ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 36

[10ofRods]

Hi all, long time lurker, first time poster.

Just a couple of thoughts that I'd like to share. First of all, if any specific person was targeted the surely there must have been "better" (i.e. safer from the perps point of view) opportunities to attack that person when he or she is separated from friends or other people who may fight back. If it was a planned attack then why "plan" on going into a house full of people? Surely there are way better plans than that. Next, in my opinion there is no way (considering the staircase, movable stuff and dog running around) that the perp didn't use any sort of light amplification hardware. Surely at 3-4 AM the inside of the house would be pitch black and hard to navigate even if the perp was familiar with the layout, things get moved, young people ofter rearrange space around them. Finally, if it there was any sort of planning going into this attack and the perp was absolutely decided on using a knife then, again, surely he'd realize that it's hard to subdue two people fighting for life with just a bladed weapon. Back in the old days Zodiac, who definitely planned a lot, and was also boind on using a knife during one of his attacks, knew that it's safer to simply approach victims openly with a firearm, order to lay face down, tie them and only then attack with a knife knowing that they're immobilized. After all, what guarantee did King Street perp had that *all* of the house occupants are asleep and/or heavily inebriated. So potentially one loud scream and he'd have 6 people awake and fighting for life (or, more likely) running away. Only an idiot wouldn't have a firearm as a backup for "crowd control" in such situation.

So, while this doesn't seem to me like a work of a psychopath high on drugs (he had to be silent to a degree, didn't leave the weapon on site, wasn't spotted in bloodied clothes etc.) there also doesn't seem to be an evil mastermind behind it (using knife instead of gun, selected extremely risky venue).

And finally, I don't think the victims were completely unaware that some sort of attack may take place. I seems to me that multiple attempts to contact ex that night by one (or even both) of the girls would indicate they were trying to reach out for help. So this makes going into this house woth jist a knife, no matter how large, even more risky. Just the fact that the lighs are switched off doesn't always mean that everyone's soundly asleep instead of just laying awake with a handgun, taser or can of pepper spray close by...

Sorry for a lenghty post, all of the above IMHO.

Great post. I mull over these same issues.

About the light: some have said (and I can't dis-confirm it) that lights were on here and there throughout the house all night. It appeared that Kaylee's neon light was still on the next day. Moon was at 77% and the kitchen had windows that would let in light. But I agree with you about the difficulty of entering a darkened room, with two victims, is quite difficult without some kind of light. I have envisioned two things (and feel crazy typing them out). Common headlamp OR easily purchased night vision goggles, which many gamers and college guys think are wonderful fun.

Some people do have really good night vision though. I don't. But I know people who do.

Similarly, there had to be mental rehearsal for this. Habits studied, assumptions made, a person very high on their own grandiose view of what they could do without being caught. I figure the knife was this person's long term weapon of choice. By "long term" I mean more than a couple of years.

I think the calls to the ex mean something - but not necessarily a call for help.

When we find out what happened, all the dots will connect better. What was the motive?? Why that particular night?

 

[CityKid]

I hear what you're saying, and the public response is definitely a problem. I'm not convinced that MPD should alter their investigation tactics though. Like many things in life, there's no easy answer.

That said, I think your analogy wording is off. MPD says the Elantra was in the area and that the "occupant(s) may have critical information to share regarding this case." LE has never claimed that the occupant(s) are considered suspects. In my opinion, it is irresponsible for anyone to jump to that conclusion. It is far worse to act on that erroneous conclusion and insert oneself into an investigation.

MOO I think knowing who the occupants are either tightens everyone's time lines, or busts someone's alibi. I don't believe the occupants are necessarily perpetrators (although they may be accessories).

 

[CityKid]

Idaho murders: Footsteps can be heard on 'every floor,' former tenant says

A former resident of the home where four Idaho college students were murdered said that every footstep was audible in the "creaky" house with "poor insulation."

www.foxnews.com

Idaho murders: Footsteps can be heard on 'every floor,' former tenant says

A former tenant of the home where four University of Idaho students were knifed to death told Fox News Digital that every footstep can be heard in the "creaky, old" home.

"It's a very creaky, old house," said Cole Alteneder, who graduated in 2022 and lived at 1122 King Road his junior year. "You can hear the footsteps on every floor."
(snipped)​

So he lived there 2020-21? I thought Xana was there at that time, with the other roommates moving there in 21?

 

[rahod1]

Pretty sure there are a lot of innocent people who left the area post attack. JMO.

They can still vet those. They could *limit* the search to residents other than students and perhaps limiting it to a defined area....for example within a half mile or so. Just MOO.

 

[hopewell]

What if the Elantra has been sitting in the back of someone's garage (a deceased grandparent, for instance) for five years with no plates? Can/how can cars like this be traced.

Last known owner will have a registration and address on file, even if expired.

 

[rahod1]

What if the Elantra has been sitting in the back of someone's garage (a deceased grandparent, for instance) for five years with no plates? Can/how can cars like this be traced.

I was addressing confusing the two models referenced ...as the original poster suggested. BTW FYI, cars are traced by VIN #

 

[Arkay]

I don't know much, if anything, about "Greek" life; there was none of that at the Universites I attended. What I did find interesting in the Sept 1 body cam was one of the officers (seemingly the lead) saying something to the effect to one of the partiers "You dont want us to go to the Greek Council". That seemed strange to me. JMO. It sounded like the Council had more power than the police or, alternatively, that the police had to clear certain actions through them. I expected him to say something to the effect of "You don't want us to haul you off to jail".

Again, it might be that I simply do not understand how that world operates. MOO.

I was never a party to Greek life. I have three college degrees, but even when I was a teenager I was more bookish and was not attracted to that lifestyle.

What I know about Greek life is from family members who are different than me, and for whom getting into the sorority of their choice was everything.

From what I've observed, the National Councils of the various sororities and fraternities wield enormous power in the minds of these kids. They have the power to boot a local sorority or frat from a particular campus. That ends the fun, the socials, the housing, the connections, the access to parties, the Greek events, the résumé and so on.

Even though they don't want the cops to come and they don't want to get arrested, IMO for some kids in Greek life, cops at the door are less terrifying than their frats or sororities shutting them down.

My niece went to one major university where her sorority was idyllic for the lifestyle she wanted. Then one of the frats with whom they socialized got shut down, because the brothers let someone drink himself to actual DEATH and tried to cover it up. It was sobering, literally and figuratively. She didn't drop out of her sorority but was much less involved after that, plus she was already a senior and winding down from university life.

So yes, I can see that the threat of calling the Greek Council on campus, who will alert the Nationals, is the worst that these kids can imagine.

Jmo and second-hand experience.

 

[rahod1]

What if the Elantra has been sitting in the back of someone's garage (a deceased grandparent, for instance) for five years with no plates? Can/how can cars like this be traced.

I was addressing confusing the two models referenced ...as the original poster suggested. BTW FYI, cars are traced by VIN #

 

[155etta]

I don't know much, if anything, about "Greek" life; there was none of that at the Universites I attended. What I did find interesting in the Sept 1 body cam was one of the officers (seemingly the lead) saying something to the effect to one of the partiers "You dont want us to go to the Greek Council". That seemed strange to me. JMO. It sounded like the Council had more power than the police or, alternatively, that the police had to clear certain actions through them. I expected him to say something to the effect of "You don't want us to haul you off to jail".

Again, it might be that I simply do not understand how that world operates. MOO

I don't know much, if anything, about "Greek" life; there was none of that at the Universites I attended. What I did find interesting in the Sept 1 body cam was one of the officers (seemingly the lead) saying something to the effect to one of the partiers "You dont want us to go to the Greek Council". That seemed strange to me. JMO. It sounded like the Council had more power than the police or, alternatively, that the police had to clear certain actions through them. I expected him to say something to the effect of "You don't want us to haul you off to jail".

Again, it might be that I simply do not understand how that world operates. MOO.

My son graduated from U of I in recent years. He was not involved in Greek Life but was very familiar with the party culture in the area. According to him, the local police were more interested in busting people for pot (not legal in Idaho but available to purchase legally just over the border in Washington 8 miles away) than they were in busting underage kids for alcohol. MOO.

 

[SUSAN ANN]

I just looked at the Moscow police daily log page and the list starts with 1223 2022. The others are gone. Is that unusual? This is just my opinion, but I think some bad things were going on, drugs, maybe, bullying, and those fraternities and sororities, and the whole school will have to recover from whatever happened, just my opinion. maybe somebody in that house was trying to fight bad things, maybe, just my opinion.

 

[10ofRods]

I'm sorry, I thought those camera's were tracking traffic. In the country where I live they use red light systems that are completely different. Although they seem to have a 360 cam at entering point of the campus.

Thank you - but it looks like a regular traffic cam to me. It doesn't move or track, and I assume it doesn't stream either.

I think it's part of this system:

Moscow, ID Live Traffic Cameras & Local Road Conditions | WeatherBug

Access Moscow traffic cameras on demand with WeatherBug. Choose from several local traffic webcams across Moscow, ID. Avoid traffic & plan ahead!

www.weatherbug.com

Or similar.

Most of these cameras take 1-10 pictures per minute. So they get a slice of traffic. At major intersections and on some highways. I think a lot of young people think that almost any weirdo will be caught on camera but in fact, it's fairly thin coverage and I'd be surprised/can't find any indication that any of the data is stored for any length of time.

A lot of the Moscow area cameras seem to be 1 frame per minute (weather cams).

 

[AngTxGal]

A few ideas…I know it’s too long.

1-I think that the murderer lives within sight of the house and knows the interior of the house very well.

2- Since the day after the murders is Sunday, I think that he was working at a job having a standart off-day as Sunday and that's why he chose Saturday night.

3- I think he is a smart person and has calculated the escape plan after the murder, determined the places where he would get rid of his clothes and the murder weapon, and the car he used avoiding the cameras while managing this.

4-I think he escaped from the back of the house and got into his stolen parked car(white Hyundai imo) , then got rid of the car without being caught on camera and returned to his house by public transportation the next day. Or maybe before the murders he took his own car to the place where he switched the cars.

5- I believe that the cameras in the public transportation and the entrance and exit camera records of the neighbors houses and cars of Saturday and Sunday were checked .

6- My guess is he knew the people in the house from the neighborhood, he had been in the house before, he was pissed off due to the noise and loud parties, and he had serious psychological problems and had taken drugs before the murders. In his sick mindset, he targeted the house and its occupants .. The LE statement ‘’ targeting the house ’’ supports this view , in my opinion .

7-I think he started with K and M then E and X. I don’t think he would take the risk of waking up both above and below residents by starting from the middle floor.

8-In my opinion, people who live nearby and have a record of car theft and use heavy prescription psychological drugs should also be on the radar.

What public transportation?
If he lives within sight of the house, why would he drive away rather than go home?

My thoughts are similar to yours, but I don’t have an idea where he may live.
I think he could have exited the back of the home And walked away from the house either to his own nearby home or walked away to a car waiting in the woods.
I do think there is mental illness of some kind, delusional/ obsessive, but not to the degree of insanity defense (which Idaho does not recognize anyway).
Could be drug use, one thing that could hype up a person to courage is meth. But I’ve not heard the attack was a frenzy- so not sure planned and calculated goes with drug use.

I don’t think he is in their circle, he may know them but I don't think they know him.

JMO

 

[TheUnderlyingCause]

I was never a party to Greek life. I have three college degrees, but even when I was a teenager I was more bookish and was not attracted to that lifestyle.

What I know about Greek life is from family members who are different than me, and for whom getting into the sorority of their choice was everything.

From what I've observed, the National Councils of the various sororities and fraternities wield enormous power in the minds of these kids. They have the power to boot a local sorority or frat from a particular campus. That ends the fun, the socials, the housing, the connections, the access to parties, the Greek events, the résumé and so on.

Even though they don't want the cops to come and they don't want to get arrested, IMO for some kids in Greek life, cops at the door are less terrifying than their frats or sororities shutting them down.

My niece went to one major university where her sorority was idyllic for the lifestyle she wanted. Then one of the frats with whom they socialized got shut down, because the brothers let someone drink himself to actual DEATH and tried to cover it up. It was sobering, literally and figuratively. She didn't drop out of her sorority but was much less involved after that, plus she was already a senior and winding down from university life.

So yes, I can see that the threat of calling the Greek Council on campus, who will alert the Nationals, is the worst that these kids can imagine.

Jmo and second-hand experience.

Thanks for the insights. Seems like we'd all be better off just going to school for an education. In my humble and bemused opinion.

 

[North_Idaho_Nony]

I just looked at the Moscow police daily log page and the list starts with 1223 2022. The others are gone. Is that unusual? This is just my opinion, but I think some bad things were going on, drugs, maybe, bullying, and those fraternities and sororities, and the whole school will have to recover from whatever happened, just my opinion. maybe somebody in that house was trying to fight bad things, maybe, just my opinion.

As someone who has been reading them for years, they keep about a month’s worth online at a time, which anyone can see here:
MPD Press Log 12/23/2022

For anyone interested in older ones, it’s a simple matter to submit a Public Records Request:
MPD Public Records Request | Moscow, ID

HTH!

FWIW, as someone who has been reading the MPD DALs since they first became available, I’ve not seen entries that would support the pattern you raise.

But other eyes might see things differently!

MOO

 

[EmmieA]

Yes, the kitchen/bedroom on second floor was added along with the 3rd floor. New roof system to a roofers wife did not mean like newly reroofed, just changed while adding the the addition. Imo

The 2nd & 3rd floors are part of the original structure - the ground floor is the part that was added on to the house.

“The house originally had two floors, but an owner requested to add the lowest floor in 2000, according to Moscow city permits. Built into a hillside, the house has one exterior door on each floor.”

The house on King Road: A look at the Moscow home where four U of I students were killed - East Idaho News

(Idaho Statesman) — At 1122 King Road in Moscow sits a gray six-bedroom, three-bathroom house that continues to be the source of significant national attention. Known as a student rental, the home’s most recent tenants were a group of six University of Idaho undergraduates who signed a 12-month...

www.eastidahonews.com

 

[AngTxGal]

I'll let people be the judge as to differences here
2013 Elantra
https://www.gravityautossandysprings.com/galleria_images/4395/4395_main_l.jpg

2019 Ioniq>>
https://file.kelleybluebookimages.com/kbb/base/evox/CP/13067/2019-Hyundai-Ioniq%20Hybrid-
front_13067_032_1834x794_WAW_cropped.png

If I saw the symbol H, I would know Hyundai. I know none of the models.

At night- small white 4-door sedan would be the best I could do.

JMO

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

What do you mean by "high quality" traffic cams? The traffic management cams are not streaming (or so I thought). Do they have red light cams? Because those are only triggered by the infraction.

Idaho is really strict about what cameras can do when owned by the public. There is no police surveillance using streamed camera video, to my knowledge.

The pictures from Taylor were said to be from neighbors' security cams, no? I don't classify private security cameras as "high quality traffic cams" and have yet to see any traffic cam footage from Moscow, at all.

So - how do we know such cameras exist? Most highway cameras take still pictures at intervals for traffic and weather monitoring, with only a fraction of cars being caught and no preservation of images past a certain amount of time (often as brief as an hour).

If there were high quality cameras all around Moscow, I think we'd be seeing a very different sort of LE investigation and less asking for public help in trying to find video of a particular car.

The reason they're using stock images is that the CCTV videos (including the ones from the gas station) are quite low quality.

Agreed. There are 10 traffic cams in Moscow: Idaho 511 Travel Information

because I am quite strange, I have watched the cameras, and between bad angles and glare, fog, other inclement weather, etc., IMO these cameras are not what I would consider high quality, and IMO not sure how useful they might be for details.

Also, within the perimeter LE has set (north Taylor; south Palouse river dr.; east 95; west arboretum), there is only one ID traffic camera, and that is at 95 & Palouse River. Otherwise, LE is relying on business or personal /home video within that perimeter. That is not to say that LE could not use the other cameras once a vehicle of interest were identified within the perimeter - certainly they could do that and appear to have done that. iMO the way LE did this was very smart.

Imo LE chose that perimeter knowing that in order to get to the 1122 King house, the killer was either 1) already within that perimeter or 2) had to cross into the perimeter across one of those roads. Of course, that does not mean the perp had to drive down those roads - it means they had to at least cross one IMO. There is no other way to access the house. IMO, based on the map, LE chose the smallest but most precise search area possible, and expanded from there.

I would bet LE followed the path of any car that moved within that area that night, and they narrowed down to the white HE - this IMO of course. So IMO the white HE was seen on video within the perimeter and then LE used video to follow the HE after leaving the perimeter which is potentially how they ended up hitting Troy and Kendrick. Of course, if the killer was smart, they checked the traffic cams before setting the route in and out. If they actually took Taylor/Styner, points off for bad travel choices (businesses, bus stops, wider streets, etc.).

IMO If the killer made it to either of the two small town, there were more choices they could use. I liked the trail idea, but that's just me. I will say that IMO if people did see someone on that trail biking, running, etc., they might have been more apt to notice appearance if they were looking for a killer, but the murders hadn't been announced yet, so easy enough to slip back into town and/or go to their own car and leave from outside the perimeter. IMO we're still at needle/haystack, but who knows. I can say that IMO the travel cameras could potentially help ID whether a car that appears to be a white/light HE crossed through, but more than that, less likely. However, the FBI has some lean, mean tech tools, so I hope they're able to narrow down a whole lot more.

Everything above is JMO IMO IMI

 

[Angelcat13]

Profiling, to be of any use, must be based on some good facts. Most of the profiling I have seen is based upon assumptions, so it is largely useless.

I wonder what the statistics are regarding profiling? Someone here recently mentioned 66%, but I wonder what the statistics are when I profile is created by someone who is part of the investigation and aware of details vs profiles created by “former experts” who don’t know much more -or anything more - about the specifics of the crime/crime scene than the general public.

Having watched several “former experts” talk about their profiles just in this case, there is such a variety that it makes profiling seem almost nothing more than guesswork.

Sadly, this likely detracts from profiles by professionals within an investigation.

 

[10ofRods]

The 2nd & 3rd floors are part of the original structure - the ground floor is the part that was added on to the house.

“The house originally had two floors, but an owner requested to add the lowest floor in 2000, according to Moscow city permits. Built into a hillside, the house has one exterior door on each floor.”

The house on King Road: A look at the Moscow home where four U of I students were killed - East Idaho News

(Idaho Statesman) — At 1122 King Road in Moscow sits a gray six-bedroom, three-bathroom house that continues to be the source of significant national attention. Known as a student rental, the home’s most recent tenants were a group of six University of Idaho undergraduates who signed a 12-month...

www.eastidahonews.com

You win. That article does follow upon the addition in 2000 of the *lower* floor. Did it ever have a garage, I wonder?

It's been repeated around the internet that it was the opposite (and someone said they'd checked permits) but I'm going to trust the reporter here (there's more than one article with this perspective).

Long time party house, says the article. I do wonder if the City of Moscow will take any action regarding several issues that come to mind.

 

[10ofRods]

I wonder what the statistics are regarding profiling? Someone here recently mentioned 66%, but I wonder what the statistics are when I profile is created by someone who is part of the investigation and aware of details vs profiles created by “former experts” who don’t know much more -or anything more - about the specifics of the crime/crime scene than the general public.

Having watched several “former experts” talk about their profiles just in this case, there is such a variety that it makes profiling seem almost nothing more than guesswork.

Sadly, this likely detracts from profiles by professionals within an investigation.

But that doesn't matter a whole lot - because the investigation knows how to use profilers properly. I would say that various kinds of behavioral scientists are called in on an "as needed" basis and often with only knowledge of certain aspects of the investigation, sometimes just to observe questioning and make suggestions.

That's very different from trying to make a full profile out of whole cloth, from outside of the investigation.