ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 21

[Notthisshipsister]

Since the remains were released by LE, he wouldn't need an autopsy report to see obvious differences. (I think it is possible that he also had access to M's remains since their ashes are both together at his house.)

Are you saying that the dad could have actually viewed the bodies (remains) for himself?

 

[layer]

Are you saying that the dad could have actually viewed the bodies (remains) for himself?

Sadly, he seems to be implying it himself.

ETA:
He could have just been told by the person that prepared them for cremation...

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

In the earlier days of the reporting on this crime, I believe I read that the two survivor roommates had returned to the house on King Rd after having been out of town . I could very well be wrong on this because I can't seem to google an article that confirms. Can anyone set me straight on the matter?

I read it, too. idk where so I can't provide the link.

 

[otto]

Given the amount of discussion on here around K and M being killed second, I had always assumed this was a confirmed fact? Do we even know the order of attack in terms of E & A vs M & K?

We have heard that Xana had defensive injuries, and that she was killed with Ethan, same room, second floor. That suggests that Ethan, with no defensive injuries, was killed before she was killed. She had a chance to react and tried to protect herself. We learned today that Kaylee may have had more injuries than Madison.

We know that the victims "bled out". That suggests that 3/4 victims bled out, and Kaylee had a different cause of death - per her father. At the very least, he know that one of the victims on the third had a different cause of death than the other girl, and the victims bled out.

 

[Zella]

She had defensive wounds implying she fought back.

Defensive wounds don't inherently mean someone fought back, though. Instinctively trying to shield yourself also leads to defensive wounds. Her defensive wounds may well have just come from her putting a hand or forearm up in a fruitless attempt to shield herself. I know her dad seems to think she fought back, but that has never been confirmed by law enforcement.

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

Whoever did this was:
*Proficient with a knife
* Bold enough to kill 4 people
*Stealthy
*COLD BLOODED KILLER
* Not likely someone who had issues with victims ...they had their OWN AGENDA
* Not the first time at this nor the last
MOO

100%. I'd add obsessive planner.

 

[WildWest]

Since the remains were released by LE, he wouldn't need an autopsy report to see obvious differences. (I think it is possible that he also had access to M's remains since their ashes are both together at his house.)

I might imagine all the parents were talking together?

 

[KPO]

For all we really know, it could have gone like this. Killer wants to kill K (OR M) and get out. No intention to kill anyone else. Finds the 2 together on 3rd floor where he was positive he would find just one in the bed. Confused, he doesn't immediately know who is who, but has to act. Kills one, then realizes he made a mistake and takes it out "brutally" on the other who may have awoken. Downstairs trying to exit, has confrontation with E, who had heard something. So he had to kill E/X too. So he leaves having killed 4 people when his intention was one. That would be the simplest thing. I think another poster also suggested confusion with the sleeping arrangement on the 3rd floor.

When Chris Watts killed his wife and kids, he told the detectives he was so angry that he could have killed anyone he came across.

i haven't looked at that 3rd floor balcony, would the murderer have made any big snow tracks jumping out?

One, K&M were in Maddie's bed. So if the target was Kaylee and her bed was empty, seems as though they should have anticipated both girls being in Maddie's room.

I don't think there was much snow at the they were murdered. Tracks would have been left anywhere they exited, right? The third floor balcony was outside Kaylee's room and wrapped all around the back of the house to Maddie's back window. Exiting off the balcony wouldn't have been ideal though because of the height but it was possible.

 

[layer]

I might imagine all the parents were talking together?

Maybe not all, but for sure K&M's. Those families are tight.

 

[slanda]

Ok this on my mind. I keep hearing that K was the target because her wounds were worse but I don’t understand why if she was the intended target the offender would go into M’s room? Seems like offender would’ve gone into her room. Perhaps found her in M’s room and still decided to carry out crime.

Other thing that bothers me though is X and M worked together right? If X changed her locks and M had K sleeping with her maybe it’s because X and M were worried about someone specifically from work. Employee or co-worker?

Idk, I know K’s dad is very upset but I’m not convinced K was the target. There is just so many unknown variables.

I mean honestly both K and M kinda look similar and I think it’s entirely possible killer might have been targeting M since it was her room and might have overkilled K my mistake.

Both X and M had someone sleeping with them that night, was it because they were scared? I’d like to know more about people connected to them.

There are so many variables and possibilities it’s impossible to really tell who was the target and why. We don’t even really know if there was a specific target or just a house full of people it represented to the killer.

There are varying reasons why someone could have more vicious wounds, like they fought back for example… But, if one victim’s wounds were aimed at a certain sensitive part of their body, of if they were posed and the others were not, that’s most likely going to be the target victim.

I just replied to a post and discussed how Danny Rollling killed two college females with a Ka-Bar knife while they slept and he definitely had a target victim and it was obvious forensically and to the investigators. He also confessed to the police how and why he did what he did.

It seems the Idaho victim’s house was well lit from the inside to the outside at night, allowing for someone on the outside to maybe see who was doing what and going where before they went to sleep… Maybe the killer watched them go into Maddie’s room from the slope outside behind the house and went in after they went to sleep (Rolling did the same thing his first night in the Gainesville Murders).

Unless it’s completely obvious to investigators that there was a target victim(s), it’s hard to say with out knowing the facts right now.

*As an aside, when I was younger, I always slept with my best friend after going out that night. And Ethan was X’s boyfriend, so that’s not a red flag to me, either.

X’s mom did not know which lock was recently changed (it could have just needed to be fixed)— it could have been an exterior or interior door.

Here’s the Court Docs from the Rolling murders and he also jimmied the sliding glass doors and carried a gun but also used a Ka-Bar knife as his weapon of choice while the first pair of female roommates that he killed were both sleeping in different parts of the house.

ROLLING v. STATE (1997) | FindLaw

Case opinion for FL Supreme Court ROLLING v. STATE. Read the Court's full decision on FindLaw.

caselaw.findlaw.com

 

[layer]

I read it, too. idk where so I can't provide the link.

It was widely reported "out of town" in the early days before it was corrected. The 1:00 am arrival time, however, has remained consistant.

 

[theonewithallthequestions]

Maybe not all, but for sure K&M's. Those families are tight.

SG said he's spoken with Xana's dad, but hasn't spoken with Ethan's family yet.

 

[drmrgrl]

15 minutes from Pullman, WA to Moscow, WA and they have a Jack in the Box.

Could E and X have gone to the Jack In The Box some time that night? They attended the Sigma Chi party 2000-2100? Could something have happened at JITB where perp may have followed them to their residence?

 

[North_Idaho_Nony]

Just a thought related to SG's recent interview on Fox: he directly mentions the University being harmed (implied: its image, its ability to recruit new students and retain current ones). He says:

"... The communication is not the same as the boots on ground. All the officers that are out on the streets, those guys are working their tails off, but there’s a different person doing the communication, and that guy’s sitting with the lawyer, and that guy’s sitting there telling him, “You know, you gotta protect things that are beyond the case, like the town and the community, and the–the college itself.” Those don’t matter as much to me. I mean, I definitely don’t wanna hurt them, but, um, I have an agenda, and I think it’s pretty clear. It’s these two girls, and, uh, that’s what I’m working for, and I’m not gonna let that story fall apart just because they don’t want wanted posters on their next rush of students that come into town." (link to source)

It is interesting to step back a little from the investigation and think more broadly about how LE is handling this case because of the UI -- higher ed is a business, among other things, and this event is extremely harmful for its ability to continue making a profit. It's going to be very, very bad if they do not have a suspect in custody before the spring semester begins, IMO. All this is to say that I think LE is making certain choices in the interest of protecting Moscow's premier institution -- this can explain why they continue to push the idea that this was a "targeted" crime in some way, and their decision to quickly revoke the shelter in place that went out briefly after the victims were discovered.

It's a long shot, but there is some (justified) speculation about the house being targeted for its association with UI's Greek life and community -- in that case, it is as much an attack against the victims and the Greek community in Moscow as it is against the university itself. I'm definitely not suggesting that the best interest of the university trumps justice for the victims and their families (from my perspective or from LE's), but I think this context is absolutely important to understanding the investigation and even the potential motive(s) of the perp. All MOO.

All MOO, but if I had a dollar for every time something really bad happened at the UI or in the Greek system affiliated with the UI & common wisdom was that enrollment would take a huge hit, I would be very wealthy.

And it’s not specific to the UI - really bad things happen at colleges & universities all the time. Yet they continue to exist & even thrive sometimes.

 

[NuttMegg]

Danny Rolling (The Gainesville Slayer), killed two sleeping women roommates on the first night of his Gainesville killing spree.

He he first saw his target female at the local convenience store he was at while living as a vagrant near the campus.

He followed her home and scoped out her house.

He waited for the two collage age girls to fall asleep and jimmied the sliding door lock and was armed with a gun and a KABAR knife.

The following is a direct copy/transcript from the Supreme Court of FL Court Docs regarding the facts of this case, also linked below:

FACTS OF THE CASE

“The record reflects that in the early morning hours of August 24, 1990, Danny Rolling, armed with both an automatic pistol and a Marine Corps K-Bar knife, broke through the rear door of an apartment shared by college students Sonya Larson and Christina Powell.   Upon entering the apartment, Rolling observed Christina Powell asleep on the downstairs couch.   He stood over her briefly, but did not awaken her.

Rolling then crept upstairs where he found Sonya Larson asleep in her bedroom.   After pausing to decide with which young woman he desired to have sexual relations, he attacked Ms. Larson as she lay in her bed, stabbing her first in the upper chest area.   He then placed a double strip of duct tape over her mouth to muffle her cries and continued to stab her as she unsuccessfully attempted to fend off his blows.   During the attack, she was stabbed on her arms and received a slashing blow to her left thigh.   Ms. Larson maintained consciousness for less than a minute and died as a direct result of the stab wounds inflicted by Rolling.

After killing Ms. Larson, Rolling returned to the downstairs of the apartment where Ms. Powell remained asleep.   He pressed a double strip of tape over her mouth and taped her hands behind her back.   Rolling cut off her clothing and undergarments with the K-Bar knife and sexually battered Ms. Powell, threatening her with the knife.   Thereafter, Rolling forced her to lie facedown on the floor near the couch and stabbed her five times in the back, causing her death.   Rolling posed the bodies of the victims and left the apartment.”


He went on a killing spree that weekend and murdered three other people all of whom were awake. He jimmied the sliding glass door in every case and on the second day of his spree actually waited for his lone victim behind her wall cabinet to return home and ambushed her.

He confessed to all of this.

Killing people while other people are sleeping in the same house is not uncommon. There are many examples throughout the last 125+ years on record.

ROLLING v. STATE (1997) | FindLaw

Case opinion for FL Supreme Court ROLLING v. STATE. Read the Court's full decision on FindLaw.

caselaw.findlaw.com

I lived quite near one of those apts but earlier, called it sin city. We always left the sliding doors open. Geez how did we make it through when so many were taken.

 

[drmrgrl]

I have always been open to the idea that there was more than one attacker, one of the main things that argued against it was the implication that there was one weapon used for all the injuries. Mind you, just an implication I got from some of the early statements by the coroner and even the singular use of the word weapon in the MPD Press Briefing.

But I did notice today that on the 20th, they specifically changed their language from "the weapon has not been found" to "no weapon has been located".

Semantics issue perhaps.Nothing significant

 

[Crashman]

Defensive wounds don't inherently mean someone fought back, though. Instinctively trying to shield yourself also leads to defensive wounds. Her defensive wounds may well have just come from her putting a hand or forearm up in a fruitless attempt to shield herself. I know her dad seems to think she fought back, but that has never been confirmed by law enforcement.

You’re right, I’m basing my premise on what Xs father stated about her having bruises and Being a fighter. My point is the home appears to have hardwood floors throughout. If the killer attacked X and E in bed, i would imagine the struggle directly above the room on the first floor would make a heck of a lot of noise. As always, JMO

 

[Ghostwheel]

Sorry I thought a read somewhere that they had been out of town and returned around 1am. Apologies I’m new at commenting.

I believe it might have been out IN town.

From the current Moscow, ID website:

"Detectives believe that on November 12th, the two surviving roommates had also been out in the Moscow community, separately, but returned home by 1 a.m. on November 13th"

 

[otto]

One reason why this might have happened on a Saturday night is because Kaylee was the target and she had moved out - but there she was back in town, showing off her new car, hitting the pubs. She was there for only a few days - then forever living her planned life somewhere else.

That Saturday night was a good choice because everyone was partying, everyone came home around the same time of 1-2 AM. That's probably normal for their Saturday nights. They all went to sleep around the same time. The two single girls on the first floor went straight to bed, Madison and Kaylee ate pasta and made phone calls until 3AM. We don't know about the couple.

 

[Bliss_Perth]

It's possible that the suspect parked on Taylor Ave and walked the stairs and footpath to the house. The circle is the house with the camera - pointed away from the mass murder house. The murders could have happened without the ring camera capturing anything.

The arrow is the footpath to the house and possibly around to the back of the house

View attachment 385063

Possibly because king road is one way in and one way out. A house on Taylor before king rd has a ring camera i was able to spot and you also have the service station on the corner of Taylor with cameras so if i car did go down that way and come out a short time after you would get a great time line from that.