ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #14

[Arnie M]

.

Not sure why the sheriff keeps getting picked on , it was a large group of experienced searchers who did all the initial work , and they did it for weeks and weeks by the sound of it. To bring in a bunch of random public searchers or a PI would have accomplished what ??? If I had to pick any theory it would be that DeOrr got lost in the woods and nobody found him. Likely as simple as that.

 

[Rayemonde]

.

Not sure why the sheriff keeps getting picked on , it was a large group of experienced searchers who did all the initial work , and they did it for weeks and weeks by the sound of it. To bring in a bunch of random public searchers or a PI would have accomplished what ??? If I had to pick any theory it would be that DeOrr got lost in the woods and nobody found him. Likely as simple as that.

Yes, but then wouldn't it make sense to allow volunteers in now, rather than discouraging them? If DeOrr died there on the mountain there's probably something still left to find. A least that would give his family closure. If DeOrr died on the mountain then searching the mountain is the only way to solve the case.

 

[Sillybilly]

It's frustrating that little Deorr hasn't been found, but we're not here to bash the Sheriff. Please stop the slagging/derogatory/speculatory comments and stick to discussing the facts of the case.

There are many cases where missing persons are not located for a very long time for whatever reasons.


:tyou:

 

[kammiemc]

That's a bit harsh.

We can only go by what he tells us (and by "us" I mean the general public who aren't in LE) but I doubt he's told us everything he knows.

That's a bit harsh.

We can only go by what he tells us (and by "us" I mean the general public who aren't in LE) but I doubt he's told us everything he knows.

I completely agree, Purplepixii, and IMO, I definitely believe the latter is possible, meaning the sheriff has been working with the FBI and did exactly what he said was gonna do in the radio interview: head to IF that following week and determine next steps. I think it's possible that he knows waaaaaaaaaay more than he has disclosed publicly. I believe it is possible that we will find out shortly where this ongoing investigation is headed. And I think people (not speaking specifically about people on this thread) who have been derogatory about the sheriff will be surprised that they just might have been completely and totally wrong about what they have been so vocal about.

In the cases I've followed (not saying I've followed tons, but a big handful at least) it is very common for LE to be quiet while investigating sensitive information and building charges that are strong enough to hold up in court. To assume silence means LE is not smart or not doing their jobs is definitely not always a wise assumption. It's like saying just because you can't see the chef making your dinner in the back of the kitchen and he's not yelling out play-by-plays to the customers ("now I'm boiling the water for the pasta!"), it's not happening.

This happened in the Teresa Sievers case. The sheriff was mums the word for a long time and people started poking at him, saying he had been full of hot air at the beginning, etc. And you know what, there came two arrests out of the blue.

And, we know very well at this point, this isn't some rinky dink one-man show. This is now an investigation that involves the FBI and LE and is led out of Idaho Falls. There is a reason for that. So, while it might seem easy to poke at the sheriff just because all this time has gone by, you kind of have to poke at all of them. That's a it harder to do, isn't it?

 

[Aleph]

He may not want anyone to search there right now because it's too dangerous at this time of year. People are less likely to find anything under ice and snow, anyway.

Just my speculation.


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[Rayemonde]

He may not want anyone to search there right now because it's too dangerous at this time of year. People are less likely to find anything under ice and snow, anyway.

Just my speculation

That would make perfect sense, but it was before the bad weather that he was stopping people from searching. That's why I don't understand it. I hope he will change his mind next year and someone will organise a new massive search when the weather is good enough.

 

[Onebest]

.

Not sure why the sheriff keeps getting picked on , it was a large group of experienced searchers who did all the initial work , and they did it for weeks and weeks by the sound of it. To bring in a bunch of random public searchers or a PI would have accomplished what ??? If I had to pick any theory it would be that DeOrr got lost in the woods and nobody found him. Likely as simple as that.

I hope it doesn't sound negative like he is being picked. It is very difficult to tell "tone" in an email. I mean NO disrespect to him at all! or the fine search teams that combed the area. Its just highly probably they missed something, it happens all the time to the best of us. And yes, you could very well be correct he got lost and not found so wouldn't it make sense to keep looking for some little smudge of evidence if that is what happened? Sometimes its random hunters, walkers, campers or? that discover something. Another search team with fresh eyes can be successful. We have seen it happen.

I am still wondering about the PI myself. I guess I get too mental about this stuff but it seems like it will be a major task to coordinate what has already been investigated and compare it to any new leads coming in. Are they from the same source, are they really "new"? What answer is the correct one? What happens if the PI and LE disagree? I wonder how the PI will be able to work effectively and not waste valuable and seriously expensive time on obvious dead ends. How will he actually know its a dead end? For this reason, I hope he works really closely with LE and they are able to collaborate but I wonder......is this even possible?

jmo....

 

[Mickshawn]

I hope it doesn't sound negative like he is being picked. It is very difficult to tell "tone" in an email. I mean NO disrespect to him at all! or the fine search teams that combed the area. Its just highly probably they missed something, it happens all the time to the best of us. And yes, you could very well be correct he got lost and not found so wouldn't it make sense to keep looking for some little smudge of evidence if that is what happened? Sometimes its random hunters, walkers, campers or? that discover something. Another search team with fresh eyes can be successful. We have seen it happen.

I am still wondering about the PI myself. I guess I get too mental about this stuff but it seems like it will be a major task to coordinate what has already been investigated and compare it to any new leads coming in. Are they from the same source, are they really "new"? What answer is the correct one? What happens if the PI and LE disagree? I wonder how the PI will be able to work effectively and not waste valuable and seriously expensive time on obvious dead ends. How will he actually know its a dead end? For this reason, I hope he works really closely with LE and they are able to collaborate but I wonder......is this even possible?

jmo....

I, too, wonder about LE and the PI working together. Wouldn't it be to everyone's advantage to "team up" and share info? I cannot imagine that there's any competitiveness for info in a situation like this. Doesn't everyone have the same goal in mind?

 

[Onebest]

I, too, wonder about LE and the PI working together. Wouldn't it be to everyone's advantage to "team up" and share info? I cannot imagine that there's any competitiveness for info in a situation like this. Doesn't everyone have the same goal in mind?

I would like to see them team up but the path to reach the end goal (finding Deoor) has to a path full of opinions and I would imagine there is some ego involved. It is just human emotion, had to control that all the time. As far as I can tell from the outside looking in, this is a very complicated case. When it comes down to judgement calls which one is going to be "right" and which one "wrong". I just don't know Mickshawn...
jmo

 

[Rayemonde]

I guess an ethical PI would have the same aim as LE. But realistically, a PI's aim is to make a living - make money. I guess it depends on who is paying the PI, too, and which direction they want the investigation to go in. If they suspected someone, or were convinced that DeOrr was adopted and is living a new life in another state, they wouldn't want the PI to spend all their time on the mountain sifting through Mountain Lion scat, for example. And since they are paying, I presume that they would have an influence on which direction the investigation goes - otherwise they would just pull the plug and stop paying.

Can anyone think of a case similar to this one where a PI has been instrumental in solving the case? I can only think of ones where a PI hasn't progressed the case, or ones that were actual frauds who lied to the family to keep the money coming in. But of course they can't all be like that, they're probably just the ones that have stuck in my mind.

 

[ILOKAL]

I guess an ethical PI would have the same aim as LE. But realistically, a PI's aim is to make a living - make money. I guess it depends on who is paying the PI, too, and which direction they want the investigation to go in. If they suspected someone, or were convinced that DeOrr was adopted and is living a new life in another state, they wouldn't want the PI to spend all their time on the mountain sifting through Mountain Lion scat, for example. And since they are paying, I presume that they would have an influence on which direction the investigation goes - otherwise they would just pull the plug and stop paying.

Can anyone think of a case similar to this one where a PI has been instrumental in solving the case? I can only think of ones where a PI hasn't progressed the case, or ones that were actual frauds who lied to the family to keep the money coming in. But of course they can't all be like that, they're probably just the ones that have stuck in my mind.

Also realistically speaking, the ultimate goal of LE is to make a living - make money, IMO. But there's nothing "wrong" with that, as long as it's not cloaked as something more.

 

[Rayemonde]

Sabrina Allen is one that got a lot of press coverage. She was abducted by her Non-custodial mother and taken to Mexico.

When the case of missing child Sabrina Allen went cold, the girl's father turned to private investigator Philip Klein to help bring her home.

Now, 12 years after she went missing -- and nine years after Klein agreed to take on the case -- Allen, 17, is back home in the United States.
"Phil's role was huge," Greg Allen, the girl's father, told ABC News' Austin affiliate KVUE in an interview on Wednesday. "He helped manage all of it, took the heat off."

http://abcnews.go.com/US/meet-priva...d-find-sabrina-allen-mexico/story?id=25942993

Sabrina Allen has a thread here:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?1320-TX-Sabrina-Allen-4-Austin-21-April-2002

 

[kammiemc]

That would make perfect sense, but it was before the bad weather that he was stopping people from searching. That's why I don't understand it. I hope he will change his mind next year and someone will organise a new massive search when the weather is good enough.

Is it possible that one explanation is that LE/FBI have reason to believe little DeOrr isn't on the mountain, beyond simply not having found a trace of him? That would align with the idea of the sheriff advising against organized searches. In that case, IMO it would only be responsible for him to advise against people spending their time and money where it wouldn't help find the little boy. Regardless of weather. Though I imagine he certainly wouldn't to see people put themselves in danger needlessly. IMO JMO. My best speculation.



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[kammiemc]

I, too, wonder about LE and the PI working together. Wouldn't it be to everyone's advantage to "team up" and share info? I cannot imagine that there's any competitiveness for info in a situation like this. Doesn't everyone have the same goal in mind?

I think without a doubt, LE and now this new PI want little DeOrr found.

In general though, I bet it is a bit complicated, depending on who hires a PI and why, as well as where an investigation stands with LE.

They could be working at cross-purposes.

If my bank gets robbed and I (and LE) are thinking my teller might have been in on it, but then my teller hires a PI, there is an inherent conflict of interest--no matter how unbiased that PI may be. Wouldn't he have some accountability/loyalty/obligation to the teller who hired him to exhaust all other possibilities?


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[kammiemc]

Also realistically speaking, the ultimate goal of LE is to make a living - make money, IMO. But there's nothing "wrong" with that, as long as it's not cloaked as something more.

LE is not paid by a specific party involved in (or even simply being investigated in) a case. That would seem to be a difference between LE and a PI in their motivation to be objective, but that is totally just my opinion.

Added: unless LE is involved in terrible nefarious things involving politics, conspiracy, etc., which I think we can all agree is NOT the case here. Unless FBI is in on it too. (Yeah, right.)


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[ILOKAL]

LE is not paid by a specific party involved in (or even simply being investigated in) a case. That would seem to be a difference between LE and a PI in their motivation to be objective, but that is totally just my opinion.

Added: unless LE is involved in terrible nefarious things involving politics, conspiracy, etc., which I think we can all agree is NOT the case here. Unless FBI is in on it too. (Yeah, right.)


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Gee, I hope you realize I made a general statement in response to what I thought to also be a general statement. My statement certainly isn't particular to this case. Having said that, your add on doesn't apply.

 

[desert-blue]

Wouldn't the PI have to report back to his (paying) client(s)? Even if they fired him, wouldn't he be obligated to hand over his file to them? (unless there is something contrary in the contract, I suppose) The more I think about it, the more I think that LE cannot share information with the PI in this case - the PI's client(s) are POI's in an ongoing investigation. It seems to me that anything that LE shared with the PI could potentially travel back to his clients (and seriously jeopardize the investigation). It would also be a total conflict of interest for the PI - he cannot be loyal to LE and to his clients at the same time, IMO. If the clients were not POI's, I think I'd feel differently. MOO.

 

[MBK]

Wouldn't the PI have to report back to his (paying) client(s)? Even if they fired him, wouldn't he be obligated to hand over his file to them? (unless there is something contrary in the contract, I suppose) The more I think about it, the more I think that LE cannot share information with the PI in this case - the PI's client(s) are POI's in an ongoing investigation. It seems to me that anything that LE shared with the PI could potentially travel back to his clients (and seriously jeopardize the investigation). It would also be a total conflict of interest for the PI - he cannot be loyal to LE and to his clients at the same time, IMO. If the clients were not POI's, I think I'd feel differently. MOO.

If a PI hired to find a "missing" child were to find out that the person/ people who hired him was in fact involved in the disappearance/ death of that child, I would HOPE that he would immediately talk to LE. That last sentence was entirely rhetorical and not meant to be an interpretation of this particular case.

 

[desert-blue]

If a PI hired to find a "missing" child were to find out that the person/ people who hired him was in fact involved in the disappearance/ death of that child, I would HOPE that he would immediately talk to LE. That last sentence was entirely rhetorical and not meant to be an interpretation of this particular case.

I would certainly hope so, but that brings us full circle and back to the fact that the PI gets paid by the client...

 

[ILOKAL]

I would certainly hope so, but that brings us full circle and back to the fact that the PI gets paid by the client...

Perhaps that might indicate that a guilty person wouldn't hire a PI.