ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #14

[Rayemonde]

Raymonde, your post said you thought the family was camping in the Rocky Mountains National Park. It said nothing about information on ML in the area where DeOrr went missing. Perhaps that was in a different post that is no longer here?

Here's some helpful information for you. You won't find another attack in that area any more than you would find multiple attacks in other areas. There is one exception that I am aware of in California, but children are no longer allowed in that area.

Now, as for numbers of mountain lions in that area . . . . No one knows because Idaho is the only state that refuses to release that information:

http://www.mountainlion.org/us/id/-id-portal.asp

Thanks for the interesting link. So Idaho has very lax laws on hunting mountain lions, and people from neighbouring States even travel to Idaho to hunt the lions if it's not allowed in their state. Idaho won't release the figures for how many mountain lions there are, becsuse they don't want to be criticised if the numbers are very low or falling due to excess hunting (according to the link). And -

Based on the limited information available, MLF's best guess places Idaho's mountain lion population closer to possibly 2,000 or less.

If there is such a lot of mountain lion hunting in Idaho, won't the lions be likely to avoid humans? If people go camping with the intention of killing mountain lions, you would think that the lions would avoid campsites and stay well away from humans. That could explain why there is no record of mountain lions attacking humans in the area that DeOrr disappeared in, if the lions there are scared of humans.

A toddler wandering far away from the campsite and adults might be another matter though, if a mountain lion came across him.

 

[EllieBee]

http://mountainlion.org/US/ID/ID_DO...tatus Report - 9th Mountian Lion Workshop.pdf

I cannot copy and paste because this is a pdf, but it states that there has only been one mountain lion attack on a human (ETA: forgot to say "in Idaho, duh) and that was a 13-year-old boy in 1999.

However, it appears this data is from 2009 or 10.

Lots of talk about hunting, tho. I mean that is what the report is mostly about.

 

[Angiebla]

Raymonde, your post said you thought the family was camping in the Rocky Mountains National Park. It said nothing about information on ML in the area where DeOrr went missing. Perhaps that was in a different post that is no longer here?

Here's some helpful information for you. You won't find another attack in that area any more than you would find multiple attacks in other areas. There is one exception that I am aware of in California, but children are no longer allowed in that area.

Now, as for numbers of mountain lions in that area . . . . No one knows because Idaho is the only state that refuses to release that information:

http://www.mountainlion.org/us/id/-id-portal.asp

Ohio is the same way about releasing information about "wild cats". Though they aren't indigineous to this state, several sitings have been made and there are way too many to be hoaxes.

The problem is any type of "wild" or "big" cat is generally evasive and reclusive by nature, so they are hard to track.

My question is: if a bear was spotted in the campground area, is it out of the realm of possibility that it is responsible for Deorrs disappearance?

 

[EllieBee]

Taking off the Mod hat here and speaking as a parent.

What is typical/atypical parent behaviour when a child is “lost”.

Who could ever believe it possible that you would forget significant details surrounding the disappearance of a child?

Many years ago my daughter died of SIDS. I have zero recollection of even one single detail of her funeral. The cause of SIDS is unknown so I have no answers, but I hear forever the words of others who tried to somehow find their answers by placing blame on us as young parents.

A few years later, I thought I was relating details of my daughter’s funeral to a friend. My mother overheard, and with a look of great concern, said to me “That is not <your daughter’s> funeral you are describing.”

When my son died years later, I was able to recall everything leading up to and after his death … everything except him ever being born.

Surely I am not the only grieving parent in the world who is atypical. I don’t know, but in my attempt to understand how anyone could be unable to remember such significant events, a psychiatrist explained that my memory was probably working very well … it has tried to protect me by deciding that sometimes things related to the loss of a child are just too traumatic.

Please try to give loved ones the benefit of the doubt when they cannot find the right words or precisely recall the intricacies surrounding Deorr’s disappearance.

Thank you for sharing your heartbreak here. I am sorry for your losses.

My mother lost two babies before I was born. One was stillborn, the other a preemie who lived only 12 hours. (He was 30 weeks, but this was in the early 60's, without the amazing medical technology we have now)

Anyway, they kept my mom in the hospital, doped to the gills for over a week in both cases. She did not attend the funerals for either of her babies. The doctors thought it wouldn't be good for her, and in fact tried to persuade my parents not to name either baby in case they wanted to "use" the name for a child down the road.

Thankfully, they did give both of those tiny souls names, but my mother always regretted that she did not argue with the doctors and attend those funerals. She said she felt robbed of being able to grieve, and experience the pain that she felt she had a right to. Most people would agree with her regret at not going to the funerals, but her reasoning and desire to feel that grief keenly might raise a few eyebrows....like "what kind of mother would WANT to make their pain worse?" Especially back in those days of "better living through pharmaceuticals".

I just wanted to share that story because it really is easy to say "no way, that is not normal" when really, nobody knows what their normal is until they live it. I hope I neverhave to.

And BTW, I am not talking about a Casey Anthony kind of reaction. Sorry, but I am Judgy Judgerson about that woman.......

 

[ClaireNC]

Totally agree... I didn't watch it once I realised that it was a hunting video

I was being serious with my question, by the way. Has anyone found any cases of mountain lions attacking or killing anyone in the area where DeOrr went missing? I have looked but couldn't find any. I couldn't find any records of how many mountain lions might be in the area, either.

Sorry I don't have a link because it is confidential research. I do market research for a company that produces hunting equipment. It is estimated that there are less than 2,000 mountain lions in all of Idaho. The population is densest in the northwest part of the state.

<modsnip>

 

[dek]

Katydid23: IDK about the openness in that area, I think there are plenty of shrubbery like plants/sage that gets pretty large etc so there is some ground cover...Now I know this particular area in SD is Not Close to where the campground is..but this shows you how stealthy a mountain lion is. And if I could bring over the picture I would. Anyone that knows how to please feel free

http://travel.nationalgeographic.co...azine/photo-contest/2012/entries/150465/view/
From this link.

"I took this photo after we were leaving the restaurant on a drive from Denver to Mt. Rushmore"
"Notice the mountain lion on the top of the restaurant? I didn't notice it until I looked at the photos."

Hmmmmmmmmmm, he was still there in the morning. Think it may be a taxidermy touristy ML. I thought it might be, so I searched for another pic.:thinking:&#8203;

 

[Arnie M]

Raymonde, your post (not this one, but the one you posted yesterday) said you thought the family was camping in the Rocky Mountains National Park. It said nothing about information on ML in the area where DeOrr went missing. Perhaps that was in a different post that is no longer here?

Here's some helpful information for you. You won't find another attack in that area any more than you would find multiple attacks in other areas. There is one exception that I am aware of in California, but children are no longer allowed in that area.

Now, as for numbers of mountain lions in that area . . . . No one knows because Idaho is the only state that refuses to release that information:

http://www.mountainlion.org/us/id/-id-portal.asp

Wait a second, I think I'm confused. I was thinking that the family were camping in the Rocky Mountain National Park but they weren't, were they - they were camping in the Salmon - Challis National Forest??

Just a note to say that the campground is indeed within The Rocky Mountains that begin in Northern B.C. Canada and run 3000 miles south to New Mexico.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocky_Mountains#/media/File:RockyMountainsLocatorMap.png

 

[kammiemc]

Taking off the Mod hat here and speaking as a parent.

What is typical/atypical parent behaviour when a child is &#8220;lost&#8221;.

Who could ever believe it possible that you would forget significant details surrounding the disappearance of a child?

Many years ago my daughter died of SIDS. I have zero recollection of even one single detail of her funeral. The cause of SIDS is unknown so I have no answers, but I hear forever the words of others who tried to somehow find their answers by placing blame on us as young parents.

A few years later, I thought I was relating details of my daughter&#8217;s funeral to a friend. My mother overheard, and with a look of great concern, said to me &#8220;That is not <your daughter&#8217;s> funeral you are describing.&#8221;

When my son died years later, I was able to recall everything leading up to and after his death &#8230; everything except him ever being born.

Surely I am not the only grieving parent in the world who is atypical. I don&#8217;t know, but in my attempt to understand how anyone could be unable to remember such significant events, a psychiatrist explained that my memory was probably working very well &#8230; it has tried to protect me by deciding that sometimes things related to the loss of a child are just too traumatic.

Please try to give loved ones the benefit of the doubt when they cannot find the right words or precisely recall the intricacies surrounding Deorr&#8217;s disappearance.

I am so sorry for your loss. And that others made it even more painful for you. I can't imagine. These parents seem grief-stricken. Grandma seems broken. The sheriff seems like he is haunted by this case.

Some people have certain theories of what happened to this little boy. I have NO idea what to think and my thoughts keep evolving with more information. And I admit, I am interested in all information. There are so many things that could have happened not involving humans, and if humans were involved, the parents were not the only people at the campsite or in the area. I hope the discussion will remain respectful and polite--not only to the victims, but also to each other So people with various perspectives (within TOS) can feel comfortable engaging. And, mostly, sheesh, I hope there is some closure soon.

 

[ILOKAL]

Just a note to say that the campground is indeed within The Rocky Mountains that begin in Northern B.C. Canada and run 3000 miles south to New Mexico.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocky_Mountains#/media/File:RockyMountainsLocatorMap.png

Rayemonde was referencing Rocky Mountain National Park, which is in Colorado, not Idaho.

 

[Suthrnqt]

<snipped>

Please try to give loved ones the benefit of the doubt when they cannot find the right words or precisely recall the intricacies surrounding Deorr’s disappearance.

]

RSBM

Oh sillybilly. My [emoji173] goes out to you and yours. :grouphug:
And I so agree with you......a little compassion never hurt anyone.

 

[Arnie M]

<snip> Oh, and for those who are so certain that FLIR would have "seen" any mountain lion in the area:

https://nixle.com/alert/5442230/

-As I have mentioned several times FLIR detects heat .
-In order to detect heat from a person or animal the ground must be cool
-In a hot climate the ground does not cool down until late at night
-The search was at 10:00 pm in a hot town full of hot pavement and hot sidewalks
-Pavement and sidewalks easily reach daytime temps of 120* f or higher and FLIR is never used
until everything cools down below that of warm blooded mammals,

(From the article) On Friday 6-26-15 at approximately 10:15 PM, San Mateo PD Officers responded to the area of Bellevue Ave. and Clark Dr. on a report of a possible mountain lion sighting. Officers arrived in the area and contacted witnesses who observed a large Mountain Lion estimated to weigh close to 100 pounds. The animal was last seen walking westbound on the 100 block of W. Poplar Avenue. The animal was not acting aggressive or predatory in any way. SMPD units, with the assistance of The San Mateo County Sheriff’s Office Air Unit, searched the area using thermal vision equipment (FLIR) but were unsuccessful in locating the animal. At that time the California Department of Fish & Wildlife were immediately notified of the incident but were not available to respond.

 

[ILOKAL]

-As I have mentioned several times FLIR detects heat .
-In order to detect heat from a person or animal the ground must be cool
-In a hot climate the ground does not cool down until late at night
-The search was at 10:00 pm in a hot town full of hot pavement and hot sidewalks
-Pavement and sidewalks easily reach daytime temps of 120* f or higher and FLIR is never used
until everything cools down below that of warm blooded mammals,

(From the article) On Friday 6-26-15 at approximately 10:15 PM, SaJn Mateo PD Officers responded to the area of Bellevue Ave. and Clark Dr. on a report of a possible mountain lion sighting. Officers arrived in the area and contacted witnesses who observed a large Mountain Lion estimated to weigh close to 100 pounds. The animal was last seen walking westbound on the 100 block of W. Poplar Avenue. The animal was not acting aggressive or predatory in any way. SMPD units, with the assistance of The San Mateo County Sheriff&#8217;s Office Air Unit, searched the area using thermal vision equipment (FLIR) but were unsuccessful in locating the animal. At that time the California Department of Fish & Wildlife were immediately notified of the incident but were not available to respond.

What about when they used FLIR at Timber Creek?

 

[neesaki]

What a beautiful animal. I will never, until the day I die, understand how killing such a creature can be determined as a "sport" :cry:

I can't even stand to watch it.

 

[Arnie M]

What about when they used FLIR at Timber Creek?

Late at night

 

[Rayemonde]

Hmmmmmmmmmm, he was still there in the morning. Think it may be a taxidermy touristy ML. I thought it might be, so I searched for another pic.:thinking:&#8203;

:silly:
Very well spotted! Just goes to show, don't believe everything you read on the internet

 

[MJ1960]

Ohio is the same way about releasing information about "wild cats". Though they aren't indigineous to this state, several sitings have been made and there are way too many to be hoaxes.

The problem is any type of "wild" or "big" cat is generally evasive and reclusive by nature, so they are hard to track.

My question is: if a bear was spotted in the campground area, is it out of the realm of possibility that it is responsible for Deorrs disappearance?

I second the bear question. Is that a possibility? I'm trying to look this up but haven't gotten far as I am multitasking with work and children at the moment. Anyone have knowledge or resources on bear attacks?

 

[giagreen]

Does Idaho have grizzly bears? I don't think a black bear would attack unless if DeOrr stumbled upon some cubs. Black bears really are not that mean.
And bears are really not to graceful lol their kinda cute how clumsy they are.
Now I bear I think they'd actually hear unless if it happen far from camp.

 

[neesaki]

Katydid23: IDK about the openness in that area, I think there are plenty of shrubbery like plants/sage that gets pretty large etc so there is some ground cover...Now I know this particular area in SD is Not Close to where the campground is..but this shows you how stealthy a mountain lion is. And if I could bring over the picture I would. Anyone that knows how to please feel free

http://travel.nationalgeographic.co...azine/photo-contest/2012/entries/150465/view/
From this link.

"I took this photo after we were leaving the restaurant on a drive from Denver to Mt. Rushmore"
"Notice the mountain lion on the top of the restaurant? I didn't notice it until I looked at the photos."

That's amazing, on top of a restaurant. Wow.

 

[kammiemc]

Thanks for the interesting link. So Idaho has very lax laws on hunting mountain lions, and people from neighbouring States even travel to Idaho to hunt the lions if it's not allowed in their state. Idaho won't release the figures for how many mountain lions there are, becsuse they don't want to be criticised if the numbers are very low or falling due to excess hunting (according to the link). And -



If there is such a lot of mountain lion hunting in Idaho, won't the lions be likely to avoid humans? If people go camping with the intention of killing mountain lions, you would think that the lions would avoid campsites and stay well away from humans. That could explain why there is no record of mountain lions attacking humans in the area that DeOrr disappeared in, if the lions there are scared of humans.

A toddler wandering far away from the campsite and adults might be another matter though, if a mountain lion came across him.

I dunno how helpful this very unscientific info will be, but my family lives about 100 directly north of Leadore--Bitterroot mountains. Same terrain, etc.
Mtn lions are rare sightings (unless taxidermied in restaurants and casinos!) and attacks are rarer, but they DO happen. I recall hearing of a few growing up (I was slightly obsessed with them for some reason). Here is a clipping of an attack on a 5-year-old from 1989. (Just slightly north-er in Missoula.)I also recall a cougar attack on a kid walking with his classmates on a nature walk, and a woman jogging getting attacked. And my bro claims one stalked him when he was fishing and that his dog scared him off.
Sadly the last animal attack on a child in that area that I can recall was a Coyote. Those guys are aggressive. We have them on the ranch and chase our dogs and we can never let the kids out alone.
View attachment 83433

ETA: I just want to point out that I realize this post is totally unreadable. It might as well be on microfiche. Anyway, it says that it was a mother lion with her cubs.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[neesaki]

I thought the same thing. Yes mountain lions can be stealthy, but they don't have secret powers of invisibility - especially when they're slowed down by dragging away a toddler. There are plenty of youtube videos of people being stalked by mountain lions that can clearly be seen. I noticed in YouTube videos that they did drag their prey too, I'm not convinced that one could actually carry a toddler away unless it was a particularly large lion. If it had him by the head or throat, his legs would be dragging along the ground at least.

I found one one person who had ever been killed by a mountain lion in Rocky Mountain - it was at the edge of Summer land Park. I posted the link in the last thread. A ten year old boy who ran ahead of his parents and was attacked by an adult female mountain lion. He attempted to fight her off but choked on his own vomit. She was scared off by the parents as she attempts to drag him away, but returned later and attacked the man guarding the body, and was shot and killed.

I also found mountain lion fatality in Idaho Falls, where Deorr's family live. He was a lone jogger. I wondered if DeOrr's family ever heard of that case and if they were aware of the danger they pose, especially to small children.

I was actually genuinely concerned about the smallish dog shown running loose at the campsite - if there are bold mountain lions there, the dog looked like an ideal target for an attack. Plus all of the searchers up there - if there is a mountain lion there who has already eaten a child, surely it will be likely to attack a human again.

I don't remember seeing that about the one from Idaho Falls, do you mind guiding me to the article or even posting the link? Would greatly appreciate. Thanks, Rayemonde. Or, when I get a chance I'll try to find it myself. If you don't have the time I totally understand. TIA