ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 36

[layer]

In context of 5-6 yr relationship, w "break"/breakup a few months ago, I can understand relative saying WTTE: We all thought they were getting married. Meaning, we thought so for swveral yrs, UNTIL this break/breakup.
She may have even cont'ed thinking that AFTER break/breakup, as the couple had broken up & reconciled before, iirc.

Some fam members get v enthusiastic about the younger gen. getting married.

Not just his aunt. Goncalves’ mom, in an interview on “Lawrence Jones Cross Country“

“Kaylee and Jack would have eventually been married. They would have eventually been married, and they would have eventually had children.”

 

[HMSHood]

<modsnip: Discussing other members or moderation is not allowed>

There is no such correlation that I'm aware of.

There have been cases of mass murder by incels, but they have not resembled this crime very closely. The two crimes that come to mind right away are 1) the École Polytechnique massacre of 1989 in which Marc Lépine killed fourteen women and wounded ten others (along with four men) and 2) the Isla Vista killings of 2014 in which incel Elliot Rodger stabbed three men to death and then shot dead two women and one man; he also injured fourteen people by striking them with a motor vehicle.

Both of those crimes were committed very publicly. Both perpetrators wrote manifestos of sorts in order to air their grievances, and both committed suicide following their crimes. Neither expected to get away with his murders. Both wanted people to know the motivations for their crimes.

Most mass murderers expect to be caught. The Moscow, Idaho, killings are unlike most mass murders. I don't believe that this crime was planned as a mass murder; I believe that the perpetrator intended to kill one or two of the victims and that the other victims were collateral damage.

Not all mass murderers are incels. Stephen Paddock, the perpetrator of the 2018 Las Vegas massacre, was a twice-divorced man with a live-in girlfriend. He may not have been a ladies' man, but he certainly wasn't a virgin.

James Huberty, the perpetrator of the San Ysidro McDonald's massacre of 1984, was married with children.

Marc Lepine felt like a failure. He tried to get into the Canadian military and was rejected. He was also rejected by École Polytechnique. I have not read of any sexual for Marc Lepine. I would not be surprised if he is sexual repressed and/or frustrated.

https://schoolshooters.info/sites/default/files/adult_school_shooters_1.1.pdf

https://schoolshooters.info/sites/default/files/lepine_note_1.1.pdf

Elliot Rodger felt like a failure all around. He had an extreme entitlement mentality. He had unhealthy obsession with sexuality. Something I have seen in the past with other killers. They have an extreme obsession with sexuality. George Sodini, Eric Harris, Adam Lanza, Omar Mateen, Gertrude Baniszewski, Lori Drew, Laurie Tackett, Pamela Smart, Dora Cisneros, John Haigh, John Wayne Gacy, and Osama bin Laden come to mind in terms extreme obsession with sexuality.

Some have rape fantasy and even accused of sexual assault. Elliot Rodger, Eric Harris, Salvador Ramos, and Stephen Paddock had rape fantasy. Devin Kelley was accused of sexual assault.

I still think the University of Idaho killer is an injustice collector. That has been the case with school shooters, mass killers, and terrorists.

 

[layer]

I am curious if the general consensus is that one person alone carried out the attack ?

One very dangerous individual.

JMHO

 

[TooMuchGun]

One very dangerous individual.

JMHO

I think 1 killer, 1 helper moo

 

[al66pine]

Not just his aunt. Goncalves’ mom, in an interview on “Lawrence Jones Cross Country“
“Kaylee and Jack would have eventually been married. They would have eventually been married, and they would have eventually had children.”

@layer Sorry, could have been clearer in my post.

Point was --- linked article did NOT quote exBF JdC on HIS thoughts re likelihood of marriage, but some read it as his.
Did not quote JdC at all, IIRC.

Article quoted aunt who gave HER thoughts re marriage anticipation, which may or may not paralleled JdC's thoughts.

imo jmo moo

 

[Cryptic]

IMO someone who crosses the line this far deserves to get sued, whether they have the money to pay damages or not.

Idaho is a per se state.

Also, the second amendment is the right to bear arms and not free speech

Point well taken regarding the amendment error.

The psychic, however, is in Texas and the suit is federal. As result, Idaho laws do not apply.

That aside, whether or not someone deserves to be sued, and whether or not it is prudent to sue somebody can be two entirely different cases. This maybe one of those cases.

I imagine that Tic Tok will ban her account very soon. Likewise I imagine that with a little imagination (or with the assistance of a 'net wise 14 year old), she can find new platforms that wont ban her and that care little about US federal suits. Meanwhile, I would not be surprised if her viewership is going through the roof.

I dont know what federal court calendars look like. They only thing that may stop her is fear of confinement (maybe via contempt of Court? But... how easily can a person be ordered by a Court to stop a civil suit action before being found libelous by a jury?

Then there is the matter of what can be collected from a tic tok psychic. In short, it might have better to have ignored her.

 

[10ofRods]

IMO- locksmith? Home renovator? Construction?property manager?property owner?

Could be. A terribly methodical and perhaps lucky crime, if so. I find it hard to believe that such a person (a sociopath at the very least) would not have tortured animals or done some other crimes as warm-up (breaking and entering, spying, stalking, etc).

However, their DNA should be in the proper places (where they worked) and if they find that same DNA in the murder rooms, that's bad news for that person.

Indeed, I would imagine that finding a good DNA profile on a door knob or door jamb or place that a person has worked on the house and THEN finding it in the bedroom would result in that person being interviewed very, very carefully.

The early lab results could be back right now, if such a person was suspected and the investigators get lucky, yes, a match between say DNA found mixed with victim blood to the interior of a lockset or the water heater valves if recently fixed...would be a big clue to follow.

Also, a really dumb locksmith (if that's who it is), someone whose compulsions over rode everything else. Presumably, there are not a string of attacks at houses where the same locksmith has been working over the past year. Or any other tradesperson.

 

[10ofRods]

IMO, but he has roommates to corroborate it?

Do his roommates sleep in his room with him? I find that very unlikely. I don't imagine many college age people still share a room, especially if off campus. Even in frats (unless very low in the totem pole).

Unless the roommate can say they are an exceptionally light sleeper, always, a sleeping roommate is not necessarily a good corroborator for an alibi - if I were LE, I'd want a bit more.

Hopefully it doesn't come down to weak alibis - a lot of people were probably believed to be sleeping or were actually sleeping that night.

By that, I mean, hopefully no evidence connected the ex-BF to the crime will be found or has been found. If so, his alibi should stand.

 

[javi]

There is a factor that to me eliminates a stalker or anyone who had "planned" to kill, especially if Kaylee or Ethan was his intended victim.

Kaylee had only come for the weekend to show her car and Ethan was not a resident there either, he was just staying the night. The killer would have had to be either incredibly knowledgeable about their schedules or be awfully lucky for them to be there that night.

This makes it much more logical to me that something triggered somebody that night, due to sometlhing that happened. This is why it is critical to know where Ethan and Xana were for the unaccounted-for time that nobody is able to confirm their whereabouts. Did they walk home ? Did they come with somebody in a car ? Did anybody go in the house with them ? Where did they enter the house ?

And I find it incredibly strange that Alivea said she saw video of a neighbor's security camera that captured Maddie and Kaylee returning home But yet to my knowledge that camera does not capture Ethan and Xana coming home. How is that possible ? Anyone going into that house would almost certainly approach from the front just like Maddie and Kaylee did when they were dropped off by the rideshare driver. Coming from the college you would still pass the front of the house even if you were going around to the back to go into the sliding door. Did they parachute in ?

 

[Strong1]

There is a factor that to me eliminates a stalker or anyone who had "planned" to kill, especially if Kaylee or Ethan was his intended victim.

Kaylee had only come for the weekend to show her car and Ethan was not a resident there either, he was just staying the night. The killer would have had to be either incredibly knowledgeable about their schedules or be awfully lucky for them to be there that night.

This makes it much more logical to me that something triggered somebody that night, due to sometlhing that happened. This is why it is critical to know where Ethan and Xana were for the unaccounted-for time that nobody is able to confirm their whereabouts. Did they walk home ? Did they come with somebody in a car ? Did anybody go in the house with them ? Where did they enter the house ?

And I find it incredibly strange that Alivea said she saw video of a neighbor's security camera that captured Maddie and Kaylee returning home But yet to my knowledge that camera does not capture Ethan and Xana coming home. How is that possible ? Anyone going into that house would almost certainly approach from the front just like Maddie and Kaylee did when they were dropped off by the rideshare driver. Coming from the college you would still pass the front of the house even if you were going around to the back to go into the sliding door. Did they parachute in ?

Is it possible that the camera picked up the car that dropped Kaylee & Maddie off, but if Xana and Ethan were walking it may have not picked them up?

 

[hopewell]

It can be. It can also be a longterm simmering pattern of thought. Many wife-murderers are pretty good at disposing of evidence. See the Suzanne Morphew story. I feel as if we're seeing more of those (there's one in my area right now).

Ruminating on grievances, in other words. I don't disagree with that. I wasn't implying that mass murder is a rational act. Only that acting with the intention of getting away with it is. One can drift between and/or combine rational and irrational thinking. We do it all the time.

Thinking you're going to get away with a heinous crime does not constitute ordinary rationality to me (or even rationality). I guess I could further qualify this by saying that "rational self-interest" is a real thing, most people possess. People who murder may believe it's in their rational self-interest at the moment, but for a lot of them, I'm not so sure.

Thinking you're going to get away with it can be either rational or irrational, depending on your behavior.

Many women are stalked by their former spouses or boyfriends; many have time to get a court order against them. Some men spend quite a bit of time carefully planning and evading being caught. I see "rage" as an uncontrollable expression of the limbic system - it's not always present. But if we want to be circular, yes, we can say that anyone who kills their spouse or intimate partner is in a rage, by definition (in which case it loses all explanatory value and we have to ask, why are some people so prone to this rage and others not?)

I should have qualified my use of impulsive rage as occurring most of the time in murders against significant others. Folks who ruminate and plot are pathological and stunted developmentally (and rare birds frankly). Their rage is mostly internal and projected, even if killing a boyfriend or spouse.

In some cultures, it's almost an expected, automatic response. I know of a case where a man unsuccessfully attempted to strangle his wife and when asked why he did it, he said, "It was just time to do it." He has a diagnosis of schizophrenia. Wife had taken steps to acquire a separate place to live (with the kids, wasn't cheating). As is common with schizophrenic killings, he had flat affect. No rage.

Not really a fair analogy since schizophrenia is fairly rare, and schizophrenics who kill even more so. Schizophrenics who kill typically have command prompts as well, which compel them to kill. Indeed, it's less affect and more 'matter-of-fact' that describes their emotive responses. They were just doing what they were told.

Perceived closeness is an interesting diagnostic box to tick. I was stalked twice in my life, both times by someone who thought they were way closer to me than they actually were. I didn't even know their names. One was a student (who was also stalking another professor - and that student did not, to my knowledge, ever kill anyone). The other is a much longer story. Every New Year for the past 20 years, I'd check to see if my stalker was still around and where she was living. Last year, I found that she was deceased and, well, I felt guilty about being so glad, but at the same time, it was such an ordeal.

I am still on the fence about who could have done this, why, and how. I think that shows just how good LE is doing at preserving information.

My opinion.

 

[10ofRods]

I'm about to sign off but wanted to say that there were four victims and four sets of social relationships for LE to study.

IMO, the romantic partners of all four, past and present, should be looked into closely. And I believe that's what is happening.

 

[drmrgrl]

There is a factor that to me eliminates a stalker or anyone who had "planned" to kill, especially if Kaylee or Ethan was his intended victim.

Kaylee had only come for the weekend to show her car and Ethan was not a resident there either, he was just staying the night. The killer would have had to be either incredibly knowledgeable about their schedules or be awfully lucky for them to be there that night.

This makes it much more logical to me that something triggered somebody that night, due to sometlhing that happened. This is why it is critical to know where Ethan and Xana were for the unaccounted-for time that nobody is able to confirm their whereabouts. Did they walk home ? Did they come with somebody in a car ? Did anybody go in the house with them ? Where did they enter the house ?

And I find it incredibly strange that Alivea said she saw video of a neighbor's security camera that captured Maddie and Kaylee returning home But yet to my knowledge that camera does not capture Ethan and Xana coming home. How is that possible ? Anyone going into that house would almost certainly approach from the front just like Maddie and Kaylee did when they were dropped off by the rideshare driver. Coming from the college you would still pass the front of the house even if you were going around to the back to go into the sliding door. Did they parachute in ?

IMO and also my understanding that LE wanted surveillance from 0200-0500. E and X got home at 0145. Correct me if I am wrong. If the surveillance video camera was off by a few minutes, it would have picked up K and M entering the residence at 0156, but not E and X who entered at 0145?

 

[javi]

Is it possible that the camera picked up the car that dropped Kaylee & Maddie off, but if Xana and Ethan were walking it may have not picked them up?

I am extremely interested to know which house had that camera. Because one other thing which makes it highly interesting to me that a focus be put on Ethan and Xana--Xana is the only one I'm quite sure who had her bedroom lock changed one week before the murders. Her mother confirmed that. Why would she do that right at the end of the school term ?

 

[acutename]

Do his roommates sleep in his room with him? I find that very unlikely. I don't imagine many college age people still share a room, especially if off campus. Even in frats (unless very low in the totem pole).

Unless the roommate can say they are an exceptionally light sleeper, always, a sleeping roommate is not necessarily a good corroborator for an alibi - if I were LE, I'd want a bit more.

Hopefully it doesn't come down to weak alibis - a lot of people were probably believed to be sleeping or were actually sleeping that night.

By that, I mean, hopefully no evidence connected the ex-BF to the crime will be found or has been found. If so, his alibi should stand.

we really do not know how often or how recently any ex was in the house- not sure if there are pictures in victims' social media that LE has been reviewing

 

[BondGirl007]

There is a factor that to me eliminates a stalker or anyone who had "planned" to kill, especially if Kaylee or Ethan was his intended victim.

Kaylee had only come for the weekend to show her car and Ethan was not a resident there either, he was just staying the night. The killer would have had to be either incredibly knowledgeable about their schedules or be awfully lucky for them to be there that night.

This makes it much more logical to me that something triggered somebody that night, due to sometlhing that happened. This is why it is critical to know where Ethan and Xana were for the unaccounted-for time that nobody is able to confirm their whereabouts. Did they walk home ? Did they come with somebody in a car ? Did anybody go in the house with them ? Where did they enter the house ?

And I find it incredibly strange that Alivea said she saw video of a neighbor's security camera that captured Maddie and Kaylee returning home But yet to my knowledge that camera does not capture Ethan and Xana coming home. How is that possible ? Anyone going into that house would almost certainly approach from the front just like Maddie and Kaylee did when they were dropped off by the rideshare driver. Coming from the college you would still pass the front of the house even if you were going around to the back to go into the sliding door. Did they parachute in ?

Because the camera is positioned to show the uber driving up King but not X snd E walking up the path from the frat house.

 

[10ofRods]

we really do not know how often or how recently any ex was in the house- not sure if there are pictures in victims' social media that LE has been reviewing

It doesn't matter, really. If the ex is an ex, they are going to say they were in the house (roommates or not, the ex could have gone in the house and has a good reason to be in the house).

Which is why I'm saying that the DNA of familiar people (all the ex's and all the new bfs/gfs) cannot be used to rule them out except in the most rare of forensic circumstances. If I were the forensic DNA lead on this case, I'd be determined to show it can be done - but prepared for abject failure.

 

[Nova]

Yeah this doesn’t make sense. I don’t know any high school students with full-time jobs, and it’s impossible to have a full-time in college as a full-time student. Her obituary does state that but it seems a little confusing to me MOO

I held full-time jobs while a full-time student. I just didn't work 9 to 5, when classes were held. I worked 3 to 11 or 5 to 1.

 

[Jawds78]

I am extremely interested to know which house had that camera. Because one other thing which makes it highly interesting to me that a focus be put on Ethan and Xana--Xana is the only one I'm quite sure who had her bedroom lock changed one week before the murders. Her mother confirmed that. Why would she do that right at the end of the school term ?

Is it possible because she was renting and it was broken, dinged, whatever. Return it as you found it type of thing. JMO.

 

[layer]

@layer Sorry, could have been clearer in my post.

Point was --- linked article did NOT quote exBF JdC on HIS thoughts re likelihood of marriage, but some read it as his.
Did not quote JdC at all, IIRC.

Article quoted aunt who gave HER thoughts re marriage anticipation, which may or may not paralleled JdC's thoughts.

imo jmo moo

Yeah, my bad. I was actually agreeing with you. I meant to quote the post you had quoted.