ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 18

[Sillybilly]

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[hopewell]

that has been my feeling because the knife was the killer's "power" so s/he would not want to discard it IMO

I get that but they spent a lot of time looking for that murder weapon. What specific evidence did they discover on scene that lead them to believe that the killer coveted it? Simply not finding the weapon isn't going to elicit a statement like that.

My opinion.

 

[debbiediablo]

Wondering where you saw the sixth roommate was actually in the house and survived? I understand the most recent press release by MPD indicated this person is on the lease but was not present at the house?

He/she wasn't home and there is confusion as to whether if/when the sixth person lived there. Someone posted awhile back who among all the survivors would you like to question, and this person would be my first choice, my first question being why are you on the lease but not in the house? Did you leave due to fear? Stalking? Infighting?

 

[TIGER0822]

‘Following the press conference, Moscow police said in a statement on Facebook that "the surviving roommates summoned friends to the residence" because they thought one of the victims had passed out and wasn't waking up. Several people spoke to the 911 dispatcher, police wrote.

No sane person could mix up the following scenarios.
-Being unconscious
-Dead for several hours / not an obvious cause.
-And stabbed and dead/ extensive bleeding.

A surviving roommate sees a dead stabbed body / bodies) and calls friends to the residence???

 

[Seattle1]

"We remain consistent in our belief that this was a targeted attack, but investigators have not concluded if the target was the residence or if it was the occupants."

Can someone explain to me what they mean by the residence was the target?

When talking to reporter Brian Entin a couple of days ago, the prosecutor provided that "targeted" was probably not the best word here because the term is open to interpretation (by LE vs media vs public).

IMO, I think LE wanted to convey to the public that they believed the homicide was an isolated event and they did not expect the perp was in hiding and ready to strike again.

An example of the residence the target, given the crime scene residence is a rental property marketed to students living off campus, perhaps the perp was a meth-crazed individual that frequented the house under prior tenants, and entered believing he might find cash or product, and instead found tenants living in harmony with nothing available to him but leftover take out food.

Personally, I'm more inclined to believe the perp was acting out against one or more individuals in the residence as opposed to the example above.

And we may never know the why!

I'm reminded of the 2019 quadruple murder in Maden, ND (a town similar to Moscow) by a local chiropractor that stabbed the property management owner and 3 of his employees more than 100 times early one morning after they arrived for work. To this date, no motive for the massacre was ever uncovered by authorities and/or the public! More recently, the convicted killer committed suicide in prison in August 2022 -- forever taking his secret to his grave.

ND - Several bodies found at Mandan business, 1 April 2019 *Arrest* #2

Police: 'Several' bodies found at North Dakota business MANDAN, N.D. -- Police responding to a medical call at a North Dakota property-management business on Monday found "several" bodies, authorities said. The Mandan Police Department issued a three-sentence news release confirming that...

www.websleuths.com

 

[Friday Fan]

That’s scary to think it could have been the house that was targeted because who knows what drew the perp’s attention to it? Does he like houses that are that specific color? Does he like houses with the numbers 1 or 2 or both of them? Does he like houses that have 2 sliding doors vs. just one? I know all those sound ridiculous and not at all likely, but if it were the house that was the target, who knows what exactly drew this crazy person to it. What will he do when he finds another house to target like this one?

If you look at houses in the area, this one has a vantage point, easy viewing and likely easier entry than other homes.

 

[WildWest]

Will someone enlighten me on where Kaylee was living before her visit back to the home please?

 

[al66pine]

Lahta County Coroner Cathy Mabbut.
From post by @Seattle1 today.
"Perhaps an elected coroner without MD credentials would respond to a reporter but no practicing professional would ever affirm red staining on a foundation wall was blood without first confirming by scientific testing. IMO, similar to the mayor and prosecutor, I think the coroner was probably asked to stop speaking to the media."
--------------------------------------------------------

Thanks @Seattle1 for your post, & agreeing w your line of thought.
Her comments in vid I saw ~two weeks ago seemed, well, unusual (unprofessional?) coming from mouth of a County Coroner who is practicing attorney (?) to make to media. Sorry, no link. JM2Cents.

------------------------------------------------------------
From Lahta County, ID. gov website, w my bolding.
"Cathy Mabbutt was first elected coroner in November 2006. She graduated as registered nurse (RN) from Sacred Heart School of Nursing and worked at Gritman Medical Center Emergency Department for many years. She graduated with B.S. in political science from University of Idaho and then completed law degree from the University of Idaho in 2001."

And sure enough, law firm website w one of 15+ testimonials names Cathy Mabbutt and Nick (husband? father? brother? uncle? IDK). Bare bones website w two tabs, "Testimonials" & "Contacts" w Moscow address & phone.

Mabbutt Law Offices - Google Search

yellowpages listing shows: "General Practice Attorneys, Attorneys, Criminal Law Attorneys"​

Mabbutt Law Office in Moscow , ID

Share your own tips, photos and more- tell us what you think of this business!

www.yellowpages.com

​

 

[JaimeInLA]

Will someone enlighten me on where Kaylee was living before her visit back to the home please?

With her parents.

 

[OrangeRhyme]

sorry I wasn't sure myself either.

best interpretation I have is....

Steve was told that when deciding whether one particular victim was more of a target than the rest of the victims, LE usually spot some signs of a different ' behaviour footprint' * by the perp.

( later on in the interview, because Steve is tired/ is grieving he says he was referring to victim not perp but I just think it was Steve mis-speaking)

* at the crime scene the perp may treat one victim differently to another, even though manner of death & weapon is the same. eg. they might return to the body again, or pose the body, treat the clothing or personal possessions differently, use knife in different ways compared to the rest of victims ( location of stabbings, how deep, the force used)

there'll be more examples but IDK off-hand what they are

edited to add:
however just because say, Kaylee or A.N. Other had more of his 'attention' during the offence I'm not convinced that necessarily means she was targeted in advance, unless LE already have other evidence ( eg this was her stalker)
You'd need to check with a psychology person on WS, but someone as sick as this might just treat one victim differently once he's inside the property. What if something is triggered in him during the attack, the way she reacts or his past issues with particulate women she might remind him of? IDK and I doubt they can be sure without other evidence

I think he was referring to specifically information gleaned from the phone. I'm not certain but that's how I interpreted it.

His interview was very hard to interpret but I blame that on the interviewer, she didn't ask him to clarify anything really.

 

[fviofrgn]

Thank you, that makes sense.

I guess I don't understand what they mean by RESIDENCE. To me, the residence and the occupants are the same. So saying the residence was the target means the occupants were the target as well. Maybe I'm overthinking. I am known to do that, ha

I’m looking at it as…

“The residence was targeted” = somewhat random attack where the perp didn’t know who exactly was in the house. Maybe they knew it was young girls but not any of their identities.

“The victims were targeted” = Someone hunted one or more of the victims for and attacked them for a reason.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

‘Following the press conference, Moscow police said in a statement on Facebook that "the surviving roommates summoned friends to the residence" because they thought one of the victims had passed out and wasn't waking up. Several people spoke to the 911 dispatcher, police wrote.

No sane person could mix up the following scenarios.
-Being unconscious
-Dead for several hours / not an obvious cause.
-And stabbed and dead/ extensive bleeding.

A surviving roommate sees a dead stabbed body / bodies) and calls friends to the residence???

You should read the story of a similar scenario in Buffalo in the 1990s.

University of Idaho slayings rekindle grisly memories of similar 1992 attack in Buffalo

A college student who found her roommate brutalized in their rented home near campus said the University of Idaho slayings have rekindled memories of the savage attack.

www.foxnews.com

One of the most fascinating things about the human brain is its ability to shield and protect us from truly horrific things.

 

[WildWest]

With her parents.

Thank You

 

[10ofRods]

There is no DSM criteria for disordered thinking. Disordered thinking isn't a diagnosis.

I also don't believe a person with legitimate mental illness, the symptom of which is disordered thinking, could carry out this crime. A crime like this requires organizational skills and executive function that individuals with severe mental illness often lack when they decompensate.

I am sorry, but I think you are wrong here. Disordered thinking was my way of stating in laymen's terms that the person is not normal. ALL DSM diagnoses involved disordered thinking. Period.

Delusions, lapses in reality functioning, compulsions, inability to have second order processing into one's own behavior - all of these are "disordered thinking." I can't possibly list all the versions of it (my list of synonyms for use in SM is now at about 200 terms).

Mental illnesses have no relationship to legitimacy/the law. However, as a mental health researcher who has 40 years of experience (my area is field diagnostics), I will say that NO ONE who does what this killer did is a normal person. Therefore, there are symptoms in DSM that apply. I could list many. However, for the purposes of this discussion (so far), I am only going to mention the ones for which LE/MSM have provided evidence.

Where are you getting the idea that mentally ill people do not have organizational skill and executive function? There are mentally ill surgeons and generals; there are mentally ill presidents and CEO's, there are mentally ill actors and creatives. Many examples (read Kay Jamison; the academic literature on LBJ; Irv Yalom; or a good biography on several historical figures - just go to scholar.google.com and put in "mental illness in history" or some similar).

As to what I'm trying to say about DSM criteria and this particular perp, here are some possible symptoms. all of them are in DSM and all are disordered thinking. Keep in mind that I am speculating merely on the facts as known in this case, and the work of FBI profilers who have spoken about this case (possible symptoms of this perp):

• Suspiciousness and a general fear of others’ intentions.
• Persistent, unusual thoughts or beliefs.
• Difficulty thinking clearly.
• Withdrawing from family or friends.
• A significant decline in self-care.
• • They do not desire or enjoy close relationships, even with family members.
  • They choose solitary jobs and activities.
  • They take pleasure in few activities, including sex.
  • They have no close friends, except first-degree relatives.
  • They have difficulty relating to others.
  • They are indifferent to praise or criticism.
  • They are aloof and show little emotion.
  • They might daydream and/or create vivid fantasies of complex inner lives.
  • Act rashly
  • Be irritable and aggressive
  • Fight or assault other people
  • Break the law and accepted social norms
  • Not care about the safety of others or themselves
  • Not show signs of remorse after hurting someone else
  • Fail to meet money, work, or social duties

The mental processes behind all of these symptoms are, by DSM definition, **not** normal. These are a grab bag of symptoms - but I'm sure that somewhere, LE (particularly FBI) will be interested in trying to build a case from among the suspects by observing symptomology.

Having said that, you can certainly few such things as failing to meet one's work or social duties as indicative of a normal way of thinking - but I simply can't get there, for myself. Some of the symptoms are benign (usually) such as extensive daydreaming - but it's still a mental symptom. Excessive daydreaming, especially when not caring about safety and not feeling remorse - those are mental symptoms that lead to criminality.

ALL of this is due to "disordered thinking." That's what DSM is about (disordered behavior plays some role in diagnostics, but it's mostly about mental states. I could have used many synonyms (atypical cognition; malignant mental states) - but what just happened occurred because of the mental states of one person (I'll be very surprised if it's two).

 

[Friday Fan]

Thank you! I put those same floor plans in one document - to explore how an intruder would move through the house.

Twitter Source

I added the victim's names to the rooms where bodies were found. These look really good!

View attachment 384311
Twitter Source

Entered through the front, but not the slider? MOO...I'm leaning toward the sliding door...MOO Just seems like the path of least resistance... etc... Easier to snoop in the sliding door windows etc....

 

[debbiediablo]

So detectives are aware of a sixth person on the lease. Yet they still only list “two surviving roommates” as being not involved. Probably just an oversight; MOO

And sorry! I have a Murphy dog comment: I still think it’s strange that they say Murphy dog was located on the NIGHT of the incident:

On the night of the incident, officers located a dog at the residence. The dog was
unharmed, turned over to Animal Services, and later released to a responsible party.

Could this mean that the killer let Murphy out and LE really did find him that night but couldn’t get in contact with the number on his collar so they handed him over to animal services?? Although they do say “at the residence” but could that mean outside the residence? That’s one of the few ways it makes sense that he wasn’t barking.

I noticed that too and wrote it off to lack of articulateness that also confused whose phone called 911 and who did the calling.

 

[Normamsmiley]

The potential of the “house” being targeted is very interesting to me. IMO that means there was evidence in the house outside of the act of the murders that wouldn’t have existed if they had gone, for example, into my home…. But wasn’t strong enough evidence to specifically point to one or more individuals.

For example (and just for example, not at all what I think), if they smashed a picture on a dresser with a bunch of girls in their sorority letters, it would seem targeted, but could have been against the girls specifically OR that they targeted the house because all girls where in a sorority.

Would love to know what the evidence is…

 

[Friday Fan]

Agree. Then they should have just said this person was NOT at the residence, instead of “not believed”. They have to know how much power their words have after what they have gone through with statements the past few days.

"believed" is their way of saying, that it's a "99% chance that the person was not there".
They very rarely give 100% for a reason.
There is a 1% chance that the person could have been there.
No alibi or proof is every 100%.

Someone could ask, "Was FridayFan at the residence?"
They would respond: "It is not believed that FridayFan was in the residence"

I don't live anywhere near Idaho
I have not been to Idaho since 1965.

 

[mrsdue]

I own a residential cleaning company, and you would be SHOCKED how disgusting cabinets get in just TWO weeks in between our cleans! Drips, splashes, handprints..whether the family has kids or not. So based on my job, and that this was a college house, I am not at all surprised!

Yes, but photos taken the morning of the murders clearly show it clean. It is possible something spilled by LE.

 

[acutename]

You can be on a lease and not live there or be a roommate.

Could have previously been a roommate.

Could be a new roommate who hasn’t moved in.

Could be a co-signer.

The fact that said did not use the word roommate on their PR probably means it was an individual did not currently live there.

you could acually live with your boyfriend
you could have gone to France this semester
you could be home sick
you could have finished early and NOT come back to visit IMO