IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #9

[SapphireSteel]

Some monster(s) could easily cart away two children inside an ice cream truck.

Really?

So where did he park the truck? Those things are heavy, cumbersome and quite brightly coloured...it wouldn't have been able to actually go on the trail.

So say he is parked somewhere just waiting for kids...people are going to see him. Kids are going to see him. They are going to want ice creams. Witnesses everywhere.

So our girls see him, get an ice cream, or wish too (they had no money), he quickly what...leans over the counter and snatches up a 145lb girl?

Or he comes out of the truck, grabs one and....wait....the other ones' either screaming her nut off, running, watching mutely...so he grabs her too. Ok now what about the bikes?

And the other kids wanting ice creams?

Does he slam his doors and tear away? Or tie the girls up cool as a cucumber and drive slowly away? what about his customers? One minute they're queued for ice cream, the next he's closing for business....quite a few witnesses there IMO.

And there's still the problem of the bikes....he wheels the bikes, awkwardly, to the bike trail, leaving the girls still parked in the ice cream truck with the customers all around?

:dunno:

Nup. Can't see it.

By the way the above applies to any single, random perp as well. No one is going to be fluffing around moving/staging bikes in a random abduction. Nope, no way in hell. He's outta there.

:moo:

 

[fabvab]

I was looking at the camping guy's picture, trying to figure out why he looks like he was squatting down low when he took it. It looks to me as if he is sitting just inside the doorway of a big pantry, maybe on a step of some kind? Why would a grown man do that?
It reminds me of a door off of a kitchen which leads to a cellar or basement. Anyone else have an idea?

I'll go hunt the link to the pic. BRB


images.craigslist.org/5Ic5O45...1ee7b01002.jpg

I clicked on link...but the pic is gone. I am trying to catch up. This is all so weird about craigslist...moo

 

[katydid23]

Generally speaking, two victims means more than one perp.

A random abduction would normally be for sexual motives. A perp requires one child, not two. Attempting to abduct two is clumsy and unnecessary for any rock spider. If child one is not enough, he can go out again later for more, but the sheer logistics of one person dealing with two distressed children (one of whom was adult sized) AND their bikes just doesn't make sense.

I know everyone's all excited about the RSO's and their funky junk on CL, but these guys don't even have a pot to p*ss in, let alone vehicles and planning abilities IMO.

The two children indicate more than one perp, moreover, the speed of the abduction indicates planning, and motives other than sexual.

:moo:

Could it indicate child trafficking?

 

[Sere-nity]

People in ads put in a current news story so others will know that it isn't a bot (think spam or fake) created ad

 

[GrainneDhu]

Before the disappearances, one of the girls was late coming home and LE was called.
Does anyone think it's possible that the child was late because she met 'someone'.....say down the street, at the lake where ever
And this someone tested her that evening to see if she'd intentionally stay out beyond curfew?

How likely is it the child would ask her cousin to ride with her real quick to met someone the day the girls vanished?

If she did, then I'm sure LE knows about it by now. She was with her cousin KB, who is around the same age (may be 11 years old). I can't imagine a kid withholding information like that from LE at a time like this.

 

[duchessofdork]

Dude, so I'm looking at JM's pictures, and ended up going through his Disney pics because according to the camera timer, he was there the same week we were.

There are a lot of pictures of little girls that aren't with his party. Knowing that MY kid was there that week? Oh, dude, I'm going to hurl.

 

[SapphireSteel]

It isn't that easy though, because of the fence. Look at the attached birds-eye view of the "trap" area. You can actually see the fences on both sides clearly. The bikes were found in the middle of the screen. The fence that is on the lake side of the trail goes way down to the West. It has already been determined that nobody could have parked a car on the highway (construction, down to one lane) to abduct them, so the hidden car would have had to be in the woods. Look how far they'd have to go around that fence to get back to the car. I don't see how that could happen in 8 minutes and not have TG see them.

One word - accomplices.

There has been quite a bit of planning in this abduction, by someone who thinks he's smart...but like most perps, is not.

:banghead:

 

[Jules71]

The 8 minute time slot not only works, it is actually almost perfect.

If they were biking at a reasonable speed it is quite easy to reach the park by 12.20 with time left over.

TG never said exactly 12.20, it was approximately 12.20. I believe this occured because he spoke to his daughter on his cell at 12.27 and estimated from here. He could easily have been a couple of minutes out either way.

So...12.11 on cctv..12.20 or 12.22...the later would give 11 minutes, but locals believe the FBI are working with 8 minutes.

8 minutes to get from the cctv to the lake and gone.

Perfect timing, assuming someone was expecting them to arrive at the park, and had hidden themselves in the "trap" spoken of by DM, intercepted them, into a car, gone.

IT ONLY WORKS IF IT'S NOT RANDOM...if it is all planned, even down to the bike ride to the park, then it fits like a glove.

Daniel Morecombe down here in Aus was literally gone without trace in just 2 minutes, at a bus stop on a busy highway.

This is a good post! I agree - the 8 minutes only works if it was planned! Now we need to figure out --by who?

I am still not comfortable with the timeline totally though. Because cctv time stamped at 12:11 but was 8 minutes slow so you need to add 8 minutes on making it 12:19. Add 8 minutes on to ride to the spot and that makes it 12:27. At 12:27 TG had already ridden by and was on the call with his daughter.

ETA: If the cctv time stamp was correct - 12:11 - then 8 minutes to ride to the spot would get them there at 12:19 just when TG says he was riding by!

 

[CHERIE.T]

According to that FB page, the ice cream truck showed up at the vigil last night.

:what:
Anyone remember Scott Peterson attended
Lacis vigil?

Just a thought.

 

[katydid23]

Really?

So where did he park the truck? Those things are heavy, cumbersome and quite brightly coloured...it wouldn't have been able to actually go on the trail.

So say he is parked somewhere just waiting for kids...people are going to see him. Kids are going to see him. They are going to want ice creams. Witnesses everywhere.

So our girls see him, get an ice cream, or wish too (they had no money), he quickly what...leans over the counter and snatches up a 145lb girl?

Or he comes out of the truck, grabs one and....wait....the other ones' either screaming her nut off, running, watching mutely...so he grabs her too. Ok now what about the bikes?

And the other kids wanting ice creams?

Does he slam his doors and tear away? Or tie the girls up cool as a cucumber and drive slowly away? what about his customers? One minute they're queued for ice cream, the next he's closing for business....quite a few witnesses there IMO.

And there's still the problem of the bikes....he wheels the bikes, awkwardly, to the bike trail, leaving the girls still parked in the ice cream truck with the customers all around?

:dunno:

Nup. Can't see it.

By the way the above applies to any single, random perp as well. No one is going to be fluffing around moving/staging bikes in a random abduction. Nope, no way in hell. He's outta there.

:moo:

When our local ice cream truck was selling the kids 'contraband' undercover, he was pulling the back of the truck up against the curb at the end of our cul de sac, and my son and his friends would peek in the open back door and pick out stink bombs and little fire crackers from underneath the counter.

The boys were almost inside the back door of the truck, which is what freaked me out and clued me in.

So although unlikely, it is possible that a slick perp could lure kids by being the ice cream man. Possible scenario:

Hey girls, aren't you getting an ice cream today?

We dont have any money left.

No problem. Come back at 12:30 and I will be sitting over in that area there, eating lunch. I wlll have a lot of leftover ice cream and you can have as many as you want. Just don't say anything or everyone else will want one too.

When the girls come back they see him with a cooler sitting in the woods by the trail. They walk over and he pulls a knife to Lizzies throat and they both comply and he walks them to wherever he wants to take them.

Maybe it is parked by he campground because he lives there in a tent? maybe he is friends with one of our CL creepers.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Could it indicate child trafficking?

It depends how you define "trafficking" but strictly speaking, absolutely. Yes.

I sincerely doubt the traffickers are strangers to the children, however.

If it was just two random child traffickers, they would probably still just go for one child. One's just easier, in every respect. Two carries unnecessary risks, and just a whole lot more headaches.

There is a motive here we don't know about. This was planned.

:moo:

 

[CHERIE.T]

i googled pretty deep :floorlaugh: and I couldn't find nothing indicating that?!?! I thought it meant something too, I'll keep digging ;-)

Go to the corner. :floorlaugh:

 

[Pensfan]

Really?

So where did he park the truck? Those things are heavy, cumbersome and quite brightly coloured...it wouldn't have been able to actually go on the trail.

So say he is parked somewhere just waiting for kids...people are going to see him. Kids are going to see him. They are going to want ice creams. Witnesses everywhere.

So our girls see him, get an ice cream, or wish too (they had no money), he quickly what...leans over the counter and snatches up a 145lb girl?

Or he comes out of the truck, grabs one and....wait....the other ones' either screaming her nut off, running, watching mutely...so he grabs her too. Ok now what about the bikes?

And the other kids wanting ice creams?

Does he slam his doors and tear away? Or tie the girls up cool as a cucumber and drive slowly away? what about his customers? One minute they're queued for ice cream, the next he's closing for business....quite a few witnesses there IMO.

And there's still the problem of the bikes....he wheels the bikes, awkwardly, to the bike trail, leaving the girls still parked in the ice cream truck with the customers all around?

:dunno:

Nup. Can't see it.

By the way the above applies to any single, random perp as well. No one is going to be fluffing around moving/staging bikes in a random abduction. Nope, no way in hell. He's outta there.

:moo:

Check out desolate Arbutus Avenue. There are very few houses there and the houses that exist do not face the street. No houses=no other kids chasing the ice cream truck. It takes very little effort to use an inexpensive stun gun. According to the FB page (Leave no stone), this ice cream truck was handing out free ice cream on occasions.

 

[JaimeInLA]

Really?

So where did he park the truck? Those things are heavy, cumbersome and quite brightly coloured...it wouldn't have been able to actually go on the trail.

So say he is parked somewhere just waiting for kids...people are going to see him. Kids are going to see him. They are going to want ice creams. Witnesses everywhere.

So our girls see him, get an ice cream, or wish too (they had no money), he quickly what...leans over the counter and snatches up a 145lb girl?

Or he comes out of the truck, grabs one and....wait....the other ones' either screaming her nut off, running, watching mutely...so he grabs her too. Ok now what about the bikes?

And the other kids wanting ice creams?

Does he slam his doors and tear away? Or tie the girls up cool as a cucumber and drive slowly away? what about his customers? One minute they're queued for ice cream, the next he's closing for business....quite a few witnesses there IMO.

And there's still the problem of the bikes....he wheels the bikes, awkwardly, to the bike trail, leaving the girls still parked in the ice cream truck with the customers all around?

:dunno:

Nup. Can't see it.

By the way the above applies to any single, random perp as well. No one is going to be fluffing around moving/staging bikes in a random abduction. Nope, no way in hell. He's outta there.

:moo:

Completely agree with everything you said, except for one point. (Did he play the tinkly music while he drove away too? Tee hee) The only part I disagree with is the part I bolded. I can see two reasons why people would do this:

1) If someone who lives near the lake lured the girls into his house, then had to get rid of the bikes so they weren't AT HIS HOUSE. The natural place to ditch them would be on the bike trail, in the one place OlliPop said is completely isolated and impossible to see from the rest of the lake/park.

2) If someone they knew was like, "hey girls! Hop on into my truck! Let's go do something fun!" The girls wouldn't want to just drop and leave their bikes. So the perp had to say, "It's cool! Just toss them in!" But then he couldn't keep them in his truck. So after he drops off the girls somewhere, or cuffs them inside the vehicle, or chloroforms them -- he quickly dumps the bikes, again, in the ONE spot Olli said is hidden from view.

 

[Confusion]

By the way the above applies to any single, random perp as well. No one is going to be fluffing around moving/staging bikes in a random abduction. Nope, no way in hell. He's outta there.

:moo:

BBM

The only reason I can think of for anyone to stage the bikes anywhere is that the girls were taken somewhere that would be obvious if the bikes were left where they were. I really think the girls rode them to the lake, but there are so many different directions things could have gone once they were there, it's hard to know where to start.

There seem to be gaping holes in every scenario we've come up with so far, but I think it'll all fall together perfectly once someone hits on the right one.

 

[Dr. Know?]

Did anyone get a picture of the icecream truck or driver at the vigil? We had one a few years ago going around our neighborhood that was selling drugs. He drove around late at night btw. Past kids bedtimes so that was a clue & in mainly an older age group neighborhood too. Needless to say, he was busted.

I've been reading on and off all day (sick) & saw some very good sleuthing & tips to turn in. NVgirl, glad you turned that in right away & Pensfan too. Reading Craig's list casual encounters or whatever is just ewww, though. Why do guys post their? nevermind...

 

[SapphireSteel]

If we are working with the 8 minute time frame, and I am, there is simply NO TIME for this level of staging by a random, and NO MOTIVE EITHER.

For whoever said, an ice cream truck was at the vigil...hell I'm looking into a hotdog van, and if there's a crowd, I'll be there. It's how these guys make their money :doh: You won't be in business very long if your customers keep disappearing, either! Food vans have to be licenced and inspected, and trust me, local governments do police these things. There will be local govt staff around that lake all day, doing various chores, unnoticed. They check things like food vans.

Translates to unnecessary risk. Child abductors just aren't into risk, and usually not very good at planning. Just get any old car and grab a kid outside a school, it's much easier and any idiot can do it...look at Jaycee.

I know how it happened, I've got a damn good idea who did it, but one thing I'm stuck on is WHY, but that's always the hard part. Normal thinking people really don't want to think there's that level of cold and calculating in the world, but there is.

 

[Pensfan]

Really?

So where did he park the truck? Those things are heavy, cumbersome and quite brightly coloured...it wouldn't have been able to actually go on the trail.

So say he is parked somewhere just waiting for kids...people are going to see him. Kids are going to see him. They are going to want ice creams. Witnesses everywhere.

So our girls see him, get an ice cream, or wish too (they had no money), he quickly what...leans over the counter and snatches up a 145lb girl?

Or he comes out of the truck, grabs one and....wait....the other ones' either screaming her nut off, running, watching mutely...so he grabs her too. Ok now what about the bikes?

And the other kids wanting ice creams?

Does he slam his doors and tear away? Or tie the girls up cool as a cucumber and drive slowly away? what about his customers? One minute they're queued for ice cream, the next he's closing for business....quite a few witnesses there IMO.

And there's still the problem of the bikes....he wheels the bikes, awkwardly, to the bike trail, leaving the girls still parked in the ice cream truck with the customers all around?

:dunno:

Nup. Can't see it.

By the way the above applies to any single, random perp as well. No one is going to be fluffing around moving/staging bikes in a random abduction. Nope, no way in hell. He's outta there.

:moo:

The random abductor who grabbed Ben Ownby and Shawn Hornbeck moved their bikes. He put them into his truck and then loaded their bikes.

 

[JaimeInLA]

I cant remember where i read a couple pages back abt the puppies, that is weird to me cause i worked as a production manager at a newspAper and we would get in our emails people buying ads, obits etc..and there was this one that was a total scam abt puting puppies for sale and we had talk to our owner and they said that it is a scam and they would want whoever new this puppy code know what they wanted, makes ya wonder what puppies would mean??? Weird huh?? Was it really kids for sale?

Ok, this is really weird. and totally off topic. I know a woman who used "puppy" as code for "baby" in emails when discussing the adoption of her daughter's baby. She was traveling a lot around the time of the due date, so all electronic communication was to refer to the baby as "the puppy is now available for pick up." It was important to use code because the woman is somewhat famous, and did not want people to discover that she was was hiding a pregnant teen and pretending the baby was her own.

I had NO idea that OTHER people referred to babies as puppies!

 

[SapphireSteel]

BBM

The only reason I can think of for anyone to stage the bikes anywhere is that the girls were taken somewhere that would be obvious if the bikes were left where they were. I really think the girls rode them to the lake, but there are so many different directions things could have gone once they were there, it's hard to know where to start.

There seem to be gaping holes in every scenario we've come up with so far, but I think it'll all fall together perfectly once someone hits on the right one.

I've got the right one. Or a couple of versions of the right one.

To me, it's obvious. Blindingly so. :maddening: