ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 29

[drmrgrl]

Concerning blood spatter/splatter/spray and bloody footprints:
We know at least some and maybe all of the victims were attacked in their beds. We also know it was a fairly cold night, so I think it could be assumed fairly thick blankets were probably on the beds. How much blood splatter/spray might have been “screened” by the blankets? If the assailant is swinging at someone who is lying under a blanket(s), beyond castoff on each backstroke swing, might there be very little other blood traveling through the air toward the assailant? Just something to be considered - I certainly have no expertise in this area!

IMO. He kept the covers on the victims

 

[mickey2942]

They have not released the full information from the autopsies, or timeline of deaths. I wonder if all four of them had ingested any sort of drugs, meaning, drugged on purpose.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I don’t know for sure why LE said that but I’ll give you my theory on why they said that. LE dosen’t know with 100% certainty that the killer and or killers were in that white Hyundai near the murder scene. They do know for sure that the person and or persons in that white hyundai could be innocent witnesses who can provide pivotal information for the case so they don’t want to “scare” that person off.

But again the person and or persons in the white hyundai could very well have been the killer and or Killers.

Either way it’s very eyebrow raising that whoever that was in that white hyundai near the murder scene on the morning of Nov 13 has not come forward so far. This has been national news everyday, all over the internet, all over news stations, all over the newspapers ever since the murders occurred etc So I am sure whoever that was driving the white Hyundai near the murder scene on Nov 13 is aware that LE would like to talk with them.

Or… they’re trying to lure someone? they’ve got a perp in mind who def does have a car of that description and they believe he would have used it but have no evidence so they hope he’ll make contact. However, were that to be the case, I doubt any perp is going to fall for that game. Maybe his wife / partner / kids / co workers / neighbours might make contact if they perceive that person as menacing or think they know anything? Bit convoluted way to go about it.

 

[10ofRods]

View attachment 387038

Some of the murdered University of Idaho students were stabbed in their beds, coroner says

According to police, the coroner said all four victims were likely asleep, some had defensive wounds and each was stabbed multiple times.

www.cbsnews.com

Yes, I know. I keep typing out/quoting the same thing. First, it's "they were all sleeping." Now she says "some" might not be in their beds. SG says his daughter and M were in their beds. That leaves X and E. X has defensive wounds (per coroner) but people want to believe Ethan is the one who got of bed (perhaps due to a possible editing error in an early DM article).

To be fair to the coroner, she seems to be saying that X and E were in their beds in a posture consistent with being asleep when something happened. One or both of them reacted (for sure X did - is she the one who was out of bed too? We don't know). But I do know that if either X or E were standing up when stabbed, the wounds would look different. Coroner should know - odd that she decides they were all sleeping (I took that as physical evidence that they were prone or reclining or close to it, when the first blows came). Not necessarily "actual sleeping" but in a sleep posture.

The earlier media reports, unfortunately, all appear to quote her - she is basically walking it back from there. And that happens. She just gave us a big clue though. Since SG insists that K and M were in one bed, together, and the coroner mentions no defensive wounds on either (that is SG's conjecture from the word "bruises" which doesn't track, for me), then it stands to reason that X (defensive wounds) was not actually asleep as the attack went on, in which case E was not asleep - or already dead or dying.

 

[Kittycat40]

Or… they’re trying to lure someone? they’ve got a perp in mind who def does have a car of that description and they believe he would have used it but have no evidence so they hope he’ll make contact. However, were that to be the case, I doubt any perp is going to fall for that game. Maybe his wife / partner / kids / co workers / neighbours might make contact if they perceive that person as menacing or think they know anything? Bit convoluted way to go about it.

IF now it’s a big “IF” the killer or killers were driving the white Hyundai near the murder scene the morning of Nov 13 than they won’t come forward. But LE is of course hoping whoever that was in that white Hyundai on Nov 13 will come forward. Again LE is hoping!!!!

 

[OckhamsRazor22]

Concerning blood spatter/splatter/spray and bloody footprints:
We know at least some and maybe all of the victims were attacked in their beds. We also know it was a fairly cold night, so I think it could be assumed fairly thick blankets were probably on the beds. How much blood splatter/spray might have been “screened” by the blankets? If the assailant is swinging at someone who is lying under a blanket(s), beyond castoff on each backstroke swing, might there be very little other blood traveling through the air toward the assailant? Just something to be considered - I certainly have no expertise in this area!

Perhaps. Yet, I believe they may have been asleep (two of the victims) when the attack began, but quickly jumped up and began moving. Unless they were otherwise immobilized (which LE denied, stating they were neither tied nor bound). The killer anticipates this and reacts accordingly. I’m sure he wore a dark paper suit. So many hypothesis and so many directions in this case.

 

[OckhamsRazor22]

Yes, I know. I keep typing out/quoting the same thing. First, it's "they were all sleeping." Now she says "some" might not be in their beds. SG says his daughter and M were in their beds. That leaves X and E. X has defensive wounds (per coroner) but people want to believe Ethan is the one who got of bed (perhaps due to a possible editing error in an early DM article).

To be fair to the coroner, she seems to be saying that X and E were in their beds in a posture consistent with being asleep when something happened. One or both of them reacted (for sure X did - is she the one who was out of bed too? We don't know). But I do know that if either X or E were standing up when stabbed, the wounds would look different. Coroner should know - odd that she decides they were all sleeping (I took that as physical evidence that they were prone or reclining or close to it, when the first blows came). Not necessarily "actual sleeping" but in a sleep posture.

The earlier media reports, unfortunately, all appear to quote her - she is basically walking it back from there. And that happens. She just gave us a big clue though. Since SG insists that K and M were in one bed, together, and the coroner mentions no defensive wounds on either (that is SG's conjecture from the word "bruises" which doesn't track, for me), then it stands to reason that X (defensive wounds) was not actually asleep as the attack went on, in which case E was not asleep - or already dead or dying.

Yes, and maybe they ENDED in their beds (as opposed to remaining there the entire attack). It’s not uncommon for victims to retreat back to a bed, sofa, or a chair while in the throes of a mortal state (of which they may or may not even be aware) before expiring. Organs lack nerve endings, therefore no pain is experienced internally. Many stabbing victims who survive never realized they were being stabbed until they saw the blood. They thought they were being punched.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

What baffles me most is that someone could slaughter 4 pepole and not leave any blood trail while leaving……we don’t see any markings by police outside. No indication that they even identified one drop of blood anywhere. Not one site marked for identification. it doesn’t seem possible. Not even outside the sliding door where I am assuming the killer escaped, or the 3rd floor porch if he/she leaped out on the hill to head for Walenta Drive.

How does one do that?

no blood? graphic warning

If it were me set that task and all my victims were fast asleep under their blankets and with cushions an pillows … I’d probably use chloroform on their faces then stab stab stab very hard my whole body weight down knifing through their bedding into their torso, maybe even using a pillow as a baffle of sorts, maybe slice their throats last after their blood pressure has dropped. Maybe there wouldn’t be much blood except on hands / forearms

 

[10ofRods]

I think part of his anger has to do with LE having to rule out each family member from early on in the investigation. I've watched videos of investigators interrogating various individuals and it certainly is uncomfortable to say the very least. If this is the case here, he was no doubt terribly offended which is perfectly understandable and not unusual in any way. In fact, it may be one reason he chose to hire an attorney, but this is only guesswork or speculation on my part. It does explain why he has expressed such vitriol and criticism towards LE. MOO

Sure it does. And it's a terrible initiation into the world of crime and forensics. LE has to rule out family members. SG's own rambling speech patterns (especially in his first interview) are disjointed enough that at one point, I thought that he was specifically saying his own family should be investigated - but in fact, on rewatching, it sounds as if he means his own family should be hired as investigators? Or be allowed to be investigating? Something like that.

It's not unusual for victims' families to go through this. But there is no specific LE response that is designed to guide people in the world of coping with terrible tragedy. When a crime like this occurs, SO many people are affected - and the immediate families have years of struggle ahead of them. Research shows that people vary widely in their responses to such grief, making it hard for them to continue their regular work and relationships.

No shade on Mr. G for expressing his feelings - and LE should be listening. Community police/support teams have been cut back a lot in many places, but he should have a liaison whom he can call on the daily or email on weekends. A cadet might be helpful in that role - but won't have any information which, unfortunately, is what K's parents want the most.

No one is going to get to the next stage of this without someone being arrested, not really.

 

[otto]

True, but again the FBI's definition of 'targeted' specifically says that it has only observed killings like this when they were carefully calculated and meticulously planned. Not the kind of impulse crime that an externalized impulsive rage killer tends to perpetrate when he's been slighted by a specific person. This was an internalized, longstanding, lingering, insatiable bloodlust from the depths of a shallow soul, IMO, and was perpetrated to fulfill a fantasy that most probably had no bearing on the identity of the victims themselves.

Should also say that developmentally it isn't likely that someone in their late teens/early twenties could both conjure up and execute something quite so extravagant, sadistic, and depraved.

My opinion.

People in their early 20s with schizophrenia have committed violent mass murder of peers. That's not to suggest that a schizophrenic is behind these murders, but men in their early 20s are "developmentally" capable of mass murder. I don't think anyone should be ruled out due to age or gender, although the suspect is most likely male. Link

If targeted means planned, then we know that the suspect planned to murder at that house, perhaps with a specific individual in mind. Police have said that either the residence or an individual at the residence was the target.

 

[OckhamsRazor22]

There is a possibility that itwas a duo--one male and one female.
The male to do the wet work, the female accomplice to be the lookout. She could have been the one to have the entry codes.

There is so much more to this, and all the various relationships, than meets the eye. They had three years of interaction to build up resentment, anger, jealousy, envy, and rage.

This is just my opinion, not based on any evidence released by law enforcement.

This was a one man show. In and out in surprising speed. Two people leave twice the evidence and double the chance of being apprehended. No way. One man involved in this event. And it’s NOT his first rodeo. MOO

 

[10ofRods]

Re the white car -

Why don’t LE say we *know* the car was in the area at the time instead of ‘we believe’ it was. It comes off as disingenuous.

I’m a semantics and linguistics pedant and so are the people who word such statements and their words have been carefully crafted.

Well, my explanation for that is that they didn't see the car and can't prove that the car in some Ring video is the exact one they want. I am betting they have fibers from the car within the crime scene.

While it's true that the killer might have tried not to get too much blood on himself and most likely evaded being cut or stabbed himself, he still has fibers - on his shoes, on his clothes. He brought both his clothing fibers and upholstery/carpet fibers with him when he came from somewhere else, is my guess. And they match in the FBI database to an Elantra 2011-2013, white.

 

[10ofRods]

Which window had the almost full palm mark on the glass, in relative to the house layout?

I hadn't heard of that - what's the source for it? The slider is on the second floor, opens onto the kitchen. I know that LE said they think he came in that way - but I hadn't heard there was an almost full palm print.

Anyone? Anyone got that link?

 

[OckhamsRazor22]

I have an out of the box thought..the box thought…was this a hometown killer? So much speculation on Moscow student/resident…am thinking this killer is a hometown resident that was recently spurned.

If it’s a townie and not a gownie, then they reside or frequently stay with someone who resides in one of the infinite cluster of homes with a direct “line of sight” to the house. Otherwise, no. They do not live in Moscow.

 

[blackbeary]

That quote was a "miscommunication". Police have since released the statement that they are unsure whether the residence, or an occupant of the residence, was the target.


"Then, on Wednesday, the Moscow police said that the prosecutor in Idaho’s Latah County erroneously had said this week that “the suspect(s) specifically looked at this residence,” and “that one or more of the occupants were undoubtedly targeted.”

The police statement said the prosecutor’s comments were a “miscommunication,” adding, “Detectives do not currently know if the residence or any occupants were specifically targeted.”

Dec 5

Moscow police say a sixth person on the lease isn't involved in the Idaho student killings | CNN

The Moscow Police Department said on Friday that they don't believe a sixth person listed on the lease at the residence, where four University of Idaho students were killed last month, was involved in their deaths.

www.cnn.com

Why would someone target a house, building, apartment complex, certain address, etc

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Yes, and maybe they ENDED in their beds (as opposed to remaining there the entire attack). It’s not uncommon for victims to retreat back to a bed, sofa, or a chair while in the throes of a mortal state (of which they may or may not even be aware) before expiring. Organs lack nerve endings, therefore no pain is experienced internally. Many stabbing victims who survive never realized they were being stabbed until they saw the blood. They thought they were being punched.

We need to know a lot more.

I’m starting to wonder if this crime scene wasn‘t badly interfered with or staged before LE arrived… maybe a frat thing ? Wanting to deal with this privately their own way? Could that happen?

 

[Strong1]

Has anyone brought the possibility of this being a murder for hire type of scenario? Seems highly unlikely but at this point anything is possible.

 

[OckhamsRazor22]

"We have clarified comments made by Latah County Prosecutor Thompson, who said the suspect(s) specifically looked at this residence, and that one or more of the occupants were undoubtedly targeted. We remain consistent in our belief that this was indeed a targeted attack but have not concluded if the target was the residence or its occupants."
Source - Moscow PD official site

I chose bold font for the word occupants because neither Prosecutor Thompson nor Moscow PD's site uses the word "victims" in their statements about the believed targeted attack. There has been rampant speculation about which of the victims could have been targeted, but less speculation about the survivors. I personally don't have a strong notion about who or what the target(s) of this crime may be, but I tend to believe that because LE has been strong in their messaging from the very beginning about this being a "targeted attack", that LE more than likely has clear evidence that would suggest that, and not just something circumstantial that a perpetrator could leave to disguise their intent.

It's my own personal belief that between the 911 call, the interior details of the crime scene, and the immediate first wave of on-site interviews, that there is a significant amount of key information available to make the "targeted attack" determination. I imagine (because I'm not privy to evidence) when you add in all the tips and media that have come in since then, and subsequent interviews and re-interviews in wider and wider circles that LE (I'm including FBI as LE) probably has a pretty substantial toehold on the serial killer vs some-degree-of-acquaintance determination.

I believe this case likely has a lot of key angles that haven't been made public and MOO I think it might not be until an arrest or trial that we learn much of it. I have faith that in this case justice will be served and I don't have enough info to wager a timeline for that.

I only wish I had your faith. There is no statute on murder.

 

[Trino]

I’m wondering the same. If you look at the layout of the 2nd floor, especially the virtual rendering online, it would be way easier to come in through the 2nd floor slider, put the dog in the empty 2nd floor bedroom, and head upstairs. If K was the target, then maybe the plan was to leave after killing her. Perhaps a barking or whining dog roused E and X on the second floor and that’s what was encountered on the way down. Thus you get the “fought like hell” scenario that the ME allegedly told SG. Surely the killer was scratched or at least had some noticeable marks.

If you start on the 2nd floor with a huge fight, then surely you are awakening the others above.

Also, if we believe K or anyone specifically was targeted, as opposed to being targeted for “type” or what you represent for the killer, then I’m thinking it’s got to be someone local to Moscow or their respective hometowns. And if it’s local then I have to believe he was stalking them that earlier that night, at all the places behforehand. Was he in the white car then? Did he show up for work or class on Monday or Tuesday with scratches of a dubious nature?

We are a month out and if LE hasn’t brought that to the attention of the community then the memory is now waning.

Someone seeing scratches would not be enough. It would take a DNA, hospital, doctor analysis to connect him to the murder.

 

[OckhamsRazor22]

Has anyone brought the possibility of this being a murder for hire type of scenario? Seems highly unlikely but at this point anything is possible.

It would have been much different. Bullets as opposed to a knife. Silencer. In and out as this one was, but using the knife is messy and can lead to much more risk than using a gun. MOO