ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 35

[OrangeRhyme]

It is clear this killer did not want to get caught
The hunt and thrill of the kill, weapon, dead of night
Planning extensive, not random or spur of the moment driven by a hot head

It seems there are levels of planning, and also distance from the crime
Semi Planned and Close to the Crime
C Watts thought he had planned but was arrested two days after he killed his wife and two daughters. He was messy and obvious, but thought he had a chance not to get caught.
The situation was already in C Watts life, he dealt with what he had.

Planned well and Distant to the Crime?
These murders seem sought out, target hunted and found, and planned
Not part of the persons immediate daily life it seems As All the usual suspects have been looked at and found to be out of the picture
Well planned, sought out a type, a location, vulnerability, yet high risk
Personal in that the type of victims hold meaning, choice of knife vs other weapon

The risk could have been higher- strangling is even more personal, and takes longer, more of a chance for other victims to fight back
Gun would have been high risk due to noise, a silencer was not an option- tough to get? Knife has meaning, slower and messier, higher risk of evidence?
Gun leaves bullets, knife leaves marks on bodies? More about meaning?

Only when this perp is in custody will we truly know the extent of the planning, we are nearing 5 weeks out, how well was the plan for escape?

I don’t know, maddening to think through
Praying for relief for the families, friends, community
JMO

There's no evidence Chris Watts planned to murder his wife. It could've just been rage induced during an argument.

I always wonder why Chris Watts didn't just bury the bodies in the desert on his way to the oil rig. If you look on Google maps, there's miles and miles of just open countryside with no houses or anything.
He would've always been prime suspect but enough doubt to avoid a conviction.

I think there's lots of latent psychopaths in the world that don't know they're psychopaths.

To me the Idaho murders look like unplanned, personal, vengeful rage. Possibly alcohol involved also due to it being Saturday night.

I've heard before that the majority of murders, rapes, violent assaults involve alcohol.

 

[Diddian]

Idaho murders: University adding more campus security personnel in spring semester

University of Idaho students Ethan Chapin, 20, Kaylee Goncalves, 21, Xana Kernodle, 20, and Madison Mogen, 21, were stabbed several times and killed Nov. 13.

www.foxnews.com

Photos shown of several people removing boxes of items that were taken by LE from the King Rd house and stored, earlier believed to be items of the victims to be returned to their families.

Also photos of a blue car with Arizona plates being shovelled out from where it was parking by LE in a storage lot.

Images captured by Fox News Digital show people retrieving several boxes from a Moscow facility where the victims’ belongings were being stored after the tragedy in Moscow, Idaho, Dec. 20, 2022. (Derek Shook for Fox News Digital)

Images captured by Fox News Digital show people retrieving several boxes from a Moscow facility where the victims’ belongings were being stored after the tragedy in Moscow, Idaho, Dec. 20, 2022. (Derek Shook for Fox News Digital)

The same group of men could be seen removing snow from a blue Honda sedan bearing Arizona plates and then driving it away from the tow lot. The vehicle was one of the cars that was towed away from the crime scene and moved to the lot weeks earlier.

Images captured by Fox News Digital show people removing snow from a blue Honda sedan bearing Arizona plates and then driving it away from the tow lot on Dec. 20, 2022. The vehicle was one of the cars that was towed away from the crime scene and moved to the lot weeks earlier. (Derek Shook for Fox News Digital)

Checked the weather in Moscow, ID today and current temp is 4 degrees F.

God bless these officers for all they do, no matter the conditions.

 

[Down To Earth]

So don't get blinded by the headlights. I said then about that case and will say now about this one, one of the victims was connected to the evil that occurred in that house. When the arrest is made it will be someone closely connected to one or more of the victims.

I believe it was someone who returned home with E&X and was partying with E&X when K&M returned home and was intended to crash on the couch for the night. Due to some altercation earlier, perhaps with E they waited until they were all asleep. K&M were killed because they saw/talked to him after they returned home and were witnesses. The 1st floor girls were already asleep so therefore were not witnesses so did not need to be killed.

Someone questioned why a friend would be partying with a hunting knife in his possession, but may I point out there are many young people who hunt in Idaho and carry hunting knives on their person. There are also many others who have extensive knife collections. It is entirely possible the perpetrator went home to get one of those knives he collected.

MY OPINION ONLY
JMO

I think this is a very solid theory. If a scenario like this were true, I find it hard to believe the perp would have been partying with E and X and not had his phone with him. And if he had his phone, wouldn't LE have the ping and been able by now to blow holes in whatever alibi they were using? Carrying a knife isn't out of the question, although slightly unlikely just in MOO, going home (or somewhere) to get a knife seems slightly more likely. But unless this perp had planned in advance of meeting up with E and X, I think they would have their phone with them. If there was an altercation (perhaps with E as you suggest) prior to the night of the murders, and the altercation was enough that perp was prompted to murder, it seems unlikely that they'd be invited into the home at any point on the night of the murders.

I think you still have a very sound theory, but there are some particulars I'm having trouble with.

 

[Strong1]

Can social media sleuths be sued?

Idaho murders: Can social media sleuths be sued for wrongful accusations?

Social media users spreading rumors about innocent people whom they believe to be involved in the murders of four Idaho college students could face legal consequences.

www.foxnews.com

 

[PrairieWind]

Yes, this is the type of stuff I've been thinking about. This person or persons has to eat, has to sleep. Are they working a job to provide for this? If so, is it the same job as prior to the murders or is it somewhere new? Are they standing over a garbage can fire on a skid row somewhere or watching the NASDAQ index from the penthouse of a swanky high-rise? Have they hung themselves from the rafters of an abandoned barn in the middle of nowhere or are dropping off their kids at school in the mornings? Is it someone in LE or clergy or a multiple felon? A group of teens or a mentally ill transient?

Another thing that I swirl around is what evidence LE have that this was a targeted attack (of some sort)? The splash this crime has had from the beginning and how quickly FBI were called into the investigation leads me to believe IMO there are some weird details from the initial crime scene that public hasn't been privy to yet.

I seem to recall that LE stated that there was something specific at the scene that led them to say this was targeted. They have pretty much been silent on what that is. Their reachout to the FBI/State for assistance seems to me to be exactly what they should have done. This is a big crime scene, lots of evidence, etc. They needed resources and that is what the state and FBI are for.

 

[Diddian]

SnowSnowSnow in Idaho. Honda w AZ plates, Moved fm Tow Lot

Caption.* Pictures "... show people removing snow from a blue Honda sedan bearing Arizona plates and then driving it away from the tow lot on Dec. 20, 2022. The vehicle was one of the cars that was towed away from the crime scene and moved to the lot weeks earlier."

If these pix were published yesterday, I missed them. Does that seem like a lotta snow to anyone?
Anything significant about moving the blue Honda? Whose is it?
TiA.


* Idaho murders: University adding more campus security personnel in spring semester Dec 21.

I'm currently a bit northeast, in Montana. In this general area (Washington, Idaho, Montana), we've been experiencing a rare Arctic blast that has dumped snow and dropped temperatures dramatically. Here where I am, it was -24F at around 10 this morning.

 

[Elliot_Alderson]

Can social media sleuths be sued?

Idaho murders: Can social media sleuths be sued for wrongful accusations?

Social media users spreading rumors about innocent people whom they believe to be involved in the murders of four Idaho college students could face legal consequences.

www.foxnews.com

I hope so. It's glaring all the doxing and information releasing happening on other sites without WS' rules.

 

[Diogenetic]

Well, I think there are some unspoken nuances here. First, the behavioral profilers I've heard from on this case have not classified this killing as very high-risk. The victims were sleeping and had been drinking, it was very late and dark out, there was no alarm on the house, and it was easy to see into the house/bedrooms from outside. That said, I agree with you that it was brazen to select a home with up to six occupants. While the exact number of occupants may not have been known to the killer, the number of vehicles parked outside of the house would have provided some indication of occupancy. This did not deter the killer.

I don't think that we can conclude solely based on the level of risk that the act had to be personal. I can imagine other scenarios, such as a killer who previously had committed home invasions and/or had killed with a knife before, that would explain his willingness to target 1122 King. Another possible explanation is that the killer's inhibitions were removed by use of a substance or substances. Based on everything I've seen I can't say with confidence that this killing was personal OR unplanned.

Like so many aspects of this case the above though is sternly effected by what the killer knew or did not know -- which in turn we do not know.
If he had some familiarity with the home, say been to a party there in the past couple of years. Or if he stalked victims that night and observed their inebriated state. Then this killing may well have been relatively low risk to the killer. Or started out as low risk, but he perceived the risk as greater than he thought once he went into second room with two people in it -- while he might have logically thought each room would have one person (and a lower threat of resistance to him). So he could have had his expectation of low risk and then surprise of not one room, but two rooms containing a more difficult task of killing two people at a time.

We have to keep in mind we have the benefit of hindsight. he may have know many aspects of where was where etc, and been surprised by others.

 

[ACG2x]

Interesting, it seems many have for some time placed E as the one who came out of the room and encountered the killer
Either E hears a noise and goes toward the noise
Or X encounters killer and E goes to aid X

Why? It Is my understanding that there is no evidence E or X was found outside of X room, correct?

We know there is a large amount of blood coming out of the room to the outside wall- so someone bled out in X room, on the floor against the rear wall, off of the bed.

Why do so many seem to think the door to X room was opened and an encounter In the hall?

Is it because some think the survivors saw E or X outside the room?
Or is it because someone has said or rumored E or X is in the hallway?

It has been stated that X had defense wounds, we do not know who else has defense wounds. The info about X defense wounds comes from coroner to X father? Correct?
What if coroner spoke to each family, and E and M family did not share what was said?

If E encountered the killer in the hall way he would have had defense wounds, there woudl have been a struggle. If a struggle did take place- this is the where the odds of collecting killer blood and DNA would be highest. The killer may have suffered injury
E is a big guy, let’s hope he and X got in a few good punches, or kicks, or scratches so this killer is not back in daily life blending- but instead healing or hiding

Just curious- is there evidence somewhere of location of bodies that I’ve missed?
Please share, thx

JMO

X's defensive wounds were noted by her father a few times and SG was the one who said there "was a heck of a battle going on in there".

There hasn't been any official report that E had defensive wounds but MOO was on the assumption if the killer went upstairs first and hacked at K & M and the ensuing noise woke E & X up, it would have been E to go check things out since by all family accounts he was a doting and protective boyfriend and as you said, a pretty fit and athletic guy. Their bedroom is behind a short hallway that doubles as a laundry room based on floor plans so I've even thought that E made it that far and called out for K & M or said something that alerted the killer he was awake. Kind of like "uh, guys everything OK?", etc.

If the killer charged him it's very possible he got a shot or two in but with at least somewhat the element of surprise and a large knife, E was at a distinct disadvantage. I too hope he went down fighting and made the killer miserable. I just figured E would take the lead here because he was a noble boyfriend and wanted to protect X.

As far as the location of the bodies, all LE has said is two on the third floor and two on the second. Most people have deduced that it was K&M on the third floor because that's where their rooms were anyway and SG said they died in the same bed and X's bedroom was on the second floor. There have been unconfirmed rumors that E was not found in the bedroom but I have yet to see an official source that notes that so I'll stay away from that part.

 

[OrlandoJames]

I seem to recall that LE stated that there was something specific at the scene that led them to say this was targeted. They have pretty much been silent on what that is. Their reachout to the FBI/State for assistance seems to me to be exactly what they should have done. This is a big crime scene, lots of evidence, etc. They needed resources and that is what the state and FBI are for.

Did they put it in those terms - that there was ‘something specific’? I can’t remember them being as concrete as that.

 

[Balthazar]

Also from that log:

22-M10966 Harassment
Incident Address : MOSCOW
MOSCOW ID 83843
Disposition : CLO
Time Reported: 13:05
Cad Comments:
RP's information has been posted online in reference to the homicides case
because RP used to live there. Officer contacted. No report.

And a harassment call about a male threatening neighbors and security on the 1100 block of kings rd…


X’s father has stated the same. LE said “some had defensive wounds” which doesn’t necessarily equate to “hell of a battle” but does corroborate their accounts IMO


This information has not been released yet

What an idiot - seems like he continued:

22-M10968 Harassment

Incident Address : 1100 BLK KING RD

MOSCOW ID 83843

Disposition : CLO

Time Reported: 14:10

Cad Comments:

Male harassing security and the media. The male is blocking the roadway.

Officers responded. No report.

 

[OrangeRhyme]

Well, I think there are some unspoken nuances here. First, the behavioral profilers I've heard from on this case have not classified this killing as very high-risk. The victims were sleeping and had been drinking, it was very late and dark out, there was no alarm on the house, and it was easy to see into the house/bedrooms from outside. That said, I agree with you that it was brazen to select a home with up to six occupants. While the exact number of occupants may not have been known to the killer, the number of vehicles parked outside of the house would have provided some indication of occupancy. This did not deter the killer.

I don't think that we can conclude solely based on the level of risk that the act had to be personal. I can imagine other scenarios, such as a killer who previously had committed home invasions and/or had killed with a knife before, that would explain his willingness to target 1122 King. Another possible explanation is that the killer's inhibitions were removed by use of a substance or substances. Based on everything I've seen I can't say with confidence that this killing was personal OR unplanned.

Its obviously high risk. 5 people and a dog and potentially 5 bfs.
Also how was he certain they were asleep?
They could've been on phones or on laptops watching tv. Often it's hard to sleep after drinking, other times pass out quickly.

To me this shows impaired judgement, not careful planning.

 

[Aquarian]

Thank you for trying. I'm not as good at remembering tons of cases, the way some of you are. I have my forensics books out too. The two main kinds of serial killer types are 1) sociopaths and 2) schizophrenics. These two categories in no way account for all serial type killings (which this killing isn't).

When women are killed, it's usually someone who knows them or a sex offender.

This case simply does not fall into any standard categories.

No it doesn’t, when they announced there was no SA, I was pretty shocked as I was sure there was with there being four girls. A real head scratcher. Makes me turn toward anger and or revenge of some sort. Just don’t know.

 

[10ofRods]

Out of interest, why do you believe this?

For one thing, LE has asked very little help from the public in solving this, preferring instead to go to ground and to interview lots and lots of people. As they went into the interview phase, my sense is that the Chief looks more confident and said as recently as yesterday that he's *very* confident that this case will be solved.

LE found two distraught co-residents of the house present when they arrived. Both of those people gave their immediate impressions of what was going on. Two other friends were there (two or more, we just know it was more than one; one of them got on the 911 call). Those people also gave their views on what was going on.

LE has the digital footprints of every person close to these young people. Through geofencing, they also have much information about phone calls, texts and even router use since the murders. The area posted by police as the area of interest (Old Cop has posted it before) was entirely within the neighborhood (and, interestingly, mostly from just above the house's and the east/west street just north of it, down toward fraternity row).

They never did an APB or official BOLO, to my knowledge, for the Elantra, instead asking if anyone knew of someone using it/its whereabouts on Nov 12-13 and the days prior. I believe they have security camera footage from nearby houses and had a reason for that ask. I also think they know who had been driving an Elantra during those days, but the person isn't cooperating (nor is the owner of the Elantra). LE also knows who (of the many possible POI's they must have looked at) is cooperating. My intuition tells me that car fibers may play a role in evidence (and that DNA evidence is not going to be as strong - because the killer was in the house before; DNA doesn't come with timestamps).

There are other things, but that's my short list. I'd have to look up specific news articles to mention other clues, but another clue is in the changing words of the daily updates/reports. "We want a conviction, not just an arrest," is an example.

 

[Aquarian]

I seem to recall that LE stated that there was something specific at the scene that led them to say this was targeted. They have pretty much been silent on what that is. Their reachout to the FBI/State for assistance seems to me to be exactly what they should have done. This is a big crime scene, lots of evidence, etc. They needed resources and that is what the state and FBI are for.

I wonder if something was written. Like derogatory toward one or more? Other than displaying ppl, but it doesn’t sound sexual in nature I can’t think what else it might be, anyone else?

 

[OrlandoJames]

I wonder if something was written. Like derogatory toward one or more? Other than displaying ppl, but it doesn’t sound sexual in nature I can’t think what else it might be, anyone else?

Not all sexually motivated murders involve a sexual assault at the scene.

 

[jumpingjackflash]

Its obviously high risk. 5 people and a dog and potentially 5 bfs.
Also how was he certain they were asleep?
They could've been on phones or on laptops watching tv. Often it's hard to sleep after drinking, other times pass out quickly.

To me this shows impaired judgement, not careful planning.

Consider where this case would fall according to the risk categories below:

These are MOO- what should be added? Changed? To understand Risk
Victim Risk
low- children, elderly, disabled, small women, drugs/ alcohol, sleep
high- young, healthy, athletic, large male, awake, trained

Location Risk
low pop- rural area with distant neighbors, noises not heard, entry and exit not visible, easy layout short distance of travel
high pop- dense population with near neighbors, noises heard, entry and exit visible, complex layout long distance of travel

Timing Risk/ Light vs Dark
night- darkness, low movement, people asleep
day- light, high movement times- people going to work or coming home

Weapon Risk
low- distance and speed- gun
med- sharp weapon, blunt force weapon
high- manual strangulation, bare fists

Risk is more complicated than low and high?
Victim- low young women alcohol
Location- high populated, entry/ exit not visible in rear
Timing- low darkness, people asleep
Weapon- medium risk speed and sharp

 

[NuttMegg]

There's a guy who has walked by the Corner Club and put up video of it on youtube. It surprised me, and its main form of entertainment seems to be a kind of table top shuffle board. No signs of a stage or anything denoting live music. Internet searches do not turn up any evidence of life music there. It's a cinder block building with basically no views, no windows, at the edge of the downtown district. The people who were inside during this person's pass-by late at night are all middle aged. There isn't good standing room near the bar, either.

Google map photos show a lot of sports memorabilia, and a wider range of age groups (but the youtube guy is there later at night, the google photos are from various times).

The videos on Google maps show the "middle aged" demographic again.

The house at 1122 King Road is pretty small to host a band (unless outside). The noise complaint was about recorded music, apparently.

Did you see this 10ofRods? Someone posted it a few days ago, and I reposted yesterday, as I find the change in clientele after 9 pm quite interesting. This may have been where one of the girls attracted obsessive attention from a local who developed hatred for her spanning weeks/months. Someone who might not have drawn attention from LE if they examined only very recent bar cam videos.

Finding America's Best Sports Bars: Idaho's Corner Club Has Nailed the Formula | Sports Illustrated

 

[AngTxGal]

Yes. Right along those lines. To go one further, I contend they reside within close proximity to the home. Or they stay with someone who lives within this area. I also believe they live within the “line of sight” of the home. It was in their crosshairs. They could have easily monitored any activity from afar with binos or a scope. Jmoho

I‘ve seriously considered this too, but wow the creep factor and brazenness makes me pause.
So now where are they, safe and warm in their home watching all the events at the house Nearby? Or did they leave town and are hiding/healing somewhere to return After the holidays?

I tend to think the killer is not someone who has been in the spotlight of social media. To me they were a lurker on the GrubTruck footage online, now watching social media, could be in chats.

Do they have a buzz, is it waning? Radio silence would get them to act, if they like the attention. What action would they take if the buzz wanes?
- an interview?
- a clue?
- another crime?
- come out of hiding and go back to life?

JMO

 

[drmrgrl]

Statistically, the least "off the wall" theory is one that places the killer closer to the victims, not some loner on the outskirts of town. IMO.

But I am very interested in hearing from WSers which crimes they've followed that did involve a loner-killer (besides Dahmer).

There have to be at least a few. Further, I'd be very curious if any of the loners killed without any signs of sexual assault. If you know of any, please mention (even if the number of victims was lower - let's say at least 2 victims).

Zodiac Killer
Eric Copple-Napa CA
Uvalde Shooter
Las Vegas shooter