ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #1

[shebear]

Oh sorry my bad. But even then , minnows dont stick around. I guess its just the wording of it kinda throws me.

 

[2Hope4]

As a parent, the only way Deorr could be alive is if someone took him, so I think I would want to believe that. Logically if he was abducted, maybe they are hoping to find a boot, shoe or foot print, anything to support that theory. Denial can be powerful especially if you're trying to protect yourself mentally, in a subconscious level.

Loving, caring parents wouldn't want to think or believe their precious baby is deceased. They likely would want to hold onto the last string of hope. Searching there is all they can do!! They know it's the last known location. If abducted, there's no physical location to search. Thus they must completely rule that area in or out.

Sadly I still feel he is in water, and likely the reservoir. Strength to this family.

Jmo

 

[2Hope4]

Why wouldn't minnows remain in the area??? This is nitpicky, IMO. Minnows has water, food etc in an area. We aren't talking days. Just a few minutes to walkback, get the kid, and walk back to the creek. I see no reason discount that.

 

[2Hope4]

Deorr is almost 3. Kids are fast at that age. My nephew just turned 3. He can run, climb, etc. Wouldn't take long to get out of sight.

The little girl that wandered into woods with a dog, not even dressed for the cold temps, and she was found alive....miracle to the searchers and doctors. Miles away. But she did!!!

 

[LayzeeDayzee]

Just watching Nancy Grace (previously aired today), it has the other lady show host (the one with the long darkish/red hair). I was half paying attention but she was interviewing someone (a male) in the know about this case.....and he did state that the great-grandfather's "friend" who was camping there with them was.........a MALE (not a woman like previously speculated). He also said that the g-grandfather has some "known health issues." He did state they are looking into this male friend, not as a person of interest but I guess who is he, his background/history, etc.

I thought this to be interesting. Just as I've wondered all along..........just how 'fit' and able was great-gramps (who had to at least be in his 70s) to be able to watch a curious and active little toddler.

This NG host is still reiterating info, not sure where she got it from, that the parents allege that they'd only been gone on their walk away from the campsite for 10-15 minutes when they returned to learn that Deorr was missing.

The NG host also reported that the child's parents have remained at the campsite, in a tent, while the search continues. Were they originally camping there in a tent? 4 adults and a little child all in a tent? ....in the woods with bears and mountain lions? Seems crazy to me. Any time I've camped (and it's been a lot) in known bear/mountain lion country, it was always in a travel trailer, you wouldn't dare catch me in a tent. I've been camping when a bear was in the campground in the night and the local fish/wildlife and campground manager would be going around campsite to campsite and instructing those in tents to ensure their food was stored in vehicle and best for them to sleep in their vehicle.

Also, IMO there has to be a valid reason why we know nothing about great-gramps......his age, his health status/mobility status, etc. If he was allegedly one of the last ppl to see this little boy then why the hell hasn't he been interviewed? How does one just 'refuse' to speak with the media? And why has the info about this "friend" of his been so hush-hush.......such that only now we're learning he was a male? All very odd if you ask me.

 

[Penelope]

Your sentence was clear, I just wanted to confirm that I understood it correctly.

So in these types of missing cases you found that it is very rare that the parents were involved in the child's disappearance. Do you think involvement of the parents is notably higher when children go missing in cities, for example?

I don't really consider myself an expert on these types of cases. All I can say is that, from what I have read and heard from David Paulides' books and recorded interviews, these types of disappearances usually do not involve parents as perpetrators (at least he does not believe so). I have sent him an email to see if he will comment about this.

 

[Satchie]

I would imagine the grandfather is devastated by guilt and shame that this happened, and feels it's his fault. The parents were probably very upset with him. I can see an older man getting caught up in conversation or whatever, and forget he's supposed to be watching his grandson. Perhaps the story about how he thought the boy was with his parents was an excuse, how could he possibly admit he wasn't paying attention?

To me, it's no different than someone getting distracted while driving and causing a fatal accident. More children are killed by car accidents than any other cause, yet people continue to take the risk of driving their child in a car and allowing them to walk near roads.

 

[Maiko]

Thanks - yes, that one worked. I imagine, from having camped up in the mountains around that area, that the stream and reservoir would be glacial runoff and still very cold, even in July. Therefore, it might take longer for a body to surface. Does anyone know what the approximate temperature in a lake there would be this time of year?

BBM - Anyone know the water temps for the creek and/or reservoir?

 

[Penelope]

in what way(s) does Paulides think that SAR search procedures need to change? I don't have time to read a whole book at the moment (and I imagine you would need to special order a book like this) so could you please give a brief summary of his suggestions? I'm curious.

I don't have the book with me (a friend has borrowed it), but from what I can remember:

- In typical searches, it is believed that a lost person, particularly a child, will usually go downhill. He has documented many occurrences where children will be found uphill from where they were lost. One child's body was found quite a distance away from where first lost, uphill in a place searchers would never have believed the child would have gotten to.

- Satchie posted the following quote from a Huffington Post article: "Small Children: Kids between ages one and six usually travel between 0.67 and 1.65 miles. The smallest ones between one and three, like Joshua Childers, have no idea they're lost. If they're separated from their parents, they have no ability to find their way; they wander aimlessly, and they typically don't go very far. They're usually found sleeping." From what I remember, Paulides believes that search areas for young children should be be widened beyond what is normally believed the distance can be for them to travel.

- Also, in some instances, the child's body is recovered from an area that had already been searched. He does not give any reasons why this would happen (the reader is left to come up with his/her own reason).

After reading just one of Paulides' books, I came away with the realization that there is some really strange things that are happening in America's and Canada's wilderness areas and that it is best to go hiking in groups and to never ever let children out of your sight, not even for a second. Now, when I go into the bush to harvest herbs, I always have a friend along and keep him or her in sight as best as I can.

 

[mom2four717]

2 year olds aren't going to stay and play somewhere because they have been told to. Unless GGpa was actively engaging Deorr, and helping him transition through a goodbye scene, I think his folks "sneaked" away from the campsite without saying goodbye to him. I suspect this would make Deorr want to find them and possibly toddle off on a mission.
I'm not trying to judge. Two year old "good byes" can be fierce and emotional.
Since his parents were only planning a short excursion it might seem reasonable.
Deorr must have been busy doing something his parents thought would hold his attention.

Poor little guy.

 

[TeganJeff]

Aren't they cadaver dogs? I think they said they brought cadaver dogs in? They would not be confused if they smelled something Deorr used, they wouldn't be concerned at all with any individual person, they will only search for scent of a decomposing body, any body.

In the article it states that they are tracking dogs, which are different than cadaver dogs. Although, some tracking dogs are cross trained as cadavers.


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[TeganJeff]

http://www.ktvb.com/story/news/local/idaho/2015/07/15/missing-boy-deorr-search-dogs/30209081/

The most recent news story I have read says that the search has ended up back at the reservoir, which is 4/10 of a mile away from the camp. The cadaver dogs are alerting to that area. Which, as the reporter points out, is not all that far away but also not right next door to the campsite. Do you think it's possible/probable he could have walked there himself? If so, I think it would have taken him far more time than the short time the parents say he was unaccounted for. Or... would he have had to be carried there by some person or animal? And why? It seems to me that even a very curious toddler would not naturally walk 4/10 of a mile AWAY from his family (if I am understanding the geography of the area right) through unfamiliar and daunting terrain all the way to a reservoir/lake that he had no idea was there. Mind you, he would not have a good sense of direction at his age. Possible? Or no?

They are "scent tracking" dogs, not cadavers. Cadavers only track the scent of decomp.


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[ElsaMaria]

Children are very attracted by water, so sadly I think....well, I don't wanna say it.
:-(

 

[jmcgladr]

I don't have the book with me (a friend has borrowed it), but from what I can remember:

- In typical searches, it is believed that a lost person, particularly a child, will usually go downhill. He has documented many occurrences where children will be found uphill from where they were lost. One child's body was found quite a distance away from where first lost, uphill in a place searchers would never have believed the child would have gotten to.

- Satchie posted the following quote from a Huffington Post article: "Small Children: Kids between ages one and six usually travel between 0.67 and 1.65 miles. The smallest ones between one and three, like Joshua Childers, have no idea they're lost. If they're separated from their parents, they have no ability to find their way; they wander aimlessly, and they typically don't go very far. They're usually found sleeping." From what I remember, Paulides believes that search areas for young children should be be widened beyond what is normally believed the distance can be for them to travel.

- Also, in some instances, the child's body is recovered from an area that had already been searched. He does not give any reasons why this would happen (the reader is left to come up with his/her own reason).

After reading just one of Paulides' books, I came away with the realization that there is some really strange things that are happening in America's and Canada's wilderness areas and that it is best to go hiking in groups and to never ever let children out of your sight, not even for a second. Now, when I go into the bush to harvest herbs, I always have a friend along and keep him or her in sight as best as I can.

Thank you for the information. In a way, this case reminds me of the Maureen "Anu" Kelly case, another case where the scent trail just stopped abruptly and no body or blood or anything was ever found. Although Anu was an adult (19) she was vulnerable due to other reasons (she went into the woods on a "spiritual quest," wearing only a fanny pack, at 5:00 in the afternoon and she was fairly petite). This case was from a few years back, near Vancouver, WA. It has never been solved. It would be interesting to check out the book you mention.

 

[ninij9]

I thinbk that is the most probable scenario: Deorr toddles off towards his parents....veers off to the creek area and falls down an embankment. He is under water before they know he is missing...


[ well, not technically because supposedly Grandpa knew he had vanished instantly, and apparently did nothing about it, just assumed a two year old was capable fo finding his way through a campground to his parents who had hiked ten minutes ahead... ]

Been biting my tongue in regards to Gramps. Almost severed it trying not to think of "friend". But still the creek is most likely. I remember the power of a babbling brook from when I was young and exploring. That's like candy to an inquisitive young toddler.
I would never have camped there with a 2 year old. Too impossible a site to make "baby safe."

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[ninij9]

FWIW, information I found from the link/video below:

00:17 - As far as the nearest store, this link shows a photo at 00:17 of "Stage Shop" which is the name of a convenience store I previously found when I tried to find names of the nearest store to the campground. It's located in Leadore on 100 Railroad. Since they showed a photo in the video of this store, I am "assuming" this may be the convenience store they were at.

01:57 (and a bit after this segment) - discussion about why an Amber Alert wasn't issued

02:14 - same photo of DeOrr I just asked about a few posts earlier. I wonder if that photo of DeOrr was taken the same day he went missing, because IF (and that's a BIG IF) it is the same day DeOrr went missing, 1) he is wearing different clothes, 2) he is by a large body of water (is this by the reservoir?), and 3) he is holding a ball. If the pic was taken the same day, I was wondering what time they went that close to the water (reservoir?) and if it may have been between 1 and 2, and then they all went back to the camp/tent/grandpa and at 2:00 maybe he toddled back to the area of the water - dropped his ball... chased after it... ? Then again, it may be from a different day, different camping outing.

02:41 - news reporter states: "...no evidence of a wild animal attack..." but then she added: "an adult sock was found in an area searched numerous times before..."

http://www.localnews8.com/news/search-contiunes-for-missing-two-year-old-in-lemhi-county/34110688

About the picture at resivoir, I thought dad said he didn't know it was at top if his campsite. That he didn't see it until he started his search for little Deorr?

Maybe they stopped there on the way in to campsite and pix taken. But they couldn't have walked there from campsite or the comment about not knowing what's up there doesn't make sense. I hope I'm making sense.

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[ninij9]

One thing is sticking out for me. In the interview the Dad says I went back to get little Deorr to show him "a minnow". I find that odd because he would've had to go 4/10 mile back to get him and then 4/10 back to the reservoir to show him "a minnow".
I don't know about you but "a minnow" is not going to be there when they get back. Minnows dont hang around like that and the wording of it just seems off .
Maybe I'm crazy but also in the beginning of the interview the wife sticks her tongue in her cheek and then when she glances at him I see that evil eye a wife gives a husband. She is glaring. Just finding it kinda off.
And then again I could be way over thinking it.

I think the minnows were in the creek which runs along campsite.

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[jmcgladr]

In the article it states that they are tracking dogs, which are different than cadaver dogs. Although, some tracking dogs are cross trained as cadavers.


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I have seen articles referring to the dogs in the latest search as "cadaver dogs" too though. For example, this article: http://www.nbcnews.com/dateline/ida...ve-days-after-wandering-away-campsite-n392776 "Lemhi County Sheriff Lynn Bowerman told Dateline divers were searched the Stone Reservoir Wednesday after cadaver dogs indicated there may be more there to find."

 

[SCHMAE]

Oh sorry my bad. But even then , minnows dont stick around. I guess its just the wording of it kinda throws me.

Most minnows travel in ' schools' I believe . Any time I've ever seen them, there were hundreds . They hang in very shallow areas so other fish cannot get to them so if you saw where they congregated it's likely where they would be if you look again. So ,grandpa may not have meant 1 particular minnow but saw there were schools of them and wanted to show the baby.

 

[jmcgladr]

BBM - Anyone know the water temps for the creek and/or reservoir?

Assuming "Big Timber Creek" is the same (location seems to match approximately), this site gives the maximum water temp near there (measured in June) as 17.0 Celsius, or 62.6 degrees Fahrenheit. http://waterdata.usgs.gov/nwis/dv?referred_module=sw&site_no=13304185 Note: These temps were taken in 1978 though, so with climate change, could possibly be a few degrees warmer now. Also, this is downstream a bit from Big Timber Creek, and it gets colder the further upstream you get in mountain creeks/streams.