here. Whoever did this was able to blend in well.



SBM

Do you have any idea of how many perpetrators move and then go back to their former community as a hunting ground?

When I think about how I would do something like this, that's the first thing that pops into my mind: don't hunt where I live. So move first and then go back to commit the crime. It sounds, though, from what you are saying is that most of them don't plan that far in advance.

I wonder if any of the highway construction workers were from or living near the recovery location?

 

[Wondergirl]

No need to scout if hes familiar with the area already , which is what I (and apparently the FBI) feel having just read their profile this am . If history tells us anything this wasn't a guy who set out that day to commit a crime, this was someone who the stars aligned for while he was there, and he took action.



The demographic make up of the area isn't as significant as the correlative data we already know Child abduction homicides
-White males make up the majority of offender demographic in these cases
-White females make up the majority of the victim demographic in these cases





No Ive never seen or heard of a case where people relocate back to an area , only for brief periods (visit etc..) if they have



The data in these cases however would prove otherwise , its rare for it to be that thought out prior , most are just what it sounds ... opportunity grabs.

Youre not really dealing with the Criminal Mastermind with these guys...

Back to the basics.

Lowest common denominator.

 

[carbuff]

<BBM for Focus>
Great advice RichKelly. I've found that is much easier to enter the abyss, than it is to exit it.. Based on life experiences, we all have different tolerance levels when confronting or dwelling on the dark subject of evil.. There must be darkness present for the light to shine through.
(snipped)

This is exactly why I've been gone for a while. Sometimes it all gets to be too much.

 

[Bootsctr]

There was some speculation that workers from the highway project were staying at Deerwood park. I don't recall if campers there were questioned.

Sent from my SCH-R970 using Tapatalk

:bump: Just bringing this forward. I believe there was conversation about campers being questioned at local parks - just not sure if it was highway workers that might have been staying there or tourists or just families that camp for a fun quick getaway.

 

[threecrazykids]

No, I base everything I write on experience, studies done on the subjects performed by federal law enforcement agencies such as the FBI , University studies , and the data gained from those studies.

It may sound rude, (trust me Its not intentional) but you can't listen to every theory on someone comes up with on EVERY case, if you did you would be chasing every half cocked story someone can come up with .

LE would have taken any criminal history of the children's parents into consideration, and apparently they don't feel it factors into their disappearance.

Nor do I

Ok good...so, since LE has stated they've ruled out Klunder (yet, for whatever reason he continually comes back up), and they've stated that Dan and Misty aren't considered suspects, you would say it's safe to say that any consideration of those 3 would be wasted efforts?

I get that Klunder had all the traits, but LE took several months to come out and state that they were CONFIDENT that he wasn't connected. They stated they'd researched where he was, etc. and could safely rule out his connection. They haven't stated any details about Dan and Misty, but did state they were not considered suspects.

I just feel like the same conversations keep coming back around about Klunder and Dan and Misty's drug connection. IMO, if LE cleared Klunder that was good enough for me - but others feel LE missed the mark on that.

I think this is why we keep coming back to a stalemate on this thread because LE has essentially told us this was indeed a random perp, yet we aren't allowed to discuss anyone who hasn't been named in MSM - therefore the hamster wheel just keeps spinning on the same people over and over.

 

[dotr]

Noting this just captured child offender, and the great distances he is apparently willing to travel.imo.

http://www.citynews.ca/2015/11/06/registered-american-sex-offender-arrested-in-toronto-hotel/
"An American fugitive has been arrested in a Toronto hotel on Thursday, according to Toronto Police.

Police said that Glen Anderson Wheeler, 54, is a registered sex offender in Louisiana for crimes against children. He also has convictions in four other states and is wanted for failing to register in Virginia."

 

[dotr]

Ok good...so, since LE has stated they've ruled out Klunder (yet, for whatever reason he continually comes back up), and they've stated that Dan and Misty aren't considered suspects, you would say it's safe to say that any consideration of those 3 would be wasted efforts?

I get that Klunder had all the traits, but LE took several months to come out and state that they were CONFIDENT that he wasn't connected. They stated they'd researched where he was, etc. and could safely rule out his connection. They haven't stated any details about Dan and Misty, but did state they were not considered suspects.

I just feel like the same conversations keep coming back around about Klunder and Dan and Misty's drug connection. IMO, if LE cleared Klunder that was good enough for me - but others feel LE missed the mark on that.

I think this is why we keep coming back to a stalemate on this thread because LE has essentially told us this was indeed a random perp, yet we aren't allowed to discuss anyone who hasn't been named in MSM - therefore the hamster wheel just keeps spinning on the same people over and over.

Thinking that anyone who might have been suspect at one time, are no longer poi, possibly because DNA was found and it simply did not match anybody. Maybe that is why they may think it is some random perp. imo.

 

[Kell1]

Ok good...so, since LE has stated they've ruled out Klunder (yet, for whatever reason he continually comes back up), and they've stated that Dan and Misty aren't considered suspects, you would say it's safe to say that any consideration of those 3 would be wasted efforts?

I get that Klunder had all the traits, but LE took several months to come out and state that they were CONFIDENT that he wasn't connected. They stated they'd researched where he was, etc. and could safely rule out his connection. They haven't stated any details about Dan and Misty, but did state they were not considered suspects.

I just feel like the same conversations keep coming back around about Klunder and Dan and Misty's drug connection. IMO, if LE cleared Klunder that was good enough for me - but others feel LE missed the mark on that.

I think this is why we keep coming back to a stalemate on this thread because LE has essentially told us this was indeed a random perp, yet we aren't allowed to discuss anyone who hasn't been named in MSM - therefore the hamster wheel just keeps spinning on the same people over and over.

You never completely "eliminate" anyone, because 9 times out of 10 as an investigator you have already interviewed the one responsible even if only briefly.

More than likely they have evidence to support their theory of a stranger abduction, which is bolstered by the FBI's contribution (profile etc) ..

In EVERY case you'll get a million theories, some will have merit , some will be out there like Pluto. Some will swear its the butler, some swear it's the Zodiac (again). What you have to do is follow evidence

The thing to remember is that all people can go on is whats released, and in some cases, wrong info is deliberately released, or more often withheld .

Those with no investigative experience, can only base things on what they are familiar with , given such info, so theories will abound.

However LE isnt bringing in the Feds, to create a profile of an offender , only to release it to the public, with a chance that this offender just may kill again, IF they feel it had something to do the parents of one of the victims.

 

[dotr]

Wondering if children and perhaps young adults too, are being warned to be extra cautious in the Evansdale area ?
If this was a first time murderer, would he now be so terrified of getting caught, or perhaps even feeling guilty - or has he had a huge confidence boost and is now waiting for the next big opportunity to do it again?
Would perp look for new hunting grounds?
Has the area where the girls bodies were located, been searched for other bodies?
If perp went x deep into the woods, if he had other victims for example, in a different wood setting, is the perp likely to replicate the same distance into the woods? ino.

 

[Kell1]

Wondering if children and perhaps young adults too, are being warned to be extra cautious in the Evansdale area ?
If this was a first time murderer, would he now be so terrified of getting caught, or perhaps even feeling guilty - or has he had a huge confidence boost and is now waiting for the next big opportunity to do it again?
Would perp look for new hunting grounds?
Has the area where the girls bodies were located, been searched for other bodies?
If perp went x deep into the woods, if he had other victims for example, in a different wood setting, is the perp likely to replicate the same distance into the woods? ino.

My feeling is that he didn't feel good about the murders, he (if hes still alive) probably dwells on it still. He may have re-visited sites, like the park, or the area they were found, or even their graves, to re-live it , or in some cases, they even go to ask for forgiveness.

Will he do it again?.... I don't know, if the factors in his life that were present before re-occur than I can't see why he couldn't .

Having done so puts him in "elite' group if you will, one that has a high incidence of recidivism, and one that has a high incidence of becoming a serial predator.

I can't say for certain, but the longer he goes without being caught , the higher the likelihood he will re-offend

IF experience tells us anything the longer they are successfully active, the less care they take in the actual disposal of the victim(s) -IE they get sloppy

 

[Wondergirl]

:bump: Just bringing this forward. I believe there was conversation about campers being questioned at local parks - just not sure if it was highway workers that might have been staying there or tourists or just families that camp for a fun quick getaway.

Do any locals know the names of the construction companies that worked on that highway project?

 

[Wondergirl]

You never completely "eliminate" anyone, because 9 times out of 10 as an investigator you have already interviewed the one responsible even if only briefly.

More than likely they have evidence to support their theory of a stranger abduction, which is bolstered by the FBI's contribution (profile etc) ..

In EVERY case you'll get a million theories, some will have merit , some will be out there like Pluto. Some will swear its the butler, some swear it's the Zodiac (again). What you have to do is follow evidence

The thing to remember is that all people can go on is whats released, and in some cases, wrong info is deliberately released, or more often withheld .

Those with no investigative experience, can only base things on what they are familiar with , given such info, so theories will abound.

However LE isnt bringing in the Feds, to create a profile of an offender , only to release it to the public, with a chance that this offender just may kill again, IF they feel it had something to do the parents of one of the victims.

So true.

To wait for info or treat info released by LE as gospel is a mistake.

Smoke and mirrors and throw the noodles at the wall to see if anything sticks.

Unless there is an arrest, and a trial, there isn't going to be a big aha moment or answers to the myriad of frustrating questions we all have - and even if there is, we will never really know everything.

Thinking of the families tonight.

 

[Kell1]

So true.

To wait for info or treat info released by LE as gospel is a mistake.

Actually its always better to wait, the BIGGEST mistake anyone can make is to make assumptions based upon what they THINK they know .

You're always better off listening to those with experience, who are working on a case.

 

[watcher9]

Wondering if children and perhaps young adults too, are being warned to be extra cautious in the Evansdale area ?
If this was a first time murderer, would he now be so terrified of getting caught, or perhaps even feeling guilty - or has he had a huge confidence boost and is now waiting for the next big opportunity to do it again?
Would perp look for new hunting grounds?
Has the area where the girls bodies were located, been searched for other bodies?
If perp went x deep into the woods, if he had other victims for example, in a different wood setting, is the perp likely to replicate the same distance into the woods? ino.

When I looked at the maps and the videos showing Seven Bridges, I was struck by the area where the girls were found. It was so close but seemed so isolated away from where the picnic tables and trashcans were located - where I assume everyone partied. The road seemed to make the outer perimeter of the whole park but did not encompass the one area they were in, almost like it wasn't part of the park. No wonder no one stumbled upon them earlier. I wonder if that area was used mainly as a place to relieve oneself?

I believe the investigators covered the whole area while searching for clues.