ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #15

[desert-blue]

Did you "expect" his scent to be found? What conclusion do you draw because DeOrr's scent wasn't found?

Yes, I would expect his scent to be at the campsite if he was there for an extended period of time. I don't know what conclusion to draw about his scent not being there. It's confusing to me.

 

[desert-blue]

Do we know for a fact that they camped at that exact campsite on Thursday night? I'm just really hung up on why the dogs didn't detect DeOrr's scent at the campsite. This, combined with Klein's use of "on or near the mountain," makes me wonder if there could be a secondary location?

I wish that Isaac and GGPA's accounts weren't secret. If all four of their statements generally agreed with each other, there wouldn't be so much doubt about the timeline. But, I guess if we had everyone's 100% honest accounting of what happened that day, DeOrr may have been found already. Maybe, anyway.

 

[iluvmua]

I have my own thoughts about what happened.

 

[iluvmua]

Do we know for a fact that they camped at that exact campsite on Thursday night? I'm just really hung up on why the dogs didn't detect DeOrr's scent at the campsite. This, combined with Klein's use of "on or near the mountain" makes me wonder if there could be a secondary location?

I wish that Isaac and GGPA's accounts weren't secret. If all four of their statements generally agreed with each other, there wouldn't be so much doubt about the timeline. But, I guess if we had everyone's 100% honest accounting of what happened that day, DeOrr may have been found already found. Maybe, anyway.

It's possible that something happened before they even went camping and that is why they can't find his scent anywhere.

jmo

 

[ILOKAL]

Yes, I would expect his scent to be at the campsite if he was there for an extended period of time. I don't know what conclusion to draw about his scent not being there. It's confusing to me.

In the case of little Noah in TN who was found yesterday, the dogs couldn't find his scent either until just before he was found and searchers knew exactly where he was last seen. Knowledgeable posters stated that small children leave very little scent, and of course, the dogs aren't infallible.

 

[ILOKAL]

Do we know for a fact that they camped at that exact campsite on Thursday night? I'm just really hung up on why the dogs didn't detect DeOrr's scent at the campsite. This, combined with Klein's use of "on or near the mountain," makes me wonder if there could be a secondary location?

I wish that Isaac and GGPA's accounts weren't secret. If all four of their statements generally agreed with each other, there wouldn't be so much doubt about the timeline. But, I guess if we had everyone's 100% honest accounting of what happened that day, DeOrr may have been found already. Maybe, anyway.

I don't think there's been any reason to believe we don't HAVE everyone's 100% honest accounting, which is likely why DeOrr hasn't been found. It just can't be both ways. If he's on the mountain and the same people who expect searchers and or dogs to have found a shoe, clothing, or a toy had he wandered away or been taken away by an animal, don't also expect them to have found a freshly dug grave, then there's a problem.

 

[desert-blue]

I don't think there's been any reason to believe we don't HAVE everyone's 100% honest accounting, which is likely why DeOrr hasn't been found. It just can't be both ways. If he's on the mountain and the same people who expect searchers and or dogs to have found a shoe, clothing, or a toy had he wandered away or been taken away by an animal, don't also expect them to have found a freshly dug grave, then there's a problem.

The problem is that "on the mountain" is a very large area. I'd expect DeOrr's scent to be found at or near the campsite but a "freshly dug grave" could have been quite far from the campsite (well outside the search radius) so that could explain why the searchers and dogs didn't find it.

 

[desert-blue]

It's possible that something happened before they even went camping and that is why they can't find his scent anywhere.

jmo

I have wondered that too, but Klein seems to think he was there on Friday. He didn't say whether he was alive or not, though, so I guess it's possible. Would the cadaver dogs have been able to pick up anything? (Or do you think he did not come on the trip at all?)

 

[Dee10]

Do we know for a fact that they camped at that exact campsite on Thursday night? I'm just really hung up on why the dogs didn't detect DeOrr's scent at the campsite. This, combined with Klein's use of "on or near the mountain," makes me wonder if there could be a secondary location?

I wish that Isaac and GGPA's accounts weren't secret. If all four of their statements generally agreed with each other, there wouldn't be so much doubt about the timeline. But, I guess if we had everyone's 100% honest accounting of what happened that day, DeOrr may have been found already. Maybe, anyway.

I agree but there still seems to be a pesky issue with some or all of the polys, at both the State & Federal level according to Klein. Then add whatever the forensic and physical evidence show.

 

[ILOKAL]

I have wondered that too, but Klein seems to think he was there on Friday. He didn't say whether he was alive or not, though, so I guess it's possible. Would the cadaver dogs have been able to pick up anything? (Or do you think he did not come on the trip at all?)

Klein doesn't know if DeOrr was there on Friday, much less whether he was dead or alive, but as long as you think he does, that's all that matters (to him). IMVHO

 

[Lilibet]

Having followed a lot of cases on WS, I expect two things from the loved ones of missing persons of any age:

*Total and transparent cooperation with LE.

*No loud whining about how MSM or SM is treating them.

In other words, their focus is completely on their loved one, not on themselves. If they can't do this, I start wondering.

I believe that DK and JM have done pretty well as far as I can tell. Although there are some areas that concern me in the initial interview, they have cooperated with LE, searched extensively for DeOrr, and I've heard more criticism of SM and MSM from others in their circle than from them (maybe I've missed something). At this point, they haven't flunked my personal sniff test, based on what I've observed.

IMO It's a serious thing to point fingers at the parents of a missing child. I see it too often on SM. I'd rather be wrong in not suspecting them than to be responsible for causing them pain on top of pain if they are innocent of any wrong-doing. Compassion trumps sleuthing IMO.

 

[ILOKAL]

The problem is that "on the mountain" is a very large area. I'd expect DeOrr's scent to be found at or near the campsite but a "freshly dug grave" could have been quite far from the campsite (well outside the search radius) so that could explain why the searchers and dogs didn't find it.

We've learned that we shouldn't expect DeOrr's scent to be at or near the campsite. You're really expecting a lot to believe the reason the dogs and searchers wouldn't have found a newly dug grave is because it was well outside the search radius. Although we're not talking about a lot of time for DeOrr to have disappeared, you're expecting the guilty party to have either accidentally or intentionally killed DeOrr and then during a fairly brief period of time, dug a grave and buried DeOrr well beyond the three mile radius and back again, totally undetected?

 

[AbbeyBabbey]

I found this interesting:

"Did the store clerk at the Stage Stop actually see Deorr or was it implied he was there? Was she able to give a description of Deorr?
Like6Reply · More · Jan 11
Klein Investigations and Consulting
We will not comment on the witness statement at this time."

https://m.facebook.com/comment/repl...ntifier=937132659702652&gfid=AQDVlnSCqH222etW

I have been wanting to point this out since Klein's statement about this but just yesterday got approved to post (long-time lurker). Ilokal was the only other poster who also made note of this. IMO, Klein inadvertently exposed who the witness who came forward with previously withheld information is. He would not have used "...THE witness statement..." if he was speaking about another statement he was able to obtain - the statement was made as he was being grilled about the new witness statement. I remember that the store clerk was reluctant to speak to anyone about what she witnessed. I have a developing theory about this that I will post later and it will be in response to another very interesting post that I just read.

 

[ILOKAL]

Having followed a lot of cases on WS, I expect two things from the loved ones of missing persons of any age:

*Total and transparent cooperation with LE.

*No loud whining about how MSM or SM is treating them.

In other words, their focus is completely on their loved one, not on themselves. If they can't do this, I start wondering.

I believe that DK and JM have done pretty well as far as I can tell. Although there are some areas that concern me in the initial interview, they have cooperated with LE, searched extensively for DeOrr, and I've heard more criticism of SM and MSM from others in their circle than from them (maybe I've missed something). At this point, they haven't flunked my personal sniff test, based on what I've observed.

IMO It's a serious thing to point fingers at the parents of a missing child. I see it too often on SM. I'd rather be wrong in not suspecting them than to be responsible for causing them pain on top of pain if they are innocent of any wrong-doing. Compassion trumps sleuthing IMO.

My thanks button just isn't enough. Although we don't always agree on everything, I absolutely agree with everything you've said here, and I so much appreciate you for saying it.

 

[giagreen]

Is it possible that the parents left DeOrr with GGPA and Isaac when they went into town and then when they came back they couldn't find DeOrr? Maybe they didn't want to admit to leaving their child with two people who possibly aren't the best caretakers? I'm not sure how it could go from that to a massive cover-up, is the only thing. I would think the parents' concern over finding their son (and if someone harmed him, seeing that that person was held accountable) would override any fear of telling the truth that they left their child with GGPA and Isaac. I guess this scenario probably doesn't make sense.

ETA: Also, no scent of DeOrr was found, so I think I'll have to abandon this theory...

I've thought this very same thing. It doesn't make sense unless if IR is saying they took DeOrr to the store then when they got back they all went to the fishing spot. And lE has two diffrent storys and that's why the time stamp and what IR was doing that hour they were looking for DeOrr isn't being publicly shared. But idk that's just kinda speculating things that I don't actually know to make it fit so its probably not the case.

 

[Lilibet]

Great first post! I look forward to more. Welcome!

:welcome:

I have been wanting to point this out since Klein's statement about this but just yesterday got approved to post (long-time lurker). Ilokal was the only other poster who also made note of this. IMO, Klein inadvertently exposed who the witness who came forward with previously withheld information is. He would not have used "...THE witness statement..." if he was speaking about another statement he was able to obtain - the statement was made as he was being grilled about the new witness statement. I remember that the store clerk was reluctant to speak to anyone about what she witnessed. I have a developing theory about this that I will post later and it will be in response to another very interesting post that I just read.

 

[Lilibet]

My thanks button just isn't enough. Although we don't always agree on everything, I absolutely agree with everything you've said here, and I so much appreciate you for saying it.

Thanks! Yes, we've had our "moments" LOL, but for this moment I think we are in sync on a great deal. I very much appreciate your nuanced comments pulling us back from the edge.

 

[AbbeyBabbey]

Is it possible that the parents left DeOrr with GGPA and Isaac when they went into town and then when they came back they couldn't find DeOrr? Maybe they didn't want to admit to leaving their child with two people who possibly aren't the best caretakers? I'm not sure how it could go from that to a massive cover-up, is the only thing. I would think the parents' concern over finding their son (and if someone harmed him, seeing that that person was held accountable) would override any fear of telling the truth that they left their child with GGPA and Isaac. I guess this scenario probably doesn't make sense.

ETA: Also, no scent of DeOrr was found, so I think I'll have to abandon this theory...

Wow! You just triggered a possible scenario for me that would make perfect sense and explain EVERYTHING (see my first post). I would not abandon or discount your thoughts so quickly, as you did in your ETA. IF there was a dirty diaper (a very pungent and strong scent of DeOrr) at the campsite and the dogs didn't hit on it, I have little reason to believe that the dogs were good enough to track Deorr.

 

[ILOKAL]

I have been wanting to point this out since Klein's statement about this but just yesterday got approved to post (long-time lurker). Ilokal was the only other poster who also made note of this. IMO, Klein inadvertently exposed who the witness who came forward with previously withheld information is. He would not have used "...THE witness statement..." if he was speaking about another statement he was able to obtain - the statement was made as he was being grilled about the new witness statement. I remember that the store clerk was reluctant to speak to anyone about what she witnessed. I have a developing theory about this that I will post later and it will be in response to another very interesting post that I just read.

Welcome to WS! I look forward to reading your developing theory.

 

[giagreen]

Having followed a lot of cases on WS, I expect two things from the loved ones of missing persons of any age:

*Total and transparent cooperation with LE.

*No loud whining about how MSM or SM is treating them.

In other words, their focus is completely on their loved one, not on themselves. If they can't do this, I start wondering.

I believe that DK and JM have done pretty well as far as I can tell. Although there are some areas that concern me in the initial interview, they have cooperated with LE, searched extensively for DeOrr, and I've heard more criticism of SM and MSM from others in their circle than from them (maybe I've missed something). At this point, they haven't flunked my personal sniff test, based on what I've observed.

IMO It's a serious thing to point fingers at the parents of a missing child. I see it too often on SM. I'd rather be wrong in not suspecting them than to be responsible for causing them pain on top of pain if they are innocent of any wrong-doing. Compassion trumps sleuthing IMO.

I've always said the same thing. I'd rather be wrong about a mountain lion or any other theory then find out down the road that I took part in hurting innocent parents of a missing child. But I love the way you put it.
Compassion trumps sleuthing.

I was reading about sm over in Noahs case. Its all pretty sad. To me....imo jm and dk have done everything I'd expect them to. And even when Klein came out with his first statment they still continued to have their fund raiser and didn't even seem to think twice about what Klein had said. Idk to me that's what I'd do if it where my child.